In Defense of the Maria Ending

[alone in the town]

Are you talking about the Silent Hill movie? I didn't care for that movie, but I don't think we can compare with what happened in a movie to the outcome of SH 2 since the game was made way before it, and since SH 2 is sort of a stand-alone game that seperates itself from the others.

Plus I don't think the otherworld stretches that far out. When you start in SH 2, its possible that you are in the normal world or the fringes of the fog world since you are on an outskirt area -- there was hardly any fog and no monsters. Certainly James didn't see any monsters or unrelenting fog on his trip to Silent Hill, so I feel that Silent Hill's power is fairly restricted to Silent Hill itself.

I think we can compare because neither of those things disqualifies this from being a valid viewpoint. The third game showed that the Otherworld is certainly not restricted to the town of Silent Hill and the fourth game showed that one person's Otherworld can span a great distance (as the Forest and Water Prison worlds are on the outskirts of Silent Hill while the other worlds are in Ashfield). The Doctor's Note memo in the second game also indicates that the Otherworld can manifest anywhere and to anyone, so the idea existed already.

[Glenn]

I think we can compare because neither of those things disqualifies this from being a valid viewpoint. The third game showed that the Otherworld is certainly not restricted to the town of Silent Hill and the fourth game showed that one person's Otherworld can span a great distance (as the Forest and Water Prison worlds are on the outskirts of Silent Hill while the other worlds are in Ashfield). The Doctor's Note memo in the second game also indicates that the Otherworld can manifest anywhere and to anyone, so the idea existed already.

I don't think we can compare because the otherworlds are manifested by different people in SH, SH 2, and SH 3.

You can't compare the third game with the second game. The third game used Claudia's power to create the otherworld, so that otherworld could move to other areas, but that is not the case with SH 2. I haven't played SH 4, I intend to do it one of these days, so I can't comment on that.

Silent Hill 2 made a big deal about the town, its isolation, and the spirits/mysteries within. Along my points about James not encountering strange things outside of Silent Hill and that his ghost buddy cannot be seen by anyone else, I feel that James continuing on with Maria outside of Silent Hill is slim.

[WelcomeToNowhere]

^In Silent Hill 3, Claudia didn't so much create the Otherworld, so much as she used her magics to manipulate it. She sort of brought it with her to wherever Heather lived, and brought Heather (and Douglas) into it. Silent Hill 4 didn't use the Otherworld, exactly, but something closer to a pocket dimension that the bad guy could use to contain the spirits of the sacrifices he killed. Homecoming's Otherworld was being manipulated by The Order, to punish the residents of Shepherd's Glen for not making the proper sacrifices; this one's up for debate, though, cause it might also have been Silent Hill itself punishing them.

[alone in the town]

I am not comparing the games so much as I am citing such occurrences in other games. You feel that the Otherworld stops at he edge of town, but we know for a fact that this is not true in some cases and there is no good reason to assume that it is impossible foe some and not for others.

[WelcomeToNowhere]

No, I'm saying that in most, if not all, of the cases of the Otherworld leaving the bounds of Silent Hill, it has been under duress of someone with magic at their disposal and a grudge. The Otherworld in its natural state seems to be located around the town itself, unless specifically directed at someone.

[Glenn]

I am not comparing the games so much as I am citing such occurrences in other games. You feel that the Otherworld stops at he edge of town, but we know for a fact that this is not true in some cases and there is no good reason to assume that it is impossible foe some and not for others.

If you are going to back something up with something that happened or think will happen with the ending of Silent Hill 2 than you need to cite examples within Silent Hill 2 itself. Citing other games even if they are Silent Hill games will make your case weaker, as it is does not directly deal with Silent Hill 2. If we are talking about Silent Hill 1, then yes you could use some examples from Silent Hill 3 and Origins (although stronger points would be made by using the actual game itself) as those games are directly related, but Silent Hill 2 as I have said is completely separate and sealed from those other games.

