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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: James and Mary in another point of view
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Nov 2011
Notes left: 142
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Yeah, it's been over 10 years since the game's release and I still see people who just can't even accept thinking that james might not have killed mary because he loved her. He could aswell just have killled her in an angry attack.

Maybe James never really loved Mary as much as she loved him. They were just in a relationship where Mary loved james and James liked Mary more because of her looks than anything, and also because she actually liked him a lot, and then sudenly, *BOOM*, comes the disease that will kill marry. After that, James would simply not be able to break up with Mary, she was his wife, and he promised her that he would not leave her on disease. So he has to see Mary dying and have his sex life destroyed, because he would not be able to cheat on her, she was dying, for god's sake!

I mean, my first impression after playing the game was that james killed mary to help her and stop her pain. But after some more playtroughs I also realised that this could have happened: James, when looking to mary in her death bed, not able to have sex, just had an urge to have sex with her (rape her), and that's the reason pyramid head is seen raping the manequins. Back to the hospital, james, one day, angry with Mary because she was wining all the time and also because she wasn't willing to have sex, killed her.

The mannequin is the ideal woman for James. It's always willing to have sex and cannot talk (yes, this sounds a little bit sexist) and annoy James in the way Mary did when she was sick. It's what James thought of mary before she had her disease. I could not find a similar trend in here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2313 so I don't think there was another post talking about this. I don't think there's anything else I can use to go further with this theory, but it's interesting to think about it.

_________________
Have you seen a little girl? Short, black hair. Seven years old...


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1627
Major unremarked spoilers for SH2, obviously.

CandyLander wrote:
Yeah, it's been over 10 years since the game's release and I still see people who just can't even accept thinking that james might not have killed mary because he loved her. He could aswell just have killled her in an angry attack.

Or James is a complex character who didn't have any one reason for doing what he did? Hell, he probably didn't even think and acted purely on impulse. Everything said after the fact could just be him (and us) trying to rationalize a spur of the moment action that was the result of goodness knows how much stress, pain, and suffering.

CandyLander wrote:
Maybe James never really loved Mary as much as she loved him. They were just in a relationship where Mary loved james and James liked Mary more because of her looks than anything, and also because she actually liked him a lot, and then sudenly, *BOOM*, comes the disease that will kill marry.

If James didn't love Mary, then why did he marry her? Was she filthy rich? :? Simply "liking" someone isn't reason enough to marry them.
As for James caring more about Mary's looks, I don't see it. If he cared mostly about that, and less about her as a person, then why did he go through all that? Yes, one has to find their partner attractive in order to have a happy and healthy sex life, which helps in the every day life, but that's not the be all and end all of a real relationship. And yes, Maria was a more sexualized version of Mary, but James didn't exactly jump at the chance for a little action with her, even though she was coming on to him.

CandyLander wrote:
After that, James would simply not be able to break up with Mary, she was his wife, and he promised her that he would not leave her on disease. So he has to see Mary dying and have his sex life destroyed, because he would not be able to cheat on her, she was dying, for god's sake!

Or maybe he didn't leave or cheat because he loved her? Wedding vows don't carry the same weight these days, but generally when one actually loves their spouse they're less likely to abandon them or cheat on them when they're suffering from a terminal disease.

CandyLander wrote:
I mean, my first impression after playing the game was that james killed mary to help her and stop her pain. But after some more playtroughs I also realised that this could have happened: James, when looking to mary in her death bed, not able to have sex, just had an urge to have sex with her (rape her), and that's the reason pyramid head is seen raping the manequins. Back to the hospital, james, one day, angry with Mary because she was wining all the time and also because she wasn't willing to have sex, killed her.

1. As I mentioned earlier, James is a complex character, so his motives for doing what he did wouldn't be as simple as "this" or "that". I personally think it was a whole bunch of things that came to head in that one moment when he acted on impulse.
2. Rape is usually about power, not sex.
3. PH isn't actually raping the mannequins. Yes, there are sexual undertones in his interactions with them, but that's not the same as rape.
4. Wait, so now James murdered Mary because she had the nerve to whine about the whole "disease" thing?

CandyLander wrote:
The mannequin is the ideal woman for James. It's always willing to have sex and cannot talk (yes, this sounds a little bit sexist) and annoy James in the way Mary did when she was sick. It's what James thought of mary before she had her disease. I could not find a similar trend in here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2313 so I don't think there was another post talking about this.

