Angela Abused: A second take (POLL)

[nur_ein_tier]

Anyway, I'm behind on real life stuff so I can't get as far into this as I'd like, but this is what Blaustein said when I asked specifically about PH:
"JB: Sexual abuse and incest is not a subject that had been broached in video games to that point." (More in regards to Angela, but still relevant)

JB " SH2 is all about the monstrous sides of people."
Me: " ...there is still the debate on whether or not Pyramid head is raping or nonsexually torturing the monsters."
JB "Ridiculous, The intention is clear and no thinking person would seriously argue that point. The SH team would laugh."

Again, haven't had time to edit this and write a coherent article around this interview, and I won't until I get done with my work assignments for the week. Argh.

And what amphreded said: just because a scene is shocking doesn't mean it's "low class" or has no point or whatever. It is my understanding that they wanted the game to be shocking.

[alone in the town]

JB "Ridiculous, The intention is clear and no thinking person would seriously argue that point. The SH team would laugh."

A very clever non-answer, and it explains absolutely nothing. I'm disappointed. Not to mention, a bit insulted. There are plenty of reasons to examine whether or not these scenes should be taken at face value.

And what amphreded said: just because a scene is shocking doesn't mean it's "low class" or has no point or whatever. It is my understanding that they wanted the game to be shocking.

I don't think it's low-class just because it's shocking, but because there's no reasonable context for what's going on. If it's sexual, there's not really any point to it being sexual except that sex turns up the shock to 11, because, again, it's not a habit Pyramid Head ever expresses after the Apartments, and nobody who considers it sexual can explain why this is the case, or alternatively, why it is important for this to happen in the Apartments and nowhere else.

A similar example is Maria getting extra-slutty with James late in the game, in a manner which is very shocking for many reasons, but it's not cheap because this behavior fits in perfectly with everything we already know about her. She's being shocking and crude, but it's okay because she's also being consistent. This is very much not the case with the idea of the Red Pyramid Rapist.

[nur_ein_tier]

I don't think the scene needs to have more context than it has. The symbolism in the game doesn't have to be literal or a definite 1 to 1 thing.

Regardless of what else JB said, I think an important point is "SH2 is all about the monstrous sides of people." Taking that POV, the intent behind ANY of the disturbing scenes in SH2 may not even relate in a literal way to James, but rather, it shows darker aspects of human nature. Cruelty, violence, abuse, and so on. I think the sexual interpretation of the RPT kitchen scene shows that James has a darker side, that's all. I don't think it necessarily means James is into raping stuff, just that PH represents a darker aspect to James. And PH is portrayed as cruel, violent, and shocking.

[AuraTwilight]

....Which still doesn't justify, explain, or give context to PH sexually abusing a monster one or twice and then never again. Especially since sex had no relevance to James killing Mary.

Also, JB, that was a fucking douche response. Fuck you.

[nur_ein_tier]

Yes, I thought it did, actually. (He is a fellow of strong opinions, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that he's still one of the best sources we have on the original intentions of the team, short of learning Japanese and hunting down the Japanese team ourselves.) Because the scene is a movie reference. I don't see how it has to directly relate to James. I think it was a scene that was supposed to be disturbing. I don't think every single aspect of every single thing in the game necessarily relates directly to James killing Mary. “SH2 is all about the monstrous sides of people.”-JB
I also like what he says about SH3, which I think also relates to SH2:
"[sh2 was] far too literal and tried too hard to explain things that were never meant to have such an internal logic because they were not all thought out that far.”
( http://alchemillahospital.net/jeremy-bl ... nt-hill-2/ )
Point being, not every detail of SH2 or any of them was necessarily thought out in as much detail by the team as it is by the fans on forums. Sometimes there might not be a real answer. The story of SH2 was great, but that doesn't mean every detail must be picked apart to death, or that it'll all make sense if you pick it all apart..

and as i posted elsewhere and can't be arsed to rephrase:

What he said was that, at first, they wanted even MORE sexual stuff in there to disturb the player, and he said that too much incest and sexual abuse might not be a good idea for western audiences. So they used symbolism, implied sexual violence, etc. to express the same themes. The point to having rape here is to disturb the player. Imagery of violence, sexual violence, abuse, etc is all disturbing and is there to be disturbing, and that's it.

As for ceasing after an hour, well, James wasn't into incest and killing dogs, and yet those themes are still there. They are there to provide a disturbing atmosphere for the player.

And as everyone knows, the games quotes heavily from films. If you go to the scene in Blue Velvet where Kyle Mclachlan's character is in the closet, we see the parellels with the James/closet scene. KM's character is witnessing a disturbing sexual scene between isabella rossellini and dennis hopper. and this is another reason i think ph/mannequin scene is sexual. there are a lot of very direct quotes from films. (also, I don't think david lynch is "low class" for using sexual themes)

[AuraTwilight]

So it's basically complete shock value with no relevance to anything because they wanted to reference a movie that had nothing to do with jack shit. And this is supposed to be a good thing worthy of insulting the fanbase's intelligence for not accepting and/or questioning/inquiring about?

Yea, fuck him.

[alone in the town]

Regarding the reference to the movie: I don't accept that, either. It's too striking to refer exclusively to an outside source most people won't even know about. I don't watch many movies, and I never knew this reference until told of it. The series is usually very subtle with such references. This is not anything like subtle. Also, such references are usually not important to what's going on.

Besides, there are two sexor scenes, not just the one. The first one can be called a reference to Blue Velvet given the setting. Does the same apply to the second one?

[nur_ein_tier]

I thought lots of people had seen Blue Velvet. In any case, he also talks about how heavy-handed the references are in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1fFYj4JLek&NR=1 even going so far as to say they just stole visuals without even changing stuff or making it their own to a very great extent, though I don't remember his exact words.

The second one? I think that's what he means about overanalyzing. Why do you think it has to have meaning, rather than instilling a sense of fear or dread in the player? I still think the "SH2 is about the monstrous sides of people" applies. The story is about James and Mary, mostly, but the visual stuff is there to unnerve the player. I don't consider it pure "shock value," no. I think it's there for the atmosphere of the game. Consider Alchemilla Hospital and Brookhaven and the references to Jacob's Ladder. Some of the monsters in SH2 were basically pulled directly from that movie. Does that invalidate them as part of Silent Hill? That they are recycled movie references? The insane cancer from SH3 was taken from Bosch, so it's a direct reference, too. There is a lot of quoting going on, and I think the quoting enriches the games by borrowing the visuals and atmosphere from movies and art sources.

[AuraTwilight]

I thought lots of people had seen Blue Velvet. In any case, he also talks about how heavy-handed the references are in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1fFYj4JLek&NR=1 even going so far as to say they just stole visuals without even changing stuff or making it their own to a very great extent, though I don't remember his exact words.

You think this would've been brought up in the Lost Memories page about motifs and references.

The second one? I think that's what he means about overanalyzing. Why do you think it has to have meaning, rather than instilling a sense of fear or dread in the player?

Because the Otherworld is a plane of existence governed by thought, memory, or emotion. Things there don't happen there "just because", they happen because someone's mind is making it happen. It's one thing to say that the meta-purpose of the event is to screw with the players, but this does nothing to explain why James Sunderland, in universe, is seeing such an event which is technically his creation. If it has no relevance, it shouldn't exist.

I don't consider it pure "shock value," no. I think it's there for the atmosphere of the game.

You're committing cognitive dissonance here. If it's just there to unnerve the player and contributes nothing to the storyline or symbolism of events, then it is quite literally pure shock value; especially since it never happens again after the two initial events.

Consider Alchemilla Hospital and Brookhaven and the references to Jacob's Ladder. Some of the monsters in SH2 were basically pulled directly from that movie. Does that invalidate them as part of Silent Hill? That they are recycled movie references? The insane cancer from SH3 was taken from Bosch, so it's a direct reference, too.

Except all those things had in-universe symbolic references. They were more than just references to movies, they were retooled to have RELEVANCE.

[nur_ein_tier]

You think this would've been brought up in the Lost Memories page about motifs and references.

well, it's extremely obvious to anyone who's seen it, and I believe David Lynch was brought up as an influence in BoLM.

Wait, here is the part :

Blue Velvet

A suspense film in which an ordinary young man becomes involved in affairs as
a result of finding a human ear by chance. The scene in which the protagonist
hides in a closet is suggestive of Silent Hill 2.

