Search FAQ

Login | Register


All times are UTC [ DST ]


It is currently 18 Oct 2017




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
Notes left: 494
Quote:
The things she know that James don't can be explained by Laura.

No they can't. Laura doesn't know about the videotape. Maria even makes a point of avoiding Laura. Maria is no more a construct of Laura's than Ernest is a construct of Eddie's.

Quote:
[. . .]must be a very small portion

Well that "small portion" happens to know incredibly intimate details— like James' name w/out him having even told her.

Quote:
since Maria does everything she does in order to help James with what he wants, and not doing what Mary wanted.

Except when she goes out of her way to antagonize and lead him astray— which happens quite frequently. So frequently in fact that one would wonder if that was her main purpose.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 08 Aug 2012
Notes left: 187
Trauma_ wrote:
Quote:
The things she know that James don't can be explained by Laura.

No they can't. Laura doesn't know about the videotape. Maria even makes a point of avoiding Laura. Maria is no more a construct of Laura's than Ernest is a construct of Eddie's.


What about the videotape? Of course Laura doesn't know about the videotape. But James did.

======================
Maria: You forgot that videotape we made. I wonder if it's still there...
James:How do you know about that? Aren't you Maria?
======================

Since Maria is a manifestation from James, she uses his memories too, right?

Quote:
Quote:
[. . .]must be a very small portion

Well that "small portion" happens to know incredibly intimate details— like James' name w/out him having even told her.


Stated above, he doesn't need to do so. She's a product of James' mind, and she knows everything he knows. She's the part of James that wants to be with Mary again, plus the part that just want to shag, plus the memory of the Lady Maria from Heaven's Night, etc, etc...

Quote:
Quote:
since Maria does everything she does in order to help James with what he wants, and not doing what Mary wanted.

Except when she goes out of her way to antagonize and lead him astray— which happens quite frequently. So frequently in fact that one would wonder if that was her main purpose.
[/quote]

I am very familiar with this topic, and I love it. And, in fact it does not contradict me in any way. If anything it corroborates with what I said before: If Maria is influenced by Mary, then why is she doing the opposite of what Mary wanted James to do?
You see, James is a divided individual: In each ending an aspect of his mind is shown, and in each ending he comes to a different resolution. Since all of the main endings are equally valid, it could be said that some part of James wanted to be with Maria, some part of James wanted to kill himself (that's why he's in SIlent Hill, anyway, to take his own life) a another part wanted to forgive himself and live his life.
That said, James wanted Maria to seduce him. After all, he made her, in every detail. No wonder she's supposed to be a stripper from Heaven's Night. If that part of his mind is the one that takes over, the ending will be Maria ending, right? He wanted to be lead astray. He's just like the man form the picture in the tarot cart VI THE LOVERS; Divided between two desires: The right one (Mary) and the easy one (Maria).

So, Maria can't be part Mary. Mary wanted James to move on with his life. She even said it in her letter, and in her manifestation in In Walter ending. Maria wanted James to still live on in his delusion. This is my main point: Mary and Maria are just too different. They aren't related in any way. Maria is the "perfect Mary", and the feeling of wanting to find Mary may have come from Laura as well. Maria seems to really care about Laura, even stating that she might like teddy bears and considering to fetch her one. Laura's desire may have amalgamated with Jame's feeling, creating the Maria creature.

I'd just like to emphasize the comparison between Maria and the Boogeyman from Downpour. Both are the result of multiple feelings from two different people, James and Laura in the former, and Murphy and Anne in the second case.

_________________
"Good people should love their enemies" - Seu Madruga


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
Notes left: 494
James only remembers the video tape after being reminded of it.
-"You were always so forgetful"

Quote:
That said, James wanted Maria to seduce him.

Yes, and this is why he acts completely apprehensive to her advances throughout the game. You're assertion is flawed.

Quote:
[. . .]That said, James wanted Maria to seduce him. After all, he made her, in every detail. No wonder she's supposed to be a stripper from Heaven's Night.

Wrong again. You're assuming that James had some behemoth case of blue balls.

Quote:
He wanted to be lead astray.

He wanted to kill himself, and then to find his wife the instant he stepped into town. He also clearly gets impatient when Maria starts dicking him around during the prison cell scene- not entirely indicative of someone who 'wants to be lead astray'. In fact, I'd say it's nearly antonymous.