As WelcomeToNowhere and I have stated the otherworld is a "thing" residing in and/or around Silent Hill. In SH 3 Claudia used her psychic energy to bring it to other places, but the root of it remained in Silent Hill. Silent Hill 2 does not have a character that can bring the otherworld elsewhere.

[alone in the town]

I did cite an example from the second game: the Doctor's Note moment found in Brookhaven, which strongly implies that the Otherworld is not tied specifically to the town.

We cannot assume arbitrary limitations to the Otherworld. As far as we are ever shown, or told, it really has no limits at all. In addition, while there is evidence that the Otherworld is not limited to the town itself, there is no evidence to the contrary.

Finally, I am not making a case. You can believe or disbelieve as you want. I only offer a possible result, which contradicts no established truth.

[Glenn]

I did cite an example from the second game: the Doctor's Note moment found in Brookhaven, which strongly implies that the Otherworld is not tied specifically to the town.

We cannot assume arbitrary limitations to the Otherworld. As far as we are ever shown, or told, it really has no limits at all. In addition, while there is evidence that the Otherworld is not limited to the town itself, there is no evidence to the contrary.

Finally, I am not making a case. You can believe or disbelieve as you want. I only offer a possible result, which contradicts no established truth.

My mistake about the doctor's note. Was that the note explaining something about how the potential for illness exists in all of us?

That doesn't explain how the otherworld may also occur outside of Silent Hill (without someone like Claudia and again that's SH 3) since the patients of Brookhaven are in Silent Hill.

[alone in the town]

The potential for this illness
exists in all people and, under
the right circumstances, any
man or woman would be driven,
like him, to "the other side."

It says nothing at all about it being a local phenomenon, in fact implying precisely the opposite. It is clear in stating that it can happen to anybody if the circumstances are right, and it only makes sense to assume that, if it was a strictly local thing, such sweeping language would not be used.

[AuraTwilight]

I just want to point out that technically it wasn't Claudia that triggered the Otherworld. Claudia's presence prompted Heather's past self memories to awaken, which caused the God to quicken, which then seemed to be responsible for the Otherworld shift..

Besides, this is a stupid argument. The Otherworld can create areas which have no basis in reality whatsoever, and it can create places based on people's memories down to the finest of details. The space within the Otherworld is infinite, and only uses Silent Hill as a backdrop and a portal.

Remember the endings of the game where James talks to Mary?

Yea, the room they're in? That's their house.

[Glenn]

The potential for this illness
exists in all people and, under
the right circumstances, any
man or woman would be driven,
like him, to "the other side."

It says nothing at all about it being a local phenomenon, in fact implying precisely the opposite. It is clear in stating that it can happen to anybody if the circumstances are right, and it only makes sense to assume that, if it was a strictly local thing, such sweeping language would not be used.

So you don't think the otherworld is exclusive to Silent Hill? You think that due to the story involving James and Mary having fond memories of that place, coupled with James' extreme range of emotions and rather unstable psyche that Silent Hill was the place where the otherworld would occur for him?

I'm not really sure if I like that concept. I feel like the town is far less important if this phenomenon can happen elsewhere.

[Soulless-Shadow]

^Personally I think Silent Hill is more like a gateway to the otherworld for people who can't normally access it themselves (ie; normal people, like James, Anglea, and Eddie. Alessa and Walter could probably manifest it anywhere because of their powers).
Once there in the otherworld, people can probably go anywhere they have previously visited, places of importance, or perhaps even places they've only imagined/dreamed. I don't think it's bound by the contours of the land or whatnot, so real world landmarks, towns, roads, and distances probably wouldn't have much of an impact on the otherworld unless it's a part of the current visitor's thoughts, etc. It's like a blank slate which changes for each person. But then again, I also think that it can retain things and places from previous visitors and reuses them sometimes. Kinda like how a used sponge retains the odors of previously cleaned up spills.
But what do I know? I just came in on the arse-end of this discussion and thought it was interesting enough to derail with my own thoughts. ^_^

[WelcomeToNowhere]

Remember the endings of the game where James talks to Mary?

