Real final? and in water question (SPOILER ALERT)

[Oddish]

How did you find out about that...

Well, I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. But it also explains how I got access to the files with the rejected endings in them (seen here: http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14918 )

Or did you actually think I was creative enough to make those up myself?

[PeachySakura24]

Oddish, you have a sick and twisted imagination. I like it.

[Oddish]

On a more serious note, there is one serious issue with "In Water": the logistics of Jamesie's suicide.

Figure that James is at the hotel, having had Mary die without conveying her forgiveness to him. So, he picks up her corpse and heads out of the room, intent on immolating himself in a watery grave.

Figure that Mary, emaciated by disease, still weighs at least three-quarters of her healthy weight, call it 90 pounds. This is dead weight, which makes it even more difficult to lift. And yet James (though already exhausted by multiple fights to the death, not to mention acid burns, bullet holes, and other assorted cuts and bruises) manages to tote her out of the hotel, down the stairs, across the lake, through Silent Hill, through the graveyard, up the trail, and back to his car. Without collapsing.

Did I miss anything?

[crucifix]

And yet James (though already exhausted by multiple fights to the death, not to mention acid burns, bullet holes, and other assorted cuts and bruises) manages to tote her out of the hotel, down the stairs, across the lake, through Silent Hill, through the graveyard, up the trail, and back to his car. Without collapsing.

HEALTH DRINKS DUH

... but actually, i've never really thought about that. i figured his car was closer to the hotel, or it simply manifested itself there due to his desire for suicide (as we know things are wont to do in silent hill).

isn't mary's body supposed to be in the trunk, though? in reality? so, if he's actually "carrying" her all the way back to the parking lot area, it could have been a sort of hallucination. or something.

[Oddish]

Oh, of course. James has sulfuric acid all over his face, he's been pounded by nurses with metal poles, and Eddie'a parked three or four .357 Magnum rounds in him. So he chugs a health drink and he's all better.

OK, that's all game mechanics, of course. Still, where's his car manifest itself? Does he go into the garden or onto the pier and, hey, a car! How'd that get there? Never mind... vroom, screech, crunch, splash, gurgle.

[AuraTwilight]

I always assumed that since Mary's Room isn't in any realistic location, he could just walk out the door and end up anywhere, perhaps merely a block away from his car.

[somatotonia]

>It's the rebirth ending! LOL
What's so funny?

Beat me to that one. Quicklinks can be fun!

[Glazarus]

Although I agree that rebirth is the final ending, I have always thought that dismissing "In Water" on the grounds that the sound doesn't relate to any logical movement of the car is rather bleak. Watch any movie and find out that it's illogical. Storytelling is also about cutting away unnecessary parts and "get to the fucking point" as anyone at a screenplay-seminar would say.

Here is why I think In Water isn't the correct ending:
James may have had the idea to got to Silent Hill to kill himself, which is stated by Team Silent in Lost Memories. So "In Water" may have been what was intended for James all along. But every story, every good main character in a story evolves during that story. If James had the intention of killing himself in the beginning, it seems rather bleak that he actually performs it after everything he learned.
If he did it, he wouldn't have evolved into a "higher knowledge about himelf".

Actually, the ending that I prefer in terms of best storytelling is "Leave". He faces his demons, both outer and inner and gain the strength to go on and not kill himself. It's the end where James evolves the most, it's the end where James find the true inner peace. The fact that Laura also leaves gives the end to her story as well, along with a hint that she might forgive him in the end when the whole truth is understood by her.

Rebirth is more of a loss the a gain for me. He is so selfish that he goes to such lengths as to revive her. Mary had come into piece with her death, she had accepted it. It's only done for James selfish purpose of getting Mary back. He also doesn't gain anything by it, he remains in his selfish old ways. Also, I have the theory that James can't leave the mist before gaining both strength and self-insight. By doing this, he will have Mary back, but they can never leave Silent Hill's mist. In knowing that James and Mary didn't return, by what Frank told Henry in Sh4, this is why I think Rebirth is the real ending and a tragic one because of it.

...as for "In Water", the sound effects used is from a CD of sound effects. I'ts pretty impossible to use them in a logical way for the story without any visual references. I have heard radio plays with the same kind of "illogical" events just by analyzing the sound effects. So to have that as a basis for it not being true is weak, find a better explaination, like I have tried to do.