Quote:
So, Maria can't be part Mary.

The fact that she knows of things that not even James knows/remembers proves your assertion incorrect.

Quote:
>They aren't related in any way.
>Maria is the "perfect Mary"

Well, which one is it? They can't both be true.

Quote:
Mary wanted James to move on with his life.

This scene wasn't literally a conversation with Mary. In fact, this is James merely reconciling this decision with himself.

Quote:
Maria seems to really care about Laura [. . .]

And that's why Maria goes out of her way to completely avoid Laura, right? This is the primary reason that the scene between her and Eddie was moved indoors. The illusion would have been shattered otherwise and we'd have no real plot.

I'm not saying she's 100% Mary. You'd be hard pressed to find someone that does argue this. But she indisputably possesses some of her memories. It's been generally understood for years now that some of Mary's psychic energy was a contributor.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 08 Aug 2012
Notes left: 187
Trauma_ wrote:
James only remembers the video tape after being reminded of it.
-"You were always so forgetful"


But he never really forgot about it. I mean, memories like this can be rescued later. He didn't completely forgot about it, it was in his memory but further back. Like the fact he killer Mary. He never forgot, we simply didn't remembered it. That's why the tape is there for, at least. I don't see why Maria would't know about the tape from James. After all, she's part of his unconscious mind.

Or maybe, he didn't even forgot. He just might never mentioned it before because it was unimportant. Come to think of it, the only reason he remembers the Lakeview Hotel when he meets Maria is the fact he had a flashback about the tape when Maria asked "Are you sure this was your special place?"

Quote:
That said, James wanted Maria to seduce him.

Yes, and this is why he acts completely apprehensive to her advances throughout the game. You're assertion is flawed.[/spoiler]

Then does she does it then? James wanted to be with Maria, at least to a certain degree. Otherwise we would not have the Maria ending. "I wanted to be with you (referring to Mary), even with a illusion of you"

Quote:
[. . .]That said, James wanted Maria to seduce him. After all, he made her, in every detail. No wonder she's supposed to be a stripper from Heaven's Night.

Wrong again. You're assuming that James had some behemoth case of blue balls.[/spoiler]

Well, didn't he? That why the mannequins represent, after all. After all, try to stay three years without sex, specially right after the honeymoon.

Quote:
He wanted to be lead astray.

He wanted to kill himself, and then to find his wife the instant he stepped into town. He also clearly gets impatient when Maria starts dicking him around during the prison cell scene- not entirely indicative of someone who 'wants to be lead astray'. In fact, I'd say it's nearly antonymous.[/spoiler]

Like I said, James had many desires at once. The desired to be punished. The desire to be with Mary, the desire for sex, the desire to go on with his life. Each of this wishes are reflected in the endings.

Quote:
So, Maria can't be part Mary.

The fact that she knows of things that not even James knows/remembers proves your assertion incorrect.

I believe I already made my point about that.

Quote:
>They aren't related in any way.
>Maria is the "perfect Mary"

Well, which one is it? They can't both be true.[/spoiler]

I meant related in a sense of creation. Mary had nothing to do with Maria's creation (Not directly at least). Mary's dead. James made Maria to be the "perfect Mary" prototype: His beloved wife that also is very sexy. The desire to be with her is Maria's raison d'être.

Quote:
Mary wanted James to move on with his life.

This scene wasn't literally a conversation with Mary. In fact, this is James merely reconciling this decision with himself.[/spoiler]

I believe I also pointed that out before, when I said something like "This scene is James talking to his own conscience and getting to a resolution" or something. Mary did said in her letter for James to move on.
"I can't tell you to remember be, but I can`t bear you to forget me"
"Do what's best for you, James"

Quote:
Maria seems to really care about Laura [. . .]

And that's why Maria goes out of her way to completely avoid Laura, right? This is the primary reason that the scene between her and Eddie was moved indoors. The illusion would have been shattered otherwise and we'd have no real plot.[/quote]

Maria does care about Laura, yes. She point it out at least two or three times, I think. The only reason why she does not have any contact with Laura, like you said, It would shatter her reason to be, and foil her plans with James.

I think of Mary less like a person and more like a phenomenon. Like, she's a figment of James' imagination, and that's pretty much all.

