Canon or no?

[AuraTwilight]

I just have to say that Travis actually being an inhuman devil child would probably be the stupidest thing to ruin the series so far, as it completely justifies Helen's attempt to harm him and makes all of Travis' psychological issues moot. It's like saying, "Oh, sorry, yea, Rebirth ending went off without a hitch. James gets to start over without any karmic repercussions and SH2 can just never happen."

[Kyou]

Canon without any doubt.
Even with flukes and mishaps.

[Radical Dreamer]

The Demon in the Flauros, the whole thing with "Samael", the birth of the Otherworld according to MMY...

The demon, Flauros, is a conjuration/reflection of the town's power, same as the monsters and the God. Don't tell me no one else has thought of that yet.

The memo in which the God is referred to as "Samael" is written by a non-believer, and non-believers were known to refer to the God with a demonic name (a la Silent Hill 3). I agree that it was stupid for Climax to put it in there, but it is explainable.

As for the existence of Otherworld prior to Silent Hill 1; well, that might be legitimate, depending on whether or not Tom is right. If he is right, it does give some credibility to my theories of there being a blank-canvas Otherworld onto which one projects his or her subconscious.

[Burning Man]

I just have to say that Travis actually being an inhuman devil child would probably be the stupidest thing to ruin the series so far, as it completely justifies Helen's attempt to harm him and makes all of Travis' psychological issues moot.

I don't know about that. Heather is considered to be "Daughter of God" and there were several attempts to kill her for instance. Are those attempts justified because she's an inhuman being? And, does it make all her psychological issues moot? And, is it a simple coincidence that the first attempt was done by, according to Douglas, an "occult freak" i.e. lunatic?

I'm not sure I find "Helen was a lunatic; that's all" idea any satisfactory. It's easy to say that according to memos, I suppose, but you have to remember that those were written in a professional opinion. Concepts such as another world is foreign and illogical to them.

I also have to ask: do we know that Helen talked about the "world beyond the mirror" to Travis? If not, it opens a whole other can of worms. Has the mirror world always been there? Was the mirror world constructed by Helen and still exists after her death?

I think this "can of worms" might be key to solving the "otherworld" issue.

[Droo]

Helen's not dead. She's still in Cedar Grove. Lisa is looking at her when Travis meets up with her just before he "fights" Helen.

"It's so sad...she just sits there. She wants her boy so badly."

[The Adversary]

So . . . Travis just barges in and kills his mother?

Right.

[AuraTwilight]

The demon, Flauros, is a conjuration/reflection of the town's power, same as the monsters and the God. Don't tell me no one else has thought of that yet.

It has, but it's still fairly problematic.

I don't know about that. Heather is considered to be "Daughter of God" and there were several attempts to kill her for instance. Are those attempts justified because she's an inhuman being? And, does it make all her psychological issues moot? And, is it a simple coincidence that the first attempt was done by, according to Douglas, an "occult freak" i.e. lunatic?

Heather isn't an inhuman being, she's a human girl with psychokinetic abilities that was revived by a deity she got impregnated with. Not normal, but not unhuman. As opposed to your suggesting that Travis is quite literally some sort of demon, and his entire psychological complex is pretty much cruxed on the destruction of his family, which he's guilty over even though it's NOT HIS FAULT. Making him an actual demon and justifying Helen's delusions negates that.

I'm not sure I find "Helen was a lunatic; that's all" idea any satisfactory. It's easy to say that according to memos, I suppose, but you have to remember that those were written in a professional opinion. Concepts such as another world is foreign and illogical to them.

Other doctors have mentioned the Otherside, so it wouldn't be without precedent.

I also have to ask: do we know that Helen talked about the "world beyond the mirror" to Travis? If not, it opens a whole other can of worms. Has the mirror world always been there? Was the mirror world constructed by Helen and still exists after her death?

I'm pretty sure he learned either from her, or from his father going, "Son, we have to let mommy stay here for a while. Bitch be nuts, talking to mirror-men an' shit."

So . . . Travis just barges in and kills his mother?

Right.

Or fights a manifestation of her, even though the real article is one layer of reality away.

[Droo]

So . . . Travis just barges in and kills his mother?

Right.