[AuraTwilight]

Rebirth is more of a loss the a gain for me. He is so selfish that he goes to such lengths as to revive her. Mary had come into piece with her death, she had accepted it. It's only done for James selfish purpose of getting Mary back. He also doesn't gain anything by it, he remains in his selfish old ways. Also, I have the theory that James can't leave the mist before gaining both strength and self-insight. By doing this, he will have Mary back, but they can never leave Silent Hill's mist. In knowing that James and Mary didn't return, by what Frank told Henry in Sh4, this is why I think Rebirth is the real ending and a tragic one because of it.

Though there's also the consideration of whether the Rebirth ritual worked exactly as we would've expected, since we have no precedent to work with. Maybe it brought back Mary as a zombie or monster. Maybe Mary came back as a baby. Maybe it brought back Maria, or Mary came back and was still sick, trapping James in a loop.

[EngulfedInFog]

i think that in reality, whichever you like the best is the real one, and that's all part of the appeal of the series.

however being that brutal and morbid ideas are fine and dandy in Silent Hill, I have a little theory:

You notice that in the game James sees tons of bodies lying around Silent Hill? They all look the same, because they're all him. With so much death in the air and all of it involving him, I think that James is either being told by the town itself to take his own life, or he's wrestling with the thought of killing himself. So I guess "In Water" would be the gnarliest ending, if one was to assume he lost the battle to keep his life and decided to say "fuck it, I'm probably crazy anyway."

[GameMasterShadow]

The first time I beat SH2, I got the In Water ending, and I was pretty pissed off, for the main reason that it seemed completely out of character for James. I mean, it's like:

PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:

Mary: Oh, James, s'okay you killed me and stuff, 'cause I told you to and whatever, so go forgive yourself and BE HAPPY.
James: Oh, well now that I've gone through hell and high water in Silent Hill, fighting tooth and nail against impossible demons and the most hellish nightmare EVER, and have finally gotten redemption and your forgiveness, I think I'll just go KILL MYSELF NOW.
And then for ten minutes, after listening to him go crash in the lake, you hear Mary rant on and on about how he should be happy, and live for himself, and not to be burdened with guilt, and I'm sitting here thinking, "Are you serious? Why am I listening to Mary tell James it's okay when he just killed himself? Bit superfluous, isn't it?"

Never mind that it would have been an awful lot of unnecessary work to get back to his car and all, but again In Water just seems to go against everything you've been led up to at that point. I could see Rebirth being the real ending, easy, but In Water?
Personally, I think In Water is punishment from Konami for playing badly.

[Droo]

The first time I beat SH2, I got the In Water ending, and I was pretty pissed off, for the main reason that it seemed completely out of character for James. I mean, it's like:

PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:

Mary: Oh, James, s'okay you killed me and stuff, 'cause I told you to and whatever, so go forgive yourself and BE HAPPY.
James: Oh, well now that I've gone through hell and high water in Silent Hill, fighting tooth and nail against impossible demons and the most hellish nightmare EVER, and have finally gotten redemption and your forgiveness, I think I'll just go KILL MYSELF NOW.
And then for ten minutes, after listening to him go crash in the lake, you hear Mary rant on and on about how he should be happy, and live for himself, and not to be burdened with guilt, and I'm sitting here thinking, "Are you serious? Why am I listening to Mary tell James it's okay when he just killed himself? Bit superfluous, isn't it?"

Never mind that it would have been an awful lot of unnecessary work to get back to his car and all, but again In Water just seems to go against everything you've been led up to at that point. I could see Rebirth being the real ending, easy, but In Water?
Personally, I think In Water is punishment from Konami for playing badly.

No, that's called "tragedy", sweetheart. Even with Mary's exoneration of James, and profession of understanding, he still cannot cope with his actions and takes his life. The reading of the letter after he crashes into the lake for effect.

One could argue that it was a lot of unnecessary work to guide Harry through SH1 only to have him be shiv'd offscreen in SH3, but that's what happens sometimes. Sometimes, the hero LOSES.

[Oddish]

The odd fact is that some people do seem to like "In Water", be it the tragedy, or the romance, or the just plain nihilism of it. I don't get it, and I'm not sure I want to. Personally, I don't really see a difference between achieving "In Water" and getting kicked into paste by a mannequin, cleaved in half by Pyramid Head, or turned into bloody Swiss cheese by Eddie. Either way, you die. IMO, it's losing the blasted game.

But if it's your thing, then knock yourself out.