_________________
"Good people should love their enemies" - Seu Madruga


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
Notes left: 494
Quote:
He never forgot

Then why did he think he was looking for his dead wife? He only really expressed any remorse after realizing what he'd done.

Quote:
He never forgot, we simply didn't remembered it. That's why the tape is there for, at least. I don't see why Maria would't know about the tape from James.

Because he forgot about it. This is why his objective was to find his wife, not the tape, despite the fact that her body was in the back seat.

Quote:
Then does she does it then? James wanted to be with Maria, at least to a certain degree.

Are you an adherent to the idea of the Maria ending being the orthodox one by any chance? Just curious. We also have a dog ending, this does not mean he wanted to meet up with a random dog as his journey came to a close.

I do not believe for a second that he wanted to be with Maria.

Quote:
Come to think of it, the only reason he remembers the Lakeview Hotel when he meets Maria is the fact he had a flashback about the tape when Maria asked "Are you sure this was your special place?"

He doesn't even mention the tape. He simply focused his gaze towards the hotel, because- you know... they stayed there?

Quote:
Well, didn't he?

No, not really. It's generally the people that overplay the sexual themes the most that have some issues of their own to work through. Who says he went an entire 3 years without sex anyways? She was only diagnosed with the condition 3 years ago, it doesn't necessarily indicate that it advanced to the stage where Mary became an unfuckable puddle of viral goo.

Quote:
The desired to be punished.

He doesn't even remember what he did. He doesn't even know what he did until near the end of the last act despite the fact that her body is in the car. How many times must I reiterate this?

Quote:
Quote:
The fact that she knows of things that not even James knows/remembers proves your assertion incorrect.

I believe I already made my point about that.

And I've completely disseminated it. Multiple times.

Quote:
I meant related in a sense of creation. Mary had nothing to do with Maria's creation (Not directly at least).

I've given multiple pieces of evidence to show otherwise.

Quote:
Mary's dead.

Yeah? She still stayed in a town whose metaphysical properties have a bizarre habit of soaking in peoples psychic energy, and she's expressed an affinity for these properties.

Here's the last piece of the puzzle, since you've ignored the obvious. The original scenario called for each of the characters to have their own doppelgangers. Many of these elements were discarded, but also carried over to future titles. Yes, this includes James, Eddie, and Angela. Though they simply correspond to the patients in the doctors memo.

According to Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle
Quote:
name: Maria
age: 25
sex: f
job: dancer

profile: A woman who bears an uncanny resemblance to Mary, although
her personality and taste in clothing are completely opposite. For
some reason, she tags along with James.

creator's comment

In the original scenario, the heroine also had an existence characterized
by a double personality. The first personality is "Mary," so for the
other, the name "Maria" is derived from that.


The fact that you have a hard time understanding that Maria is partly constructed from Mary's psychic energy is absolutely bizarre. This has been the general consensus for quite a few years now. James may have been the catalyst for her existence, but to deny that there's a bit of Mary in here is strange.


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 Sep 2014
Notes left: 22
Last seen at: Toluca Lake
I believe Mary left a strong enough impression on the town when she was there on her honeymoon. She clearly had some kind of affinity to the energy there from how much she loved the place. Definitely enough for her to leave psychic echos in the place long after she left.

Perhaps it was her overwhelming desire to return that helped in the creation of Maria. By reincarnating as Maria she finally returned to the town, in a sense.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
I think a major hangup on HeartlessBastard's part is the idea that one must be physically in Silent Hill to effect it. This is pretty explicitly not the case, as Silent Hill can call people.

It can call forth the living, why not the dead? Ghosts exist, as Ernest proves. Why can Mary not be drawn to the town by her regrets and attachments to the people she left behind, both of which went to Silent Hill, before moving on to whatever is waiting for her?

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Ghosts are an existing thing in Silent Hill. True. But their involvement in the story development is minimal. There's a fraction of Mary inside Maria, but a fraction not substantial enough to act self-consciously. Maria's personality and choices are a result of James mixed up feelings.

What I'm saying is that Mary's "ghost" can "possess" Maria, yes, but that's simply the town's way of recycling and using various elements and essences to accomplish what it has to accomplish: lead James to the truth, making him come to terms with himself. The town might have recycled Mary's psychic presence to push James along the path, but in the end, it's mostly thanks to James. The town created something that James needed in order to keep on going. But that something is still James' construction. Mary's presence or not, it's irrelevant, as it all comes down to the significance of the task, not the metaphysical matter. Just like the town's power... We know what it does and how it acts, but not what it actually is, because that's not of any relevance to the plot.

