Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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five5sixers
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by five5sixers »

I realize this is a little off topic but this has been something I was curious about in regards to Xuchilpaba, Xuchilbara and Lobsel Vith.

Is Xuchilpaba God
Xuchilbara Valtiel
And Lobsel Vith Incubus?

I mean this a little metaphorically, especially with Lobsel Vith. I remember reading somewhere that it was believed Lobsel Vith resembled the Incubus boss, and I do not mean to say that Lobsel Vith is the Incubus. Also, if the original names are as such (which reminds me of Mayan/Aztec names, definitely not romanized like Valtiel) would that mean that Xuchilbara could have been or is Valtiel but is now commonly referred to by the latter name because of romanization on the Order's part through the years?

I swear I remember reading this in a thread here, or something similar, and I'm pretty sure it was written by The Adversary but I cannot put my finger on where it would be and Search is failing me.
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by AuraTwilight »

The Incubus is God, but it looks like Lobsel Vith because of Dahlia's mental image.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by five5sixers »

That's what I thought, thanks Aura~
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KingCrimson
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by KingCrimson »

The Adversary wrote:>What is your evidence for this claim?<
Besides the fact the two names are spelled and pronounced differently? Well, the big reason, for me, is the Japanese script for Silent Hill 2 only refers to a singular 'god'; not 'gods,' as in the English translation. At the time of Silent Hill 2, also, there was only the god—no yellow god, no red god, just the god. So, in context, only the god, Xuchilpaba, existed. It wasn't until Silent Hill 3 that the Order actually became polytheistic, and Xuchilbara and Lobsel Vith were created.
Interesting thought. There is more than one reference to the plural 'gods' in Silent Hill 2, both in the main story and the extra scenario, so I would have to look at specific cases. Even granting the translation error hypothesis, the absence of 'gods' in the Japanese script does not negate the possibility of gods, especially in the specific instances where the topic is brought up in the game's dialogue. Also, gods and angels frequently have varying names, especially when the religious heirarchy is divided into sects who worship different beings. Metatron is also called Mattatron, and Dahlia pronounces it "Metratron" in the first game.

The meaning of Xuchilbara and Xuchilpaba is hard to pin down exactly, but others have said the original Aztec translates to "flower spear" or "flower servant" respectively. Since Valtiel is both a servant to god and the inspiration behind the spear-weilding executioners' garments, it's possible both versions refer to the same being, much as "holy spirit" and "holy ghost" are (albeit closer) variants of the same title.
Note. Of course the Order was always polytheistic, but it wasn't demonstrated as such until the third game when the developers decided to make it polytheistic. Therefore we can look at the scripts microcosmically to understand the intent of the writers and even what the actual beliefs are, such as this.
This makes no sense to me. The Silent Hill canon should be taken as a whole. When new bits of history are revealed in later installations of the series, they are meant to apply retroactively, even if that's not the chronology in which they were authored.

Let me put it this way. In Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back, the decision to make Vader the father of Luke was not based on a plot that had already been written beforehand. It was created for that film. Are you saying that he wasn't Luke's father in Star Wars: A New Hope?
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by KingCrimson »

Either way, Pyramid Head is none of the gods that we know of.
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by five5sixers »

I'm pretty sure The Adversary meant that we could look at the games separately, as well as together, to further dissect and examine the plot, symbolism and related developments, not that because each game is different they do not connect in any way because that makes absolutely no sense. He says "Of course the Order was always polytheistic" he means that in a literal sense, not sarcastic, but it was likely at the time of SH2 this was not the case because it hadn't been thought of yet and, because of that separation, it might be easier to pin down precise details of what the God/Gods are supposed to be.
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by The Adversary »

Thank you. That's exactly what I meant.
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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by KingCrimson »