James' ideal woman would probably be Maria; she's Mary, but sexier and more free with her sexuality. Of course, I also like the theory that Maria is what Mary wanted to be for James.

CandyLander wrote:
I don't think there's anything else I can use to go further with this theory, but it's interesting to think about it.

No offense, but I don't really think it's that interesting simply because it doesn't take into account many other things, such as the complexity of genuine human characters, James and Mary's love for each other, the tragedy of her disease and untimely death, and everything James went through. It's not much different to the same old stuff that has been said many times before, which usually goes along the lines of James being a sex-crazed freak who only thinks with his dick.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11387
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
If James didn't love Mary more than anything in the world, her loss by his own hand wouldn't of utterly destroyed his ability to cope with life, reality, and a future without her.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Dec 2010
Notes left: 451
Not to mention the fact that his inability to cope with his actions forms the basis of his journey into madness in Silent Hill 2.

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Now I Know, The Real Reason Why I Came To This Town....I Wonder....What Was I Afraid Of? Without You..I've Got Nothing...Now, We Can Be Together Again.....Mary.....


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 567
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
CandyLander wrote:
He could aswell just have killled her in an angry attack. [...] So he has to see Mary dying and have his sex life destroyed, because he would not be able to cheat on her, she was dying, for god's sake!

About the lashing out thing, it's not correct to say that James killed Mary purely out of frustration. It's a legitimate fact that the main reason for doing it was to end her suffering. However, the thing is that he might have felt unintentionally some excitement or satisfaction during the act. And that was the thing that created the guilt machine. It's very probable that James does not feel guilt because of killing Mary, but in fact, because of doing it with such ease. James doesn't hate himself for having helped Mary end her suffering, he hates himself for having used the mercy motive as a form of catalyst to unload his stress and frustration accumulated over the years.

Moreover, the sexual frustration is an important element, but not primal. James feels a whole bunch of ambiguous emotions that he automatically represses. From this arises the rape motif in the Otherworld.

The whole LET-ME-BANG-U-OR-DIE argument of yours is much, much more subtle and subconscious, an element combined with a much more confused emotional turmoil.

Furthermore, as much as it regards love, he DID LOVE her. The whole reason why SH2 happens is love. If he didn't love Mary, none of the later events would have occurred. They don't call it the modern Orpheus and Eurydice story for nothing.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Nov 2011
Notes left: 142
AuraTwilight wrote:
If James didn't love Mary more than anything in the world, her loss by his own hand wouldn't of utterly destroyed his ability to cope with life, reality, and a future without her.


It could be just guilt

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Major unremarked spoilers for SH2, obviously.

CandyLander wrote:
Yeah, it's been over 10 years since the game's release and I still see people who just can't even accept thinking that james might not have killed mary because he loved her. He could aswell just have killled her in an angry attack.

Or James is a complex character who didn't have any one reason for doing what he did? Hell, he probably didn't even think and acted purely on impulse. Everything said after the fact could just be him (and us) trying to rationalize a spur of the moment action that was the result of goodness knows how much stress, pain, and suffering.


everything has a reason. even if James killed Mary just on impulse, this impulse was caused by something. and also, there IS a moment when James says to mary "That's why I killed you, I just couldn't handle seeing you suffer...". It's from this quote that I started this, because it kind of seems like James is trying to convince himself that he only killed her for that. Maybe James did kill Mary to stop her suffering, but there was a lot of rage and sexual frustration included

CandyLander wrote:
Maybe James never really loved Mary as much as she loved him. They were just in a relationship where Mary loved james and James liked Mary more because of her looks than anything, and also because she actually liked him a lot, and then sudenly, *BOOM*, comes the disease that will kill marry.
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
If James didn't love Mary, then why did he marry her? Was she filthy rich? :? Simply "liking" someone isn't reason enough to marry them.
As for James caring more about Mary's looks, I don't see it. If he cared mostly about that, and less about her as a person, then why did he go through all that? Yes, one has to find their partner attractive in order to have a happy and healthy sex life, which helps in the every day life, but that's not the be all and end all of a real relationship. And yes, Maria was a more sexualized version of Mary, but James didn't exactly jump at the chance for a little action with her, even though she was coming on to him
.


that's where the theory starts to crash. I also thought about this, and I think that's weird for someone to marry another just because of looks. And that's why I didn't say James didn't love Mary, I just said that James could love Mary more of her looks than anything. About Maria, there IS an ending that's considered bad for most people that's about James leaving the town with Maria, so in some ocasions he could have "jumped at the chance for a little action with her".