The same conclusion can be drawn from Homecoming's bosses. Are the bosses projections of the guilt felt by the parents or simply ghosts of children executing their revenge. For instance, Margaret escapes Asphyxia's assault. She's the only one to survive her punisher. Why? If the monster was Nora's ghost, why didn't it simply kill her like the rest of them did, despite Margaret's state of mind. I'd say because Margaret "controls" it. She doesn't feel responsible for the happenings that took place in Shepherd's Glenn. Therefore, whether there are fractions of living essences within manifestations or not, it's not of primal relevance.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 08 Aug 2012
Notes left: 187
Trauma_ wrote:
Then why did he think he was looking for his dead wife? He only really expressed any remorse after realizing what he'd done.

...Because he forgot about it. This is why his objective was to find his wife, not the tape, despite the fact that her body was in the back seat.


To me, at least, he never forgot. If he did, he would feel no remorse, like you said. If that's the case, then what the point of even being punished? You can't feel guilty for something you don't remember doing, right? If James really forgot (As opposed to my belief that he's merely repressing this terrible memory), then why is he being punished for?

He remembers the tape, because he remembers what's recorded in it, as we can see in the flashback when he meets Maria.
He also remembers the town's executioners from the past, he saw in his first visit three years prior the events of the game. That's why Red Pyramid Thing appears, you see.


Quote:
Are you an adherent to the idea of the Maria ending being the orthodox one by any chance?


I believe that all ending all equally true. Except the joke ones, of course. All the them show an aspect of James. In Maria ending, the part of James that wanted to be with Maria takes over his will.

Quote:
I do not believe for a second that he wanted to be with Maria.


"I wanted to see you, even a illusion of you! That's why I came here!"
"Maria, I want you. I want yo with me - What about Mary - It's ok, I have you"

Quote:
He doesn't even mention the tape. He simply focused his gaze towards the hotel, because- you know... they stayed there?


Then why a fraction of the tape appears at this particular moment when he remembers the hotel? Bugger. Seemed to me that he remembered that time when he forgot the tape in the hotel.

Quote:
No, not really. It's generally the people that overplay the sexual themes the most that have some issues of their own to work through. Who says he went an entire 3 years without sex anyways? She was only diagnosed with the condition 3 years ago, it doesn't necessarily indicate that it advanced to the stage where Mary became an unfuckable puddle of viral goo.


Overplay, really? There's nothing to overplay. The game is full of sexual references. The mannequins, Lying Figure and the Bubble Head Nurses sexy legs, Maria's endless sexual innuendos, Red Pyramid Thing and all the raping. Even Lost Memories states it. Hell, even Silent Hill wiki (which particularly I don't like very much) has a article talking about it

Quote:
Here's the last piece of the puzzle, since you've ignored the obvious. The original scenario called for each of the characters to have their own doppelgangers. Many of these elements were discarded, but also carried over to future titles. Yes, this includes James, Eddie, and Angela. Though they simply correspond to the patients in the doctors memo.

According to Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle
Quote:
name: Maria
age: 25
sex: f
job: dancer

profile: A woman who bears an uncanny resemblance to Mary, although
her personality and taste in clothing are completely opposite. For
some reason, she tags along with James.

creator's comment

In the original scenario, the heroine also had an existence characterized
by a double personality. The first personality is "Mary," so for the
other, the name "Maria" is derived from that.


Whoa, there. You can't use stuff the creators scrapped. It's like stating that Elle is Laura because that was the original intention.

Quote:
The fact that you have a hard time understanding that Maria is partly constructed from Mary's psychic energy is absolutely bizarre. This has been the general consensus for quite a few years now. James may have been the catalyst for her existence, but to deny that there's a bit of Mary in here is strange.


Really? 'Coz I never heard about it before.

AuraTwilight wrote:
It can call forth the living, why not the dead? Ghosts exist, as Ernest proves. Why can Mary not be drawn to the town by her regrets and attachments to the people she left behind, both of which went to Silent Hill, before moving on to whatever is waiting for her?