[Droo]

Because "In Water" has James CHOOSE death. By his own actions. Getting killed by the monsters is distinctive in meaning from James' own wilful suicide.

It also turns the video game convention of the hero riding off happily into the sunset on its head.

[Oddish]

So if you just put down your PS2 controller and have James stand there while PH bisects him like an angle or Eddie riddles him with bullets, that's equivalent to the "In Water" ending. I mean, the player's actions cause James to CHOOSE death there, just as not healing and looking at the knife cause his to CHOOSE death in "In Water" Right?

[Fargo]

I find it curious that you guys don't seem to take under account the hints that are given to us during the lenght of the entire game from the very beginning that point out which one of the endings is the real one, yeah sure, the ending you get in your first run is supposed to be the correct ending for you, BUT, during the opening of the game at around 1:30 we see James carrying in his arms someone that seems to be Mary as he makes his way through one of the cell blocks in the prison, hinting that it could possibly be linked to the "In Water" ending.

And speaking of the prison, just before you make your way out of it you go through a graveyard with different tombstones lined up in different rows, (when I read Walter Sullivan's grave, I almost shat bricks ) in the far left corner there are three of them with an opening in the ground for each one of them, one reads

PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:

Angela Orosco, the other one reads Eddie Dombrowski, and finally, the other one reads James Sunderland, and so, it is well known by those that have finished the game that both Eddie and Angela eventually die, and so does James in the "In Water" ending, those three graves are a hint of what's comming to all three characters, which makes me believe that Eddie as well as Angela HAD to jump into their own graves eventually in that cementery at some point of the game, just like James did.

Sorry if this sounds a bit complicated, but this is my theory about the matter that makes me believe that "In Water" is the real ending.

[AuraTwilight]

I find it curious that you guys don't seem to take under account the hints that are given to us during the lenght of the entire game from the very beginning that point out which one of the endings is the real one, yeah sure, the ending you get in your first run is supposed to be the correct ending for you, BUT, during the opening of the game at around 1:30 we see James carrying in his arms someone that seems to be Mary as he makes his way through one of the cell blocks in the prison, hinting that it could possibly be linked to the "In Water" ending.

Or just referencing the big reveal in general involving James' guilt.

And speaking of the prison, just before you make your way out of it you go through a graveyard with different tombstones lined up in different rows, (when I read Walter Sullivan's grave, I almost shat bricks Shocked) in the far left corner there are three of them with an opening in the ground for each one of them, one reads
Spoiler:

Angela Orosco, the other one reads Eddie Dombrowski, and finally, the other one reads James Sunderland, and so, it is well known by those that have finished the game that both Eddie and Angela eventually die, and so does James in the "In Water" ending, those three graves are a hint of what's comming to all three characters, which makes me believe that Eddie as well as Angela HAD to jump into their own graves eventually in that cementery at some point of the game, just like James did.

The graves had nothing to do with the eventual death of the characters, it was an entrance into the Trial of the Abyss, where one must face their buried darkness in a literal manner. It's an Orpheus allusion.

[alone in the town]

I find it curious that you guys don't seem to take under account the hints that are given to us during the lenght of the entire game from the very beginning that point out which one of the endings is the real one.

Hint: Five minutes before the game ends, James tells Angela "I'd never kill myself."

[Fargo]

The graves had nothing to do with the eventual

PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:

death of the characters

, it was an entrance into the Trial of the Abyss, where one must face their buried darkness in a literal manner. It's an Orpheus allusion.

Pretty interesting, I didn't thought about it under that kind of light, but umm... spoiler tags, please?

I find it curious that you guys don't seem to take under account the hints that are given to us during the lenght of the entire game from the very beginning that point out which one of the endings is the real one.

Hint: Five minutes before the game ends, James tells Angela "I'd never kill myself."

True enough, but even in real life some of those who have really bad depression problems wouldn't really confess to others that they actually plan to kill themselves, they lose all hope in life and don't want other people's simpathy or pitty... for all we know, maybe James was lying to himself at that moment without really knowing, who knows?

[Oddish]

James and Angela both escape the abyss, so the graves don't mean what they traditionally mean. After all, Angela and Eddie's are filled in, while both characters are still alive. A grave is normally only filled in after a body is lowered into it.

If I were interpreting the meaning, I'd say that the filled-in status of Eddie and Angela's grave meant that the characters were alive, but that their doom was sealed. James's still-unfilled grave meant that his future was still undetermined.