Fair enough, although I still can't wrap my head around
He says "Of course the Order was always polytheistic" he means that in a literal sense, not sarcastic, but it was likely at the time of SH2 this was not the case because it hadn't been thought of yet
If we all agree the Order is a polytheistic cult and always has been, it's unequivocally the case that the Order was polytheistic in SH2 in the series' timeline. Of course in real life, the game creators may not have established it one way or another, but that's moot because they have since elaborated on things left deliberately vague. I would still like to know what James says in the Japanese version during the Rebirth ending, and what Ernest says to Maria.
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by King Crimson »

KingCrimson wrote:Fair enough, although I still can't wrap my head around
He says "Of course the Order was always polytheistic" he means that in a literal sense, not sarcastic, but it was likely at the time of SH2 this was not the case because it hadn't been thought of yet
If we all agree the Order is a polytheistic cult and always has been, it's unequivocally the case that the Order was polytheistic in SH2 in the series' timeline. Of course in real life, the game creators may not have established it one way or another, but that's moot because they have since elaborated on things left deliberately vague. I would still like to know what James says in the Japanese version during the Rebirth ending, and what Ernest says to Maria.
I think some things were left vague purposely so they could elabortate on the ideas later. Not to say they didnt know exactly what they were going to do for SH4 when they put the walter sullivan articles in SH2. Im sure they had a general idea. I imagine they knew what they were going to for SH3 while they were making SH2 to a certain extent.

Oh and cool name King Crimson :P Way to steal my name :lol:
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by KingCrimson »

King Crimson wrote:
KingCrimson wrote:Fair enough, although I still can't wrap my head around
He says "Of course the Order was always polytheistic" he means that in a literal sense, not sarcastic, but it was likely at the time of SH2 this was not the case because it hadn't been thought of yet
If we all agree the Order is a polytheistic cult and always has been, it's unequivocally the case that the Order was polytheistic in SH2 in the series' timeline. Of course in real life, the game creators may not have established it one way or another, but that's moot because they have since elaborated on things left deliberately vague. I would still like to know what James says in the Japanese version during the Rebirth ending, and what Ernest says to Maria.
I think some things were left vague purposely so they could elabortate on the ideas later. Not to say they didnt know exactly what they were going to do for SH4 when they put the walter sullivan articles in SH2. Im sure they had a general idea. I imagine they knew what they were going to for SH3 while they were making SH2 to a certain extent.

Oh and cool name King Crimson :P Way to steal my name :lol:
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! lol

Actually, you might have "stolen" my name from the UK Silent Hill forums, where I had it originally ("King Crimson" with the space in between)! Of course, we both stole it from the band. And the band based it off some Beelzebub myth or something.

Another, less parsimonious explanation popped into my head re: 2 x PH... maybe there were two all along, just never in the same place until the end. Maybe there were more than 2, maybe the town generates manifestations at whim and the situation never called for 2 before James makes his way through the flooded hotel.

But since I started this thread, I read somebody else's hypothesis that they represent Mary and Maria, which is supported by the eggs they give James after committing suicide.
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by Uyrikeustek »

Aerith Gainsborough wrote:Pyramid Head already existed. It isn't like James created him from a figment of his imagination. Pyramid Head is often associated as being the Red God, or Xuchilbara. If Pyramid Head is indeed Xuchilbara, then he would already exist, and not be 'created' by James' imagination.
Actually, Pyramid Head is NOT the Red God. He is a part of James' subconscious and therefore CANNOT exist without James. His purpose is to remind James of his crimes. It is the fact that James is in Silent Hill that this creature was manifested having the appearance of the prison executioners. The spiritual power of Silent Hill is what helped to make PH real. If James wasn't in Silent Hill, there wouldn't be a PH. Also, if James doesn't exist, then there would be no PH. If there was no spiritual power in Silent Hill, PH couldn't exist either. Neither could Maria. These two need James, but also need the Spiritual Power to exist. Both the power and James need to be present for PH to exist.
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Re: Simple explanation for final PH encounter (spoilers)

Post by AuraTwilight »

She's talking about how the concept of PYramid Head existed previously by James. He took the physical form that inspired him from a painting.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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