That's the thing: I don't believe in ghosts. I believe Ernest in BFAW is just a bunch of echos of intense feelings "emanated" by the Ernest guy during years of seclusion in his manor. He's sorrow with his daughter, his obsession with the White Oil, etc...

mikefile wrote:
Ghosts are an existing thing in Silent Hill. True. But their involvement in the story development is minimal. There's a fraction of Mary inside Maria, but a fraction not substantial enough to act self-consciously. Maria's personality and choices are a result of James mixed up feelings.

What I'm saying is that Mary's "ghost" can "possess" Maria, yes, but that's simply the town's way of recycling and using various elements and essences to accomplish what it has to accomplish: lead James to the truth, making him come to terms with himself. The town might have recycled Mary's psychic presence to push James along the path, but in the end, it's mostly thanks to James. The town created something that James needed in order to keep on going. But that something is still James' construction. Mary's presence or not, it's irrelevant, as it all comes down to the significance of the task, not the metaphysical matter. Just like the town's power... We know what it does and how it acts, but not what it actually is, because that's not of any relevance to the plot.

The same conclusion can be drawn from Homecoming's bosses. Are the bosses projections of the guilt felt by the parents or simply ghosts of children executing their revenge. For instance, Margaret escapes Asphyxia's assault. She's the only one to survive her punisher. Why? If the monster was Nora's ghost, why didn't it simply kill her like the rest of them did, despite Margaret's state of mind. I'd say because Margaret "controls" it. She doesn't feel responsible for the happenings that took place in Shepherd's Glenn. Therefore, whether there are fractions of living essences within manifestations or not, it's not of primal relevance.


Thank you, you just relieved a huge weight form my shoulders. If Maria does carries a memory from Mary, it's just too small, since Maria is doing exactly the opposite of what Mary would want. I like to believe Maria is just 100 percent there for James and him only. She's part of James, embodies his feelings, and is ready to give James what he want. She even appeals to him: "I will never yell at you, and make you feel bad. That's what you wanted!".

I just think everything that happens in the game is just revolving around James. Even Eddie, Laura and Angela, plot wise, they just reflect what James can become (Maria, Leave and In Walter ending, respectively). Maria's not there to exercises Mary's revenge, but to punish James and bring him to a resolution of his choosing. That's the beauty of the thing. If Mary's spirit is somehow in Silent Hill is just irrelevant to James.

_________________
"Good people should love their enemies" - Seu Madruga


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
That's the thing: I don't believe in ghosts. I believe Ernest in BFAW is just a bunch of echos of intense feelings "emanated" by the Ernest guy during years of seclusion in his manor. He's sorrow with his daughter, his obsession with the White Oil, etc...


What's the difference? There's enough of his thoughts and feelings there that it's able to construct his thinking self and awareness. It might as well be him in every way that matters.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
Notes left: 494
Quote:
To me, at least, he never forgot. If he did, he would feel no remorse.

He does feel no remorse, because... y'know, he doesn't even remember doing it. Thus the entire point of the game.

Quote:
He remembers the tape, because he remembers what's recorded in it, as we can see in the flashback when he meets Maria.

Ok, I'll give you that one.

Quote:
He also remembers the town's executioners from the past, he saw in his first visit three years prior the events of the game. That's why Red Pyramid Thing appears, you see.

He only says "It's him..." when he encounters the painting.

Quote:
"I wanted to see you, even a illusion of you! That's why I came here!"

He came to town to commit suicide, as even you have acknowledged. It helps to keep your stories straight. This is from the Maria ending specifically though, the James that earns the Maria ending has vastly different motivations from the James that earns the Leave ending.

Quote:
Overplay, really? There's nothing to overplay.

Sure there is. Have you seen Silent Hill fans try and discuss the sexual themes in the series? I'm no prude, but a 10 year old in their first sex-ed class has a more mature perspective towards sex than those dingdongs. I didn't say there weren't sexual themes- just that they were exaggerated.

And for the raging boner R.P.T seems to have- one case of him "raping" monsters is too circumstantial to be taken at face value. We never see this behavior towards the most blatantly sexualized monsters in the game (Maria & the nurses- as Maria is nothing but a monster herself)

Quote:
Whoa, there. You can't use stuff the creators scrapped. It's like stating that Elle is Laura because that was the original intention.