Why not? Heather just barges into Brookhaven and kills Leonard. There's nothing internally inconsistent with the suggestion that Travis confronts Helen and kills her. Travis believes his mother is dead. He's not INTENDING to kill her.

Besides, that's not what I was suggesting. I think he doesn't actually interact with Helen in the real Cedar Grove at all. The Helen he fights is a manifestation based on his fear/trauma surrounding his mother. The real Helen is just fine in Reality (as fine as a lunatic can be).

Either scenario is a possibility, though.

As for Travis knowing the nature of his mother's insantiy: don't forget, little Travis snuck into Cedar Grove and encountered his mother. We don't get to see the full scene of what was said between the two while he was there. It's very likely that the now-toally-loony Helen spouted it all off to him.

[DamienPales]

The biggest issue is the fact that the Otherworld exists before SH1. Tommy will argue that it clearly did not exist until Alessa created it. I, on the other hand, argue that the Otherworld in Origins is part of Travis' personal demons from the delusions his mother had, and thus is manifested by the town as part of his personal trial, much like Maria is created as part of James' trial.

Or maybe the Otherworld has existed for as long as Silent Hill has existed. Perhaps it's an essential part of the town itself.

We know from the history of Silent Hill presented in the second game that strange things were happening in the town even before Alessa was born. The "Little Baroness" incident is one example, and there were plenty of others going back to the Civil War and even the Native Americans who used to inhabit the area under another name. Alessa is not responsible for the oddities of Silent Hill, since there are accounts going further back that Silent Hill was never a very normal place.

And we know from Silent Hill 3 that The Order seemed to worship the Otherworld as a kind of paradisial plane of existence. High priestesses like Dahlia and Claudia were enthralled by the Otherworld, and wanted to spread it to everyone for their own religious purposes.

My feeling is that the Otherworld was never really created by anything, just a strange dimension that is felt particularly strongly in Silent Hill for as of yet unexplained reasons. Most people who enter the town never notice it, because they aren't in the right frame of mind to tap into it with mental energy. Special people can notice it and influence it, and there's an explanation why for every person who's in it in each of the games.

[Droo]

The Little Baroness was pulled into Foggy Silent Hill, in my opinion. Don't forget there are three layers of reality in Silent Hill:

1) Real Silent Hill

2) Foggy Silent Hill

3) Alternate Silent Hill (the Otherworld)

The assumption until Origins was that Alessa specifically created the Otherworld during the events SH1 to create a realm she could eradicate along with herself that Dahlia could not interfere with her in.

Why Alessa didn't just eradicate Foggy Silent Hill leads me to suspect that Foggy Silent Hill has always existed and is inexorably tied to Reality, which could suggest that its elimination could result in the eradication of Reality as well. Thus, Alessa needed a third layer to eradicate which would leave Foggy Silent Hill intact.

So, your argument about the nature of the Otherworld applies, in my mind, to Foggy Silent Hill instead.

[DamienPales]

The assumption until Origins was that Alessa specifically created the Otherworld during the events SH1 to create a realm she could eradicate along with herself that Dahlia could not interfere with her in.

Then why would The Order worship the Otherworld? They seemed to have knowledge of it even before Alessa was born. And then of course, there's the whole memo in Brookhaven in Silent Hill 2...

[Burning Man]

Heather isn't an inhuman being, she's a human girl with psychokinetic abilities that was revived by a deity she got impregnated with. Not normal, but not unhuman.

One question: Is Cheryl a human being? I know when Silent Hill was first released, quite a few of us questioned whether the baby was another Cheryl. That really hasn't been answered in further games, so your certainty doesn't sound convincing to me.

As opposed to your suggesting that Travis is quite literally some sort of demon, and his entire psychological complex is pretty much cruxed on the destruction of his family, which he's guilty over even though it's NOT HIS FAULT. Making him an actual demon and justifying Helen's delusions negates that.

We're talking about a series in which a normal human being such as Walter can turn into a "Devil" under the right circumstances. We're talking about a series where monsters can take human-like appearances and behavior. We're talking about a series where even humans can be transfigured into monsters.

Travis being referred to as a "devil's child" may not necessarily mean he is a demon, per se, but it does not negate the possibility that he is not a "normal" human being. It means that something happened that made Helen believe that Travis is a "devil's child."