CandyLander wrote:
After that, James would simply not be able to break up with Mary, she was his wife, and he promised her that he would not leave her on disease. So he has to see Mary dying and have his sex life destroyed, because he would not be able to cheat on her, she was dying, for god's sake!
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Or maybe he didn't leave or cheat because he loved her? Wedding vows don't carry the same weight these days, but generally when one actually loves their spouse they're less likely to abandon them or cheat on them when they're suffering from a terminal disease.


YES, but maybe the love simply ended! Or why do you think James wouldn't visit Mary in the hospital? He was just tired of her

CandyLander wrote:
I mean, my first impression after playing the game was that james killed mary to help her and stop her pain. But after some more playtroughs I also realised that this could have happened: James, when looking to mary in her death bed, not able to have sex, just had an urge to have sex with her (rape her), and that's the reason pyramid head is seen raping the manequins. Back to the hospital, james, one day, angry with Mary because she was wining all the time and also because she wasn't willing to have sex, killed her.
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
1. As I mentioned earlier, James is a complex character, so his motives for doing what he did wouldn't be as simple as "this" or "that". I personally think it was a whole bunch of things that came to head in that one moment when he acted on impulse.
2. Rape is usually about power, not sex.
3. PH isn't actually raping the mannequins. Yes, there are sexual undertones in his interactions with them, but that's not the same as rape.
4. Wait, so now James murdered Mary because she had the nerve to whine about the whole "disease" thing?


1- And as also said before James didn't kill mary for no reason. There has to be something behind it, and it could be the pain he was feelig because she was suffering and the rage he had towards her together.
2- But in this case it was going to be about sex. James wants to have sex but can't, so he has sex with mary even though she's terminally ill and not willing to do it.
3- Yeah, it's not rape. He's actually just putting them against the wall and doing some sexual movements, but if you look at it the impression you have is that it's rape. It was intended for the player to think PH was raping the manequins, even though he wasn't exactly doing.
4- Nobody can prove it, but maybe he did. There's that pacient monster (the one who throws acid at you, but I can't remember it's name). Anyways, the pacient monster shows how James was disgusted by Mary after she had her disease. James, deep in his mind, maybe started to develop some hate towards Mary. That's what I'm talking about in here .-.

CandyLander wrote:
The mannequin is the ideal woman for James. It's always willing to have sex and cannot talk (yes, this sounds a little bit sexist) and annoy James in the way Mary did when she was sick. It's what James thought of mary before she had her disease. I could not find a similar trend in here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2313 so I don't think there was another post talking about this.
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
James' ideal woman would probably be Maria; she's Mary, but sexier and more free with her sexuality. Of course, I also like the theory that Maria is what Mary wanted to be for James.


I beleive that Maria wasn't just a side of Mary or anything, she just reminded James of Mary. Maria is the fantasy inside James's mind that Mary is still alive. But Maria is not Mary "I'm not your girlfriend...". She started out sexy, got sick and died three times (the three times she died were in order to remind James that Mary was dead. After everything, James can decide to go on and forget Mary or to live with the fantasy that she's still alive (Maria ending).

CandyLander wrote:
I don't think there's anything else I can use to go further with this theory, but it's interesting to think about it.
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
No offense, but I don't really think it's that interesting simply because it doesn't take into account many other things, such as the complexity of genuine human characters, James and Mary's love for each other, the tragedy of her disease and untimely death, and everything James went through. It's not much different to the same old stuff that has been said many times before, which usually goes along the lines of James being a sex-crazed freak who only thinks with his dick.


Saying no offense NEVER makes something less ofensive, but it's not like I'm ofended. There are all these crazy wtf theories out there and this could be one of them. It's nice to think of stuff in a different way, at least to me. I find mostly everything (and with mostly everything I mean stuff related to the game), as long as it makes some sense, interesting. All the stuff that go against my theory are what make it a theory. I'm not saying that everything I said here is true, I'm just pointing out a possibility. If you don't think it's interesting then you probably also don't like most of the other theories (as most of them can also be disproved by arguments).