I don't think anyone with eyes is falling for that. Maria being Mary's counterpart is clearly one thing they decided not to scrap.

Quote:
That's the thing: I don't believe in ghosts.

I don't believe in malevolent god-beings summoned by way of ritual immolation, or red liquids that can de-parasitize people either- but these are both things featured in the games. It's called suspension of disbelief.


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 Sep 2014
Notes left: 22
Last seen at: Toluca Lake
Pyramid Head is not raping the monsters, he is just abusing them to show his dominance. The designers state in the making of that they made it look suggestive as a way of disturbing the player.

That's all it is, suggestive.

The reason it stops early on is the shock factor would have worn off very quickly.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
Notes left: 494
JamesInWater wrote:
Pyramid Head is not raping the monsters, he is just abusing them to show his dominance. The designers state in the making of that they made it look suggestive as a way of disturbing the player.

That's all it is, suggestive.

The reason it stops early on is the shock factor would have worn off very quickly.

My thoughts precisely.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 08 Aug 2012
Notes left: 187
AuraTwilight wrote:
Quote:
That's the thing: I don't believe in ghosts. I believe Ernest in BFAW is just a bunch of echos of intense feelings "emanated" by the Ernest guy during years of seclusion in his manor. He's sorrow with his daughter, his obsession with the White Oil, etc...


What's the difference? There's enough of his thoughts and feelings there that it's able to construct his thinking self and awareness. It might as well be him in every way that matters.


The difference is: First, in Silent Hill, one does not need to die in order to have these feelings and thoughts echoed. Such as Alessa, in the first game, specially in Nowhere. We even see her child self in the place the ritual occurred.
Second, Silent Hill can absorb these, er... things... and echo them later. If Ernest wasn't in Silent Hill, he would't become a ghost, right?

But I see your point, doesn't' make much difference.

Trauma_ wrote:
He does feel no remorse, because... y'know, he doesn't even remember doing it. Thus the entire point of the game.


Really? Because, to me, he unconsciously remembers everything. He's just in a deep state of denial. Hell, even when Laura starts saying her version of the story, he just interrupts her and screams at her, because he knows she's going to tell him the truth.

Besides, how is he going to manifest something he does not know? If Mary is warped in cloth in his car, why does the cloth manifests itself so much in his otherwolrd, etc and etc..

Quote:
Sure there is. Have you seen Silent Hill fans try and discuss the sexual themes in the series? I'm no prude, but a 10 year old in their first sex-ed class has a more mature perspective towards sex than those dingdongs. I didn't say there weren't sexual themes- just that they were exaggerated.


I don't think I have exaggerated, honestly. But I know what you mean.

Quote:
We never see this behavior towards the most blatantly sexualized monsters in the game (Maria & the nurses- as Maria is nothing but a monster herself)


I personally think the most sexualized monster in the mannequin. The nurses are mostly to do with Mary's hospitalization, while the mannequins... well, they do have two sets of sexual organs each.

Quote:
Maria being Mary's counterpart is clearly one thing they decided not to scrap.


Well, yes, they did. After all, this is never stated or even hinted in the game. Even Mary before the last boss fight asks: "That's why you created this Maria person?". Maria is clearly James' thing, and his only.

Quote:
I don't believe in malevolent god-beings summoned by way of ritual immolation, or red liquids that can de-parasitize people either- but these are both things featured in the games. It's called suspension of disbelief.


No, I mean, I don't believe in Ghosts in Silent Hill, you know. I'm not so sure about that in real life :D

_________________
"Good people should love their enemies" - Seu Madruga


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
Notes left: 494
Quote:
Well, yes, they did. After all, this is never stated or even hinted in the game.

Except for the fact that she knows things that James has absolutely no business knowing and that being Mary's counterpart is something that was carried over to the final scenario. Like we've been trying to tell you. Jesus...

Quote:
No, I mean, I don't believe in Ghosts in Silent Hill, you know. I'm not so sure about that in real life.

So... have you never played Silent Hill 4?

Quote:
I personally think the most sexualized monster in the mannequin.

You can't be serious.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
The difference is: First, in Silent Hill, one does not need to die in order to have these feelings and thoughts echoed. Such as Alessa, in the first game, specially in Nowhere. We even see her child self in the place the ritual occurred.
Second, Silent Hill can absorb these, er... things... and echo them later. If Ernest wasn't in Silent Hill, he would't become a ghost, right?