Yea, the room they're in? That's their house.

If I recall, there is a very in-depth argument over whether or not that is true. There is evidence both for and against the idea that they're at their house, or perhaps at a hotel or private care facility in the town itself. No definite argument exists that says where they were at the end.

@Ryantology: Couldn't that note also be interpreted to mean garden-variety psychosis? I mean, he is a doctor at an insane asylum, so there's a chance he's making a generalized statement related to a mental state as opposed to a pseudo-spiritual one.

[Glenn]

^Personally I think Silent Hill is more like a gateway to the otherworld for people who can't normally access it themselves (ie; normal people, like James, Anglea, and Eddie. Alessa and Walter could probably manifest it anywhere because of their powers).
Once there in the otherworld, people can probably go anywhere they have previously visited, places of importance, or perhaps even places they've only imagined/dreamed. I don't think it's bound by the contours of the land or whatnot, so real world landmarks, towns, roads, and distances probably wouldn't have much of an impact on the otherworld unless it's a part of the current visitor's thoughts, etc. It's like a blank slate which changes for each person. But then again, I also think that it can retain things and places from previous visitors and reuses them sometimes. Kinda like how a used sponge retains the odors of previously cleaned up spills.
But what do I know? I just came in on the arse-end of this discussion and thought it was interesting enough to derail with my own thoughts. ^_^

Nah your opinion is appreciated. I think you have some good ideas and it supports what I think in how most people (other than those with certain psychic abilities) need to physically be in Silent Hill for the otherworld to occur. And of course, since the otherworld is basically a nightmare world where physics, geometry, geology etc. go out the window, you can virtually (and virtually is the key, it is the mind) go anywhere with your thoughts and emotions.

And WelcomeToNowhere I believe that can be interpreted in such a way as well. After all that hospital had plenty of crazies.

[alone in the town]

If I recall, there is a very in-depth argument over whether or not that is true. There is evidence both for and against the idea that they're at their house, or perhaps at a hotel or private care facility in the town itself. No definite argument exists that says where they were at the end.

That really wasn't much of an argument about where, because it devolved into arguing unrelated things. JuriDawn pointed out that, wherever they are, it's a place where they have a honeymoon photo. Also, it's somewhat difficult to kill a person and remove the body from a public place without it being easily detected. I'm 99% certain this depicts their house.

@Ryantology: Couldn't that note also be interpreted to mean garden-variety psychosis? I mean, he is a doctor at an insane asylum, so there's a chance he's making a generalized statement related to a mental state as opposed to a pseudo-spiritual one.

I guess you could interpret it that way, but it means that the letter is pretty irrelevant, because James is certainly not suffering from garden-variety psychosis.

The important point of this debate is that there is no basis to suspect that the Otherworld's boundaries are the edge of town, because the only evidence we can find on the matter shows that it isn't true, and there's no reason to suspect that it's any different for James because neither this game, nor any other, ever state that the Otherworld has a physical boundary.

It could very well be that going to the town of Silent Hill makes getting into the Otherworld much more likely, but that doesn't mean getting out works in the same way.

[Soulless-Shadow]

Nah your opinion is appreciated.

Thanks. ^_^

I think you have some good ideas and it supports what I think in how most people (other than those with certain psychic abilities) need to physically be in Silent Hill for the otherworld to occur.

While I do think that for the most part normal people need to be in or around the town to get to the otherworld, I wouldn't be surprised if there were other ways. If there were something else out there that could act as a gateway to the otherworld, then I think the otherworld could exist anywhere as well. It would be interesting if a developer could elaborate on something like that in a future game.

And of course, since the otherworld is basically a nightmare world where physics, geometry, geology etc. go out the window, you can virtually (and virtually is the key, it is the mind) go anywhere with your thoughts and emotions.