_________________
Have you seen a little girl? Short, black hair. Seven years old...


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 567
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
CandyLander wrote:
It could be just guilt
It couldn't. Because there wouldn't be any reason to feel any if he didn't love her.The two elements coexist.
CandyLander wrote:
Maybe James did kill Mary to stop her suffering, but there was a lot of rage and sexual frustration included
That would be the correct one, as I just previously stated, but the rest of the JAMES-SEX-MANIAC interpretation is a bit over the top.
CandyLander wrote:
YES, but maybe the love simply ended! Or why do you think James wouldn't visit Mary in the hospital? He was just tired of her
James not visiting Mary does not mean he didn't love her. That's Laura's perspective. And Laura is an 8 year old girl.
CandyLander wrote:
I beleive that Maria wasn't just a side of Mary or anything, she just reminded James of Mary.
It's a fact that Maria contains some of Mary's essence.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1627
CandyLander wrote:
everything has a reason. even if James killed Mary just on impulse, this impulse was caused by something. and also, there IS a moment when James says to mary "That's why I killed you, I just couldn't handle seeing you suffer...". It's from this quote that I started this, because it kind of seems like James is trying to convince himself that he only killed her for that. Maybe James did kill Mary to stop her suffering, but there was a lot of rage and sexual frustration included

I didn't say there was no reason regardless of whether or not murdering Mary was an impulsive act. I said "blah blah blah, spur of the moment action that was the result of goodness knows how much stress, pain, and suffering." There were reasons, but to say he did this for that reason is diminishing the other reasons that also contributed to his actions. Yes, he wanted to end her suffering, and yes he wanted to be free, and yes he was sexually frustrated, etc. No one reason is more important than the others because they all equally contributed.

CandyLander wrote:
that's where the theory starts to crash. I also thought about this, and I think that's weird for someone to marry another just because of looks. And that's why I didn't say James didn't love Mary, I just said that James could love Mary more of her looks than anything. About Maria, there IS an ending that's considered bad for most people that's about James leaving the town with Maria, so in some ocasions he could have "jumped at the chance for a little action with her".

The Maria ending seems less about sex to me, and more about James being unable to come to terms with what he did and being happy living in his delusions.

CandyLander wrote:
YES, but maybe the love simply ended! Or why do you think James wouldn't visit Mary in the hospital? He was just tired of her

Or maybe he didn't visit her because it was too painful to see her like that because he loved her? Well, that and the verbal abuse. Like Mikefile said, the whole "James not visiting because he was tired of her" thing is from Laura. Laura is a child, and children tend to come up with some weird yet simple stuff to help them make sense of the world.

CandyLander wrote:
1- And as also said before James didn't kill mary for no reason. There has to be something behind it, and it could be the pain he was feelig because she was suffering and the rage he had towards her together.
2- But in this case it was going to be about sex. James wants to have sex but can't, so he has sex with mary even though she's terminally ill and not willing to do it.
3- Yeah, it's not rape. He's actually just putting them against the wall and doing some sexual movements, but if you look at it the impression you have is that it's rape. It was intended for the player to think PH was raping the manequins, even though he wasn't exactly doing.
4- Nobody can prove it, but maybe he did. There's that pacient monster (the one who throws acid at you, but I can't remember it's name). Anyways, the pacient monster shows how James was disgusted by Mary after she had her disease. James, deep in his mind, maybe started to develop some hate towards Mary. That's what I'm talking about in here .-.

1. Like I said earlier; "I didn't say there was no reason", blah blah blah. In fact, I said "James is a complex character, so his motives for doing what he did wouldn't be as simple as "this" or "that". I personally think it was a whole bunch of things that came to head in that one moment when he acted on impulse." He had many reasons.
2. And yet, despite having Mary at his mercy, he chose to murder her instead of rape her. That would suggest to me that all his reasons and problems, together, were more important than just having some sex.
3. I'm pretty sure something has been mentioned somewhere that the creators wanted the scene to be disturbing due to the sexual undertones mixed with the violence as opposed to trying to make us think it's rape.
4. I'm not denying that he probably felt some negative emotions towards Mary. It is possible to love and hate someone at the same time. My point was though, that hating her wasn't the only reason for killing her. As I've said many times before in this thread alone, James had many different reasons which contributed to his actions. Again, to say it was just this or just that is diminishing all the other reasons, and makes James a flat, 2-dimensional character when he's supposed to be a real (fictional) person with real problems and emotions.

CandyLander wrote:
Saying no offense NEVER makes something less ofensive, but it's not like I'm ofended.