And, your answer is that Helen is simply a lunatic.

I think you may reading too much into the psychological aspects of Silent Hill to the point where you're willing to ignore any spiritual aspects of it. Even if we assume that Travis is quite literally a demon in human form, that does not negate any psychological complexity that Travis portrays. Because as far as he's concerned, he is a human being much like the original Cheryl probably believed she was.

I'm pretty sure he learned either from her, or from his father going, "Son, we have to let mommy stay here for a while. Bitch be nuts, talking to mirror-men an' shit."

If Travis' father was going to be that forward to him, why lie to him later that Helen passed away?

I understand if you're willing to assume some aspects of the story to progress it, but assumptions are not always correct.

[AuraTwilight]

Why Alessa didn't just eradicate Foggy Silent Hill leads me to suspect that Foggy Silent Hill has always existed and is inexorably tied to Reality, which could suggest that its elimination could result in the eradication of Reality as well. Thus, Alessa needed a third layer to eradicate which would leave Foggy Silent Hill intact.

Or more simply, Dahlia could get to the Foggy World, so it wasn't safe enough.

Then why would The Order worship the Otherworld?

They don't.

One question: Is Cheryl a human being? I know when Silent Hill was first released, quite a few of us questioned whether the baby was another Cheryl. That really hasn't been answered in further games, so your certainty doesn't sound convincing to me.

Cheryl's about as human as Alessa was, so yea.

think you may reading too much into the psychological aspects of Silent Hill to the point where you're willing to ignore any spiritual aspects of it. Even if we assume that Travis is quite literally a demon in human form, that does not negate any psychological complexity that Travis portrays. Because as far as he's concerned, he is a human being much like the original Cheryl probably believed she was.

Yes, but his whole trial was pretty much to confront his past and pretty much accept that it wasn't his fault his mother went insane and his dad killed himself and etcetera etcetera. If it turns out he actually is responsible, then he's getting MORE insane and was actually totally right in the beginning of the story. That's bad narrative, and it's not what good storywriters do.

Yes, I do tend to avoid the spiritual aspects of the series, but that's because they never gave any more impression of reality to me than any other religion or spirituality would in a place like Silent Hill. If everything else is a manifestation of the psyche on a psychic hot spot, why should we assume that so and such deities are actually real and that this one religion happened to get it right, despite sitting on a place where delusions being made manifest is in the job description of the town's otherside(s)?

Ultimately Occam's Razor kicks in, and that's the path I take. Similarly, Occam's Razor leads us to a similar conclusion with Helen, especially since we have no reason to believe, and in fact reason not to believe, that demons and spectral entities can't just walk around in the real world in the way Travis would have to do. It doesn't mesh with the rest of the series mythology, no matter which theory (spiritual or psychological) you take.

[Burning Man]

Ultimately Occam's Razor kicks in, and that's the path I take.

Occam's Razor doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. Say it's your personal interpretation that you think makes most sense.

I consider it a fallacy in your argument when you say that Cheryl is human. Half-a-soul conjured in the form of a baby girl is hardly what anyone would consider human. She is closer to a "spectral entity" and, yes, she can and did walk the real world.

That's bad narrative, and it's not what good storywriters do.

It's better to give a reason for Helen's "insanity" rather than to simply say that she turned insane one day for no apparent reason at all. For what it's worth, Richard loved Helen and I'm pretty sure she wasn't insane from the start.

[Droo]

The Gradys lived in Silent Hill, though, right? Any proclivities to mental disorder Helen might have had could have been exacerbated by the town's influence.

The influences of the town got to all three of them if you ask me. There is a note in the theatre to the costume designer from a guy who claims to have dreamt about the Butcher and seen him at his motel. I always took it as inferred that Richard was the one who wrote that note, and that Richard owned the Riverside Motel. So, Helen goes crazy, Richard is dreaming about the Butcher, and Travis is ultimately pulled into the whole Alessa scenario.

Perhaps Helen was tapping into Foggy Silent Hill somehow, and seeing it in her mirrors, becoming aware that there was another plane of reality just below the surface of this one, and this ended up driving her crazy.

[AuraTwilight]

Occam's Razor doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. Say it's your personal interpretation that you think makes most sense.

"Should I assume there's two different types of Otherworld entities with little to no evidence, or should I assume they all belong to the same class of entity because they're all invariably affected by the human mind to some degree?"

I consider it a fallacy in your argument when you say that Cheryl is human. Half-a-soul conjured in the form of a baby girl is hardly what anyone would consider human. She is closer to a "spectral entity" and, yes, she can and did walk the real world.

She's half of a human, therefore human. If a pediatrician looked at Cheryl, he would report that she was a human.

Unlike Travis, in your hypothesis.

It's better to give a reason for Helen's "insanity" rather than to simply say that she turned insane one day for no apparent reason at all. For what it's worth, Richard loved Helen and I'm pretty sure she wasn't insane from the start.

Most people don't just start out insane, either. Maybe she became chemically imbalanced, or the stress of childbirth traumatized her, or something?

[Burning Man]

Occam's Razor doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. Say it's your personal interpretation that you think makes most sense.

"Should I assume there's two different types of Otherworld entities with little to no evidence, or should I assume they all belong to the same class of entity because they're all invariably affected by the human mind to some degree?"

That's what we're trying to find out here.

She's half of a human, therefore human. If a pediatrician looked at Cheryl, he would report that she was a human.

What other people see her as is irrelevant if the game actually tells us what her nature is. And, someone being "half a human," makes that person "half a human." It doesn't make that person a "human."

Unlike Travis, in your hypothesis.

"Devil's child" can be born from humans and it will share appearance and behavior as that of humans. It also fits with the "half a human" theme above. It won't be exactly the first time that such an idea was used in fictional works.

Most people don't just start out insane, either. Maybe she became chemically imbalanced, or the stress of childbirth traumatized her, or something?

You were talking about Occam's Razor before? Better start using it.

[Number 7]

As far as the question of whether Cheryl is human or half human, I think she was a fully human body with only half of a soul, half of the original personality of Alessa. I hate to do it, but I think I have to use the movie to make a comparison.

In the movie, Sharon is what is left of Alessa's goodness. In fact she's annoyingly innocent in the first act of the movie ("meow,meow"), because the good part of Alessa has become all of Sharon's personality. Then there's dark Alessa, which may or may not be the devil, but is also the hostile part of Alessa. When dark Alessa reenters Sharon at the end, I think Sharon essentially becomes Alessa because both parts of the soul, and therefore her personality or being, are reunited.

In the same way, I think Cheryl is half of Alessa manifested as a full person. I don't know if it's only the good half, and it's absurd to think that any person has exactly half good and half evil, but it is A half. This doesn't really answer the question of what Heather is, though. Heather certainly had a dark side.

[AuraTwilight]

What other people see her as is irrelevant if the game actually tells us what her nature is. And, someone being "half a human," makes that person "half a human." It doesn't make that person a "human."

No matter how much you divide up the fractions, you still have "human."

"Devil's child" can be born from humans and it will share appearance and behavior as that of humans. It also fits with the "half a human" theme above. It won't be exactly the first time that such an idea was used in fictional works.

Even still, we only have the word of a crazy dingus, and nothing else in the game even remotely hints that Travis is otherwise anything special like that. It would've come up.

You were talking about Occam's Razor before? Better start using it.

I was thinking aloud. Occam's Razor? Okay, bitch is crazy. Done.

In the same way, I think Cheryl is half of Alessa manifested as a full person. I don't know if it's only the good half, and it's absurd to think that any person has exactly half good and half evil, but it is A half. This doesn't really answer the question of what Heather is, though. Heather certainly had a dark side.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I'll address this. I don't believe the games ever said if Cheryl was a specific half of Alessa, that was a movie idea. She was just the other half. Though you can't really fault the movie too much, as Cheryl IS an innocent, untainted by what currently consumes Alessa, and indeed might represent some of the core parts of Alessa. It's my personal theory that the snow in the foggy world is a result of Cheryl's innocence.

As for Heather, she's the reincarnation of Alessa. Both soul fragments relinked, memories locked up, and dumped in a fresh body identical to the old one. Reboot the system, but have a saved game on file. Then Heather started haxxing herself with cheat codes she got off a psychic walkthrough and started remembering things.

[The Adversary]

>No matter how much you divide up the fractions, you still have "human."
So, a person 1/32 black is "black"?