I think "dream" would be more accurate. Laura didn't see anything nightmarish about the otherworld, and while it apparently calls out to people "with darkness in their hearts", I like to think that even someone without major problems could find their way there to a reasonably pleasant (or just boring) otherworld.
Anyway, we have already seen unnatural changes in the environment (the abyss, Hell Descent, etc) and even places that no longer exist (the prison in SH2 as well as the hotel) so the other side of the otherworld does seem to be quite malleable and ever changing. I think it's entirely possible for anything beyond the town to exist in the otherworld, so I think it could be possible for James to leave the town itself in the Maria ending. Whether or not he could find his way back to the real world (with or without Maria) or simply stay in the otherworld though...I wouldn't have a clue.

[mikefile]

As much as it regards the Otherworld mechanics, I think it is fair to conclude (embracing all known facts) that for a person to enter it is necessary to pass near Silent, possess a relevant past in regards with the town or have a spiritual connection with it, or even be simply driven in it by another character.

However, the exit, is a completely different aspect. I believe that it is possible not ever to exit, wherever you go. That is, once you enter the Otherworld (the way I previously stated) you can go anywhere, to the North pole if you want, and still be kept in it, as to a character the Otherworld may become the real world (by refusing objectivity).

Why? Because It is a place both close and distant.

James enjoys his reality with Maria, and he can go wherever he wants if his mind permits him. It's all up to him, to his conscious and subconscious part. Maria's coughing is all him. It's not like the town is establishing his will by trying to destroy his peace.

Again, as the doctor's journal states:
It's true that to us his imaginings are nothing but the inventions of a busy mind. But to him, there simply is no other reality. Furthermore he is happy there.

[Oddish]

Interesting digression... It would appear that what is being disputed is:

1. The Otherworld is a realm within Silent Hill and the surrounding area. If James and Maria leave Silent Hill, Maria will vanish.
2. The Otherworld is a complete alternate dimension, but can only be accessed within Silent Hill. If Reality, Misty World, and Nightmare/Otherworld are three seperate floors, then the town is the elevator shaft.
3. The Otherworld is a complete alternate dimension, and it can be accessed from anywhere.

The evidence from just SH2 is inconclusive; any of the three could be true, though 3 would be unlikely (why would Angela and Eddie have been "called" if they could drop into the Otherworld anywhere?). However, otherr games (SH3 and SHH) feature Otherworld action far from Silent Hill, which makes #1 less likely. Therefore, #2 seems most logical. Ergo, James and Maria could likely leave the town together. However, a large and sprawling nightmare is still a nightmare: Maria's coughing suggests that James has not stopped punishing himself, he's just found a new way to go about it.

[AuraTwilight]

The evidence from just SH2 is inconclusive; any of the three could be true, though 3 would be unlikely (why would Angela and Eddie have been "called" if they could drop into the Otherworld anywhere?).

Well, canonically the town's 'calling people' is a result of Alessa's twisting the power of the town, so that can literally mean anything from "Silent Hill is the portal to the Otherworld" or even just "The town calls to people purely as a result of psychic resonance; it's not strictly necessary."

I agree that 2 is probably most likely...at the time of SH2, atleast.

[mikefile]

[...] or even just "The town calls to people purely as a result of psychic resonance; it's not strictly necessary."

That's possible, too. However, in practice, that really didn't happen a lot. Harry found Cheryl (the other half of Alessa), James visited Silent Hill with Mary before, Angela's mother was from SH, Laura heard about Silent Hill from Mary, Heather was Alessa's reincarnation, Douglas got dragged in by Claudia, all SH4 victims got dragged in by Walter, Travis passed near Silent Hill and got "called" by Alessa and the area of SG is all spiritually connected to Silent Hill.

I think that maybe, the only possible subject who could fit in this theory, is Eddie, who claims not even being from Silent Hill.