If it's just there to unnerve the player and contributes nothing to the storyline or symbolism of events, then it is quite literally pure shock value; especially since it never happens again after the two initial events.

It also serves as a movie quotation, like so many other things. Like the subway in SH3. It provides atmosphere, I think that's worth something.

Except all those things had in-universe symbolic references. They were more than just references to movies, they were retooled to have RELEVANCE.

They were retooled to explain away everything, which JB also said Owaku et al. did not want; they wanted to leave these interpretations "in the shadows" rather than explaining away all details.

Again, I don't give a damn what any individual believes and I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their beleifs, I have my own beliefs on the matter, and I just think that sometimes, it is okay to take things at face value and not have to overanalyze every movement PH makes or what "significance" everything has. I especially feel this way after JB has stated that, in many cases, the Japanese team did want to explain things and hadn't even thought it through that far, themselves. I guess it comes down to the "death of the author" and all that.

again, I don't get involved in "theory" discussions so I'm not reading this topic anymore, probably. I think multiple interpretations are valid, and I don't like the way people get upset about these sorts of things. Peace out, y'all.

[MartinStatic]

I still vote sexual, purely because I'm thinking

"What if it was sexual abuse but that topic was taboo?
How would they express it in a way that they could deny if they came under fire?
How would they make it simply implied?"

And the answer is just exactly what I see in the game.
Of course, in effect (in terms of an argument) that means absolutely nothing and holds no ground as it's purely how I interpret the game, but that's how I take it nonetheless.

[flipain]

Regarding to Angela is obvius that was sexual abuse. (It even says so in the article that have been linked in the first page).

Regarding to PH, it seem to be sexual as well, although I don't see any reason about why is he doing that, since James isn't a rapist, in any case, as much as I hate him.

Sex, or not having sex more accurately is one of the reasons because James killed Mary, but it still not explain why the dark version of James, PH, is raping monsters, if any he should be practicing sex with them, as James would like to do with Mary, but normal sex, not rape them, because I don't think James was thinking of raping anyone, nor in his deepest unconscious mind, at least, I hope so.

[SHF]

Regarding to Angela is obvius that was sexual abuse. (It even says so in the article that have been linked in the first page).

Regarding to PH, it seem to be sexual as well, although I don't see any reason about why is he doing that, since James isn't a rapist, in any case, as much as I hate him.

Sex, or not having sex more accurately is one of the reasons because James killed Mary, but it still not explain why the dark version of James, PH, is raping monsters, if any he should be practicing sex with them, as James would like to do with Mary, but normal sex, not rape them, because I don't think James was thinking of raping anyone, nor in his deepest unconscious mind, at least, I hope so.

Watch PH carefully. He's not raping anything. He is simulating James sexual frustration.

[flipain]

I think you are right, PH simulate sexual frustration with all the mannequins and laying figures he come across, but he isn't actually raping them per se, and when she felts better, he kills them, like James did to the poor Mary.

[sorata]

when she felts better, he kills them, like James did to the poor Mary.

What do you mean by "when she feels better" for the mannequins?

[SHF]

When Maria feels better, Pyramid Head kills her. I guess thats what he/she meant.
Maybe referring to how Pyramid Head stalks Maria constantly.

[flipain]

No, I was meaning that when PH thinks he have had enough "sex" and is less frustrated, then he kills his "sexual partner". It is a representation of what James did, when he had sex with Mary, all was ok, but when she fell sick, and he couldn't had sex with her, he eventually kills her. I know there are more things at play when James killed Mary, but these are some of them, the sexual frustration and the way PH acts have to do with it.

[The Adversary]

No it doesn't.

Apparently on this forum, everyone's first reaction if they're not getting laid regularly is to murder someone.

[AuraTwilight]

Pretty much. It reminds me of love-shy.com.

[flipain]

It is what I have been reading many times about James's sexual frustration, and murder of Mary, and Pyramid Head acts, not what I would do, I assure you.
Are you telling me Pyramid Head doing whatever he does with the mannequins, etc has no relation with James's sexual frustration?
If it is so, why PH does that things in your opinion?