I wasn't trying to be rude when I said "no offense". I generally say "no offense" when I'm concerned someone might misunderstand my post and think I'm being more aggressive or rude than I intended, and that was what I was worried about with my previous post. It's very easy for people to misunderstand what someone has said online via text and to get offended. I've done it myself many times. But I'll refrain from bothering to saying that to you then. If you get offended from something that wasn't intended to sound aggressive or rude, then that's not my problem any more.

CandyLander wrote:
There are all these crazy wtf theories out there and this could be one of them. It's nice to think of stuff in a different way, at least to me. I find mostly everything (and with mostly everything I mean stuff related to the game), as long as it makes some sense, interesting. All the stuff that go against my theory are what make it a theory. I'm not saying that everything I said here is true, I'm just pointing out a possibility. If you don't think it's interesting then you probably also don't like most of the other theories (as most of them can also be disproved by arguments).

There's nothing wrong with looking at things in a different way. If it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't have been able to appreciate the complexity of SH2 as much as I have. I just think that saying James' only/main motivation for killing Mary was because of sex (or lack thereof) is just an unimaginative cop out and diminishes or dismisses everything else that happened in the game. James, his actions, and his journey isn't all black and white.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view

Missing since: 25 Jul 2012
Notes left: 28
mikefile wrote:
It's a legitimate fact that the main reason for doing it was to end her suffering.


I actually think this is an aspect of James' actions and character that can vary depending on the player. At least, if you accept the dialogue at face value, which I see no reason not to do.

Leave: Here, it's more out of mercy than frustration. James' claim that he did it out of hatred is doubted by the victim herself, as he wouldn't feel so guilty if that were so.

In Water: A mixture of both in equal measure.

Maria: James initially claims Mary's killing was done out of mercy, but in this context it rings hollow, and when accused by Mary of doing it for selfish reasons, James doesn't bother to deny it and implicitly agrees.

Rebirth: Impossible to say.

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
James' ideal woman would probably be Maria; she's Mary, but sexier and more free with her sexuality. Of course, I also like the theory that Maria is what Mary wanted to be for James.


I think it's mostly the reverse, in that Maria is consistently regarded as a distant second to Mary in James' eyes, much to her frustration ("All you care about is that dead wife of yours!"). He's not very receptive to her advances or her promiscuity. In three of the possible endings, she goes all out, taking on Mary's appearance and promising James a future where he can be with her again, but with all the good and none of the bad; no blaming, no negativity, no verbal beatdowns. But as James tells her himself, "You're not Mary."

Even in the Maria ending, James only seems to decide to be with her because she's the only way out; he'd rather have Mary, and his old life, back, but he can't, because Mary's dead, she'll never forgive him, and he isn't particularly sorry for what he's done.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1627
Dr. Robotnik wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
James' ideal woman would probably be Maria; she's Mary, but sexier and more free with her sexuality. Of course, I also like the theory that Maria is what Mary wanted to be for James.


I think it's mostly the reverse, in that Maria is consistently regarded as a distant second to Mary in James' eyes, much to her frustration ("All you care about is that dead wife of yours!"). He's not very receptive to her advances or her promiscuity. In three of the possible endings, she goes all out, taking on Mary's appearance and promising James a future where he can be with her again, but with all the good and none of the bad; no blaming, no negativity, no verbal beatdowns. But as James tells her himself, "You're not Mary."

Even in the Maria ending, James only seems to decide to be with her because she's the only way out; he'd rather have Mary, and his old life, back, but he can't, because Mary's dead, she'll never forgive him, and he isn't particularly sorry for what he's done.

I'm not really sure what any of that has to do with that quote of mine. :? I didn't say anything about James caring more about Maria or her safety more than finding Mary. :? Yeah, I said she's James' "ideal woman", but that just means she's what he wanted Mary to be; sexy, healthy, and promiscuous. The key word here though, is "Mary". Maria might have been an ideal version of her, but she still wasn't Mary.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view

Missing since: 09 Jun 2005
Notes left: 7464
Last seen at: Kentucky
mikefile wrote:
CandyLander wrote:
It could be just guilt
It couldn't. Because there wouldn't be any reason to feel any if he didn't love her.The two elements coexist.


People can murder others and feel some sort of remorse for it without being in love with the victim. Especially if it is an isolated event.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: James and Mary in another point of view
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11387
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Feeling remorse for it is a far cry from being on a suicidal mission to see them again at the cost of your sanity and life. Feeling remorse is leagues different from wanting to end everything and being deterred from suicide only by the fear that you won't meet them in the afterlife.

James loved Mary. If we disregard this basic premise, the story loses all conflict and meaning.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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