But I see your point, doesn't' make much difference.


What about the ghosts Heather can encounter outside of Silent Hill? You can apparently become a ghost anywhere in the Silent Hill universe.

Also, the Native Americans of the region claimed to speak to the dead before Alessa made it capable of absorbing and echoing thoughts. That was explicitly her doing. So...?

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
Last seen at: Chicago
I like how a lot about Maria's character, what she is and her meaning within the game, is left to the player's imagination.

One really cool thing is the fact that the final boss can either call itself Mary or Maria, depending on which ending path you're on. Almost as if reality changes depending on the choices you make.

_________________
www.flipsidecomics.com


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
In all fairness, Native Americans (and later, the Order's religion) also attributed a God to the Otherworld. And the reality of God is being clearly diminished throughout the whole series.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 08 Aug 2012
Notes left: 187
Trauma_ wrote:
Except for the fact that she knows things that James has absolutely no business knowing and that being Mary's counterpart is something that was carried over to the final scenario. Like we've been trying to tell you. Jesus...


I give up on this topic. I've made my point and you've made yours, and we just don't seen to agree, so, let's just leave it at that, since both of us don't have any new or relevant information about this particular discussion.

Quote:
So... have you never played Silent Hill 4?


They are just creatures that come from Walter Sullivan's mind, as a memory of the killings and his belief that the spirits of his victims would be in his world. Just a belief being manifested, nothing like real spirits or something.

Quote:
Quote:
I personally think the most sexualized monster in the mannequin.

You can't be serious.


From Lost Memories, page 48:
===================
Bubble Head Nurse: "Bubble Head Nurse." Its grotesquely swollen head faces the wrong way. A being that is suggestive of Mary's hospitalization.

Mannequin: A manifestation of James' natural urges and inclinations. Accordingly, it is abused by Pyramid Head.
===================

I'm not denying that Bubble Head Nurse is sexualized. She is, but the Mannequin is much more specific.

AuraTwilight wrote:
What about the ghosts Heather can encounter outside of Silent Hill?


I believe I said something about it in another topic. There's a good reason this particular subway ghost (Since it's the only one I can remember right now. I got a little confused you mentioned "ghosts") can only appear if Heather reads about the suicide and the supernatural magazine: It's her manifestation.

Since Heather read about the guy that died in the train platform and later about ghosts and stuff, her fear was unconsciously manifested.

Quote:
Also, the Native Americans of the region claimed to speak to the dead before Alessa made it capable of absorbing and echoing thoughts. That was explicitly her doing. So...?


Since always, Silent Hill had this power of manifesting people's though into reality. It's like believing so hard it becomes truth. Alessa only made it more, stranger... I don't wanna get in that merit now, but, if the town can manifest a god from people's delusion, why not spirits of the dead.

_________________
"Good people should love their enemies" - Seu Madruga


Top
   
 

My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Does maria ruin the game?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 22 Sep 2014
Notes left: 348
Last seen at: Kent (England)
I like this discussion, but I wish people could stop stating their opinions as if they are established facts.

Here is what we DON'T know.

We don't now that Maria is really there or just in James' Head, or how much of Mary is in there. Same with all other characters, they may not be real.

We don't Know whether Silent Hill is doing it to him or if he is indeed punishing himself.

We don't know if SH created PH or if he is a manifestation of James' guilt, or both.

We don't know that it has been 3 years since James killed Mary, there is some evidence that suggests it may have just happened. (mostly because of Laura) but is Laura real? Is she lying, we simply don't know.

We don't know how Maria is able to die 3 times and still be fine.

There are lots of other things we don't know about this game but these are the main ones I could think of.

Where did Eddie get a pizza???

And whoever said that they don't believe in ghosts that is fine, but you can't say that because you don't believe in ghosts in real life that they don't exist in SH as we have met them in the games multiple times.

I have my own views on these matters but I shall keep them to myself for fear of ritual insults.

You cannot claim to KNOW for a fact how it is because nobody does, this includes me and it includes you.

But my response to the OP's question: If you don't like Maria and you think she ruins the game then for you this is the case, if you don't then she doesn't, it's just down to your personal view, there is no right or wrong here.


Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: