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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Maria Ending

Missing since: 05 Oct 2008
Notes left: 45
Two questions, both subjective I do believe...

First, what do you think happens after the Maria Ending? Do you think she has the same illness as Mary and James will kill her? Does he then return to Silent Hill and basically start over?

Second, do you think James is a bad person for taking this route? Does it make you feel differently about James ie. you like/disllike him more because of it?


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Maria Ending

Missing since: 25 Jul 2007
Notes left: 80
Last seen at: Indiana
Nikkolas wrote:
Two questions, both subjective I do believe...
First, what do you think happens after the Maria Ending? Do you think she has the same illness as Mary and James will kill her? Does he then return to Silent Hill and basically start over?


I think Maria's coughing is evidence enough that she's falling ill with the same disease that Mary had. If James doesn't kill her, she'll die. Either way, he's repeating a past mistake.

Quote:
Second, do you think James is a bad person for taking this route? Does it make you feel differently about James ie. you like/disllike him more because of it?


James is embracing a delusion, and not accepting reality. As a player and observer, I feel deeply saddened and simutaneously angry that he'd try to escape from his sins by embracing falsity. Especially after going through all he did to find the truth, and even after it was revealed to him. So yes, I must say my opinion of James is greatly lessened by this.

This reminds me of an analysis on gamefaqs that says that the "Maria" ending is the "happy" ending. It's Jame's second chance for true love. I think, if anyone is paying attention, they'll know this is as far from a true understanding of this ending as you can get.


Last edited by The Follower on 05 Dec 2008, edited 1 time in total.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 05 Oct 2008
Notes left: 45
Well I'd take it over Rebirth. Calling upon some evil higher power to get your wife back?


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 22 Nov 2008
Notes left: 79
Last seen at: PA
Personally I don't like James in this ending. Although, I guess my opinions are a little warped if I felt okay after I found out he killed his wife, but I don't like it when he finds a new woman.

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be implied that the events are going to occur all over again though.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
I agree with Follower 100%.

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Well I'd take it over Rebirth. Calling upon some evil higher power to get your wife back?


Who said it's an evil power?

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Maria Ending
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Oct 2008
Notes left: 184
Last seen at: Riverside Apartments, Room 501
The Follower wrote:
James is embracing a delusion, and not accepting reality. As a player and observer, I feel deeply saddened and simutaneously angry that he'd try to escape from his sins by embracing falsity. Especially after going through all he did to find the truth, and even after it was revealed to him.


Even though I know that what you say is true, it still frustrates me that James doesn't actually gain anything from ANY of the endings. I feel cheated out of having a proper resolution, but I guess that's how Silent Hill 2 was intended. It's a tragic love story.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Maria Ending

Missing since: 25 Jul 2007
Notes left: 80
Last seen at: Indiana
Aamon wrote:
The Follower wrote:
James is embracing a delusion, and not accepting reality. As a player and observer, I feel deeply saddened and simutaneously angry that he'd try to escape from his sins by embracing falsity. Especially after going through all he did to find the truth, and even after it was revealed to him.


Even though I know that what you say is true, it still frustrates me that James doesn't actually gain anything from ANY of the endings. I feel cheated out of having a proper resolution, but I guess that's how Silent Hill 2 was intended. It's a tragic love story.


In the "Leave" ending, he gains a lot I would argue. He accepts his past, and moves on with his life. I'd say that's gaining something.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 05 Oct 2008
Notes left: 45
Quote:
Who said it's an evil power?


Well, I don't know everything about SH but what James was going to use in Rebirth was one of The Order's rituals correct? The same cult who embraced the 21 Scaraments? I know that was only 1 sect but I just can't see the deity of such a depraved cult being anything other than evil.
Though I know some people here have said the power of SH existed before the cult so i dunno.

Quote:
James is embracing a delusion, and not accepting reality. As a player and observer, I feel deeply saddened and simutaneously angry that he'd try to escape from his sins by embracing falsity. Especially after going through all he did to find the truth, and even after it was revealed to him.


Well some people just prefer illusion to despair. [Insert philosophical mumbo-jumbo about subjective reality]
So I don't blame him for the Maria Ending. However if he is forced to relive all thos ehorrible things, I feel very sad and pity him.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Maria Ending
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Oct 2008
Notes left: 184
Last seen at: Riverside Apartments, Room 501
The Follower wrote:
In the "Leave" ending, he gains a lot I would argue. He accepts his past, and moves on with his life. I'd say that's gaining something.


But at what cost? In the end he's lost Mary, he's killed Eddie, he couldn't save Angela, and he has suffered no consequence for his actions. Does he even show remorse? (I don't recall the leave ending very well, does James have any dialogue).


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Brookhaven Receptionist
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Missing since: 29 Oct 2008
Notes left: 775
Maria: You killed Mary again?
James: That wasn’t Mary. Mary’s gone. That was just something I... Maria? Maria.
Maria: What, James?
James: I want you... I want you with me...
Maria: Are you sure?
James: C’mon. Let’s get out of here.
Maria: What about Mary?
James: It’s okay, I have you.


That's the end scene dialogue. It seems to me that could make the case that James may have simply failed to see which one was the bad illusion, and I'm not sure I blame him for it. Subconscious mind aside, if your dead wife turns into a monster and attacks you, would you be more inclined to think she's the illusion or the woman that seemingly dies multiple times and is very odd, but at least isn't monstrous, as far as you could tell? Finding out the truth - that Mary's dead by his own hands - doesn't help either case; it may actually work against leaning towards Mary, since this meant that Mary's obviously not supposed to be alive and around in any capacity.

Obviously, both ridiculous scenarios, but I think one'd be hard-pressed to say it definitively that it's obvious either way, if you were in James' shoes. I mean, as the player, we know what he sees are what's generated by his mind, but I'm not sure he does, or if he does, to what extent.

Regardless, agreed with The Follower. I guess I only meant that to me, it's not as condemnable as they feel.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 25 Jul 2007
Notes left: 80
Last seen at: Indiana
PrescitedEntity wrote:

Regardless, agreed with The Follower. I guess I only meant that to me, it's not as condemnable as they feel.


James has spent the whole game living a lie. To complete his journey and continue to live that lie, I feel, is defeating the purpose of his whole journey in the first place. You as a person may think that some people like to live in illusion, and that's okay, it's your choice. But I'd argue that the game is condemning this idea.

As a player, we also must be aware that our choices affect the ending of the game, and that we recieve the Maria ending by ignoring Mary and focusing on Maria. The requirements are that:

We don't look at Mary's letter or picture.
We hang around Maria and protect her.
We don't listen to James' and Maria's conversation in the hallway.

By choosing to follow this path, James is showing himself that he cares more about Maria (his false reality) more than he ever cared about Mary, his wife. Thus, I'd argue that James killing Mary and picking Maria at the end of the game is a deliberate choice on James' part.

It's about the worst ending that you can possibly get, because it tells us that James has learned absoutle nothing from his journey through his own personal purgatory.

Lost Memories has this to say about the ending:

A man who vehemently murders his wife a second time continues to live in a delusion.

and

James chooses Maria over Mary, a product of his delusion.

I think it's clear what Team Silent thinks of James' decision.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 06 Oct 2008
Notes left: 184
Last seen at: Riverside Apartments, Room 501
PrescitedEntity wrote:
Maria: You killed Mary again?
James: That wasn’t Mary. Mary’s gone. That was just something I... Maria? Maria.
Maria: What, James?
James: I want you... I want you with me...
Maria: Are you sure?
James: C’mon. Let’s get out of here.
Maria: What about Mary?
James: It’s okay, I have you.


That's the end scene dialogue. It seems to me that could make the case that James may have simply failed to see which one was the bad illusion, and I'm not sure I blame him for it. Subconscious mind aside, if your dead wife turns into a monster and attacks you, would you be more inclined to think she's the illusion or the woman that seemingly dies multiple times and is very odd, but at least isn't monstrous, as far as you could tell? Finding out the truth - that Mary's dead by his own hands - doesn't help either case; it may actually work against leaning towards Mary, since this meant that Mary's obviously not supposed to be alive and around in any capacity.

Obviously, both ridiculous scenarios, but I think one'd be hard-pressed to say it definitively that it's obvious either way, if you were in James' shoes. I mean, as the player, we know what he sees are what's generated by his mind, but I'm not sure he does, or if he does, to what extent.

Regardless, agreed with The Follower. I guess I only meant that to me, it's not as condemnable as they feel.


Except, we were discussing the leave ending at this point in the thread.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject:

Missing since: 05 Oct 2008
Notes left: 45
Well he didn't have much choice other than to murder Mary again.
"Do tyou think I could ever forgive you?!!?!" I think was her line before becoming a giant monster.

I won't pretend to be a great theory writer or an expert on the game but I just figured Mary in the Maria Ending was what he thought she must be like. Like he said in one of the other endings. "You must hate me." So he created that version to reflect that and by defeating it, he felt he put to rest his regrets.
I dunno.


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Brookhaven Receptionist
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Missing since: 29 Oct 2008
Notes left: 775
@ Aamon - sorry, misread, ha...

James: Mary...
Mary: James...
James: Forgive me...
Mary: I told you that I wanted to die, James. I wanted the pain to end.
James: That’s why I did it, honey. I just couldn’t watch you suffer. No! That’s not true... You also said that you didn’t want to die. The truth is I hated you. I wanted you out of the way. I wanted my life back....
Mary: James... if that were true, then why do you look so sad?
James: Mary...
Mary: James... Please... please do something for me. Go on with your life.

Leave ending dialogue.

@ The Follower - I'm not saying that the game doesn't clearly make it out to be the wrong decision, and we, knowing that this is a story, are able to easily deduce this. What I'm saying is that given what he's gone through, it's somewhat understandable that he may not have much of a grasp on reality any more. Thus, it's not unreasonable that he ends up believing that the monstrous Mary is a bad illusion in his mind, while Maria, though burdened by impossibilities, is not, seeing as how his very experience should be an impossibility.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 06 Oct 2008
Notes left: 184
Last seen at: Riverside Apartments, Room 501
One could argue that the fact he wants Mary back so much is why he chooses Maria. They look the same, and he previously just remembered that Mary is well and truly dead. Then again, I get the feeling I'm just restating the fact he chooses to continue living in his delusion...


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Brookhaven Receptionist
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Missing since: 29 Oct 2008
Notes left: 775
I don't know if I'm understood. I'm not saying that objectively, it's the right choice, and yes, it's very obvious that he's choosing to live in a delusion... to us.

I'm not sure that it's as apparent to him, if at all.

That wasn't Mary. Mary's gone. That was just something I...

IMO, reading that, I think he may have simply drawn the wrong conclusion - that Mary, not Maria was the illusion he created to punish himself with. James obviously knows that the SH scenario is conjured for him out of his guilt - he acknowledges this in the final scene with Pyramid Head in all scenarios, but it doesn't follow that because he knows everything is born of a desire for self punishment that Maria is born the same way. And given that Mary became a monster and attacked him in the Maria ending, I can't blame him for making the mistaken assumption that Mary is the final figure of punishment he needs to overcome.

Something in him stirred for Maria, the same things that stirred for Mary, and the whole point of her creation. Had it been any other situation, his getting together with Maria would simply be moving on. If he made the wrong assumption about which figure was his figure of self-punishment and desire (here, attached to Mary, which he wishes was still alive and well and punishing him for her murder)...

Well, I don't like it, nothing good will come of it, and there's definitely a more selfish edge to it, but it's not as condemnable to me as it would be if he simply said "Screw it, I haz me a new womanz," which is what it kinda sounds like you guys were saying.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject:

Missing since: 12 Jan 2008
Notes left: 1299
Much of the following is adapted from an essay I posted several months ago. It has fallen to an obscure page, and didn't make the cut for Quicklinks, but I still think it makes some valid points.

I see several possiboilities for after the Maria Ending...

One possibility is that because Maria is like the monsters, visible only to some, she is presumably subject to the same limitations as they. That would mean that once James leaves Silent Hill, Maria will cease to exist. If James wants to pursue any form of romance with Maria, he will have to take up permanent residence in Silent Hill. This does not seem particularly healthy, given that the town appears to have an unlimited number of violent creatures roaming about. Sooner or later, James will have to leave town or face a gruesome end.

A second, releted possibility is that James CANNOT leave the misty version of the world that lies between reality and the nightmarish Otherworld. He will have Maria, but can never return to reality because the issue that brought him there remains unresolved. ANd oif the monsters return, he will have to simply keep fighting of dodging them until he runs out of health drinks and/or ammunition.

A third possibility is that James’s “Maria” delusion will run its course, with Maria getting sicker and sicker, just the way Mary did. The inevitable conclusion, consisting of Jamesie snapping again and staging a repeat performance of her death, will follow. It stands to reason that he will return to Silent Hill with a heart full of guilt once again, giving the demons that live there another chance at him. Hopefully, he’ll remember his trusty shotgun and his handy-dandy wooden plank.

The fourth possibility suggests that the delusion will prove ultimately endless. Maria proved, through the course of the adventure, that she could die, just like the woman she was based upon. However, it was also proved that death was not final for her. In Silent Hill, she kept right on returning, and presumably wasn’t going to stop doing so, not until justice and vengeance were served in full. Since when that happens is subjective, James could keep right on watching Maria sicken, suffer, wither away, and die, again and again, ad infinitum.

Fifth and last, James’s delusion might be brought to an artificial end. Once those around him realize that he’s in a habit of talking to someone who isn’t there, he will probably get committed to a hospital very much like Brookhaven. Hopefully, with some judicious prescription meds and a competent counselor, he will return to reality. Because he will remain a danger to himself even after he snaps out of his fugue, he will likely remain imprisoned there for some time.

===========================

Second, is James a bad person for getting "Maria"? Again, it's a hard question to answer. The choices that the player makes to get it are not necessarily bad ones. After all, it's mandatory that James be protective of Laura, so why shouldn't he look out for Maria as well? However, in the ending itself, James is pretty revolting, at least in my opinion: he dusts off the woman he supposedly loves and settles for a delusion. It's odd that showing basic decency and humanity in the game yields the ending where Jamesie is at his most indecent, but I didn't design the game.


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Brookhaven Receptionist
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Missing since: 29 Oct 2008
Notes left: 775
Eh, I'm not concerned at the moment with what happens after, only with the ethics and whatnot of his decision, so I'll leave that for someone else to address. That was a very good read, though; I believe I've read it before while perusing the forums as a lurker, getting at least somewhat up to date.

And that second point is what I've been saying, save that I don't find James revolting. Again, I don't see why we should expect that he could discern that he's settling for a delusion - he may well have misappropriated roles.

In that case, he sees his dead wife as the burden of guilt that must be laid to rest in order for him to move on with life, hence the "Mary's gone. That was just something I..." line. Considering that he understood Pyramid Head to be the manifestation of his desire for punishment, it's not implausible to think that he meant that it was just something he manifested to punish himself, given he saw it turn into a monster n' all.

It's something that he acknowledges of Maria in the Leave ending, but to be honest, I can easily see someone making the Maria ending decision. Who are you more likely to believe to be an illusion meant to punish you - a girl who happens to bear a resemblance to your wife, or your wife herself, given that you know that she's definitely dead, and by your own hands?

I feel like I'm getting rather redundant, though, so I'll stop there for now.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Well, I don't know everything about SH but what James was going to use in Rebirth was one of The Order's rituals correct? The same cult who embraced the 21 Scaraments? I know that was only 1 sect but I just can't see the deity of such a depraved cult being anything other than evil.
Though I know some people here have said the power of SH existed before the cult so i dunno.


The spell was from the beliefs of the Native Americans that lived there, and the power of Silent Hill doesn't seem to be good or evil, it simply reflects the person. If a bunch of people ask for a God that will kill everything, it'll give you one.

Quote:
But at what cost? In the end he's lost Mary, he's killed Eddie, he couldn't save Angela, and he has suffered no consequence for his actions. Does he even show remorse? (I don't recall the leave ending very well, does James have any dialogue).


Mary was already dead, Eddie was killed in self defense, and only Angela can save herself. The latter two don't really matter, they're not James' problem, and they're not friends.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 17 May 2008
Notes left: 128
The maria ending only makes me feel bad for what James will have to suffer through later on.
Oh and to the dude who said leave is where James leaves are happy and whatnot.
The leave ending doesn't fix anything. The leave ending is like waking up from a coma and finding out a war is going on. James battle has only begun and he will have to suffer a great deal to try and get through life, He has no delusions to help him and mary isn't coming back. at least in the in water ending James suffering is over..

Man these endings are depressing..


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