Canon or no?

[DamienPales]

Then what is Cheryl doing running around Silent Hill, and out onto thin air no less?

Perhaps she is experiencing Silent Hill the same way Laura experiences it, as a normal town with no strange cave-ins everywhere?

I was always under the impression that Alessa is incapable of leaving the Otherworld, seeing as how she disappears when the Otherside School shifts back into normalcy.

[Droo]

Why would Cheryl be experiencing Silent Hill that way? Cheryl doesn't even distinctly exist anymore at this point.

[DamienPales]

Why would Cheryl be experiencing Silent Hill that way? Cheryl doesn't even distinctly exist anymore at this point.

Well, she doesn't technically "reunite" with Alessa until the very end of the game, if my memory serves me correctly. They have a mental link of some kind, but they're still separate entities until that point.

Though I'm not sure I remember exactly when Dahlia recaptured Cheryl. I was also under the impression that Dahlia captured Cheryl pretty early in the game, since Harry gets that "Daddy, help me" phonecall in the school. If Dahlia has Cheryl by that point, then the figure Cybil sees is Alessa...

[Number 7]

We don't see Cheryl after she appears on the screen saying, "Daddy help me" in the mall. And really, I suspect she was already rejoined with Alessa at that point. Otherworld works in mysterious ways like that. I think it was that part of her soul crying out for help.

I think the important thing is that Dahlia says that Harry has seen Cheryl several times returned to her former self, which is before the end of the game, so I think she had already rejoined with Alessa before the final boss fight.

Remember that Alessa still had a physical body, which we see sitting in a wheelchair wrapped in bandages. I think that when the spectral form, which is both halves of Alessa's soul, is rejoined with her physical form, then the glowing Mother of God appears to give birth to Incubus.

[DamienPales]

I think that when the spectral form, which is both halves of Alessa's soul, is rejoined with her physical form, then the glowing Mother of God appears to give birth to Incubus.

How can Cheryl/Alessa be spectral, though? She clearly has her own physical form. Harry wouldn't have been able to interact with his daughter if she was a spectre.

[Number 7]

How do you account for the physical form then? Does she have two of them? Her spectral form can still interact with the physical world. She can also disappear into thin air, like she does after killing the Lizard. The only other thing I can think of is that the physical Cheryl changed her appearance back to that of Alessa. Either way, Cheryl has already reverted back to being Alessa.

[DamienPales]

The only other thing I can think of is that the physical Cheryl changed her appearance back to that of Alessa.

I'm not sure I understand this. Since they're the same person, don't they have identical appearances?

I think the Alessa running around town in a school uniform is Cheryl, though she now appears to be 14 since she's under Alessa's influence. Alessa herself, the one who has taken over Silent Hill's Otherworld, is under lock and key under Dahlia.

[AuraTwilight]

Alessa's astral projection walked infront of the car. It crashes, the two souls unite so that we have the complete Alessa soul and the pregnant Alessa body. Perhaps since Cheryl's body is a manifestation, it became more ethereal once Alessa's soul was completed and self-aware? Either way, Harry's daughter does not exist as he remembers her anymore.

And Alessa can leave the Dark World fine, as the school scene shows. The Dark World is just safer for her.

[Nillin]

But we don't really know if she's outside the Otherworld in that scene. It seems to me that she disappears because the world is reverting back to some semblance of normalcy (AKA foggy).

I don't really know how I feel about the whole Otherside concept anyhow. There hasn't really been proof of the Otherside being anything other than another phase besides the whole, "Harry disappearing in the Other church" thing, but since the game turns very surreal at that point, we can't be sure if he's actually at the church, or if he's at the hospital. I personally think he was more of a specter at that point, and he simply went back into Alessa's nightmare.

No other game addresses it to my knowledge, either. I mean, Homecoming even features some "while u wer sleepin" shit, so obviously the body doesn't have to physically travel to a location for you to do shit there. If anything, the Otherside is more of a state of mind.

[AuraTwilight]

But we don't really know if she's outside the Otherworld in that scene. It seems to me that she disappears because the world is reverting back to some semblance of normalcy (AKA foggy).

The world returns to foggy, and Alessa is chillaxing, waiting for Harry to wake up. She takes a good look at him, then apparently vanishes under her own volition. If she was disappearing along with the Dark World, she wouldn't of been able to stick around. Hell, she wasn't there DURING the Dark World, so it makes no sense.

No other game addresses it to my knowledge, either. I mean, Homecoming even features some "while u wer sleepin" shit, so obviously the body doesn't have to physically travel to a location for you to do shit there. If anything, the Otherside is more of a state of mind.

Or maybe there's no worthwhile distinction. Just because Person A saw you sleeping doesn't mean Person B would. Time and Space are muddled.

[DrScares]

1 + 1 = 2? Fact

That's definitely an excellent thing, but 1 + 1 = 3 can sometimes be a very charming thing as well, no?

[AuraTwilight]

Not really, because 1 + 1 = 3 is fucking retarded.

[DrScares]

Not really, because 1 + 1 = 3 is fucking retarded.

Totally! Like if a man were to submerge hundreds and hundreds of feet underground only to emerge at the same elevation from which he entered, amirite?

[11x20]

Totally! Like if a man were to submerge hundreds and hundreds of feet underground only to emerge at the same elevation from which he entered, amirite?

Why would he want to do that? It's a bit costly but a plane ticket nets you the long scenic route and nasty peanuts.

[Asphyxia606]

I've read this whole argument. some people are just so difficult. It seems pretty obvious to me that Origins is canon. That's obviously what the developers were intending, despite some plot holes and inconsistencies. This was their first time with a Silent Hill game, and they were bound to make a few mistakes. It's part of the main series; it's canon.

[AuraTwilight]

The intentions of the developers don't really matter if they fuck up, though. See, for example, Highlander 2. Not to mention it doesn't really....bring anything to the table. It doesn't give any new information and doesn't contribute to the mythos in any meaningful way so why should it be counted?

[11x20]

Wow... it's been years since I was last here and I get a message in my inbox saying a thread was updated. But I'm going to say it's up to the player to decide what is and isn't canon in the divide between SH1-4 and 0rigins to ...whatever else they're coming up with now.

There is no official word from Konami that gives a clear cut, "This is all canon" but then again, they're not obligated to. As far as Konami is concerned, the whole thing is canon and running on the same continuity—even Arcade, sadly enough.

So it becomes up to the fans to decide what they want to believe is and isn't canon and sometimes, certain ideas become popular enough to be accepted throughout the fandom, such as the general consensus that Arcade or Play Novel aren't canon.

I think that what we should ask ourselves, in regards to what is and isn't canon, is:
• Do later games reference the events of _____?
• Do other characters take actions affected by _____?
• Can this game be dropped from the timeline entirely and not affect any character actions, motivations, or scenario/timeline development?

If you get "no" to the first two, it's a shrug and, "Maybe it's not canon," but if you can definitely say "no" to the last one, then it's safe to say, /until further notice/ it isn't canon.

Just my two cents and personal approach. SH1-4 were pretty tightly knit packages, and I think it helps that they had largely the same team of writers and consultants, with SH1 having the largest differences (I believe only Yamaoka was around for later writers/directors to refer to for mythos.) I'm lenient on 0rigins these days because Yamaoka did have a decent hand in it's development, but... I really don't think SH1-4 would be shot in the leg if we just pretended 0rigins never existed. In fact, four could even be erased entirely, being the "caboose" of the series. Nothing after four has ever really referenced it and SH2 only references it if you've played four and know the context.

I'm rambling now.

tl;dr:
Refer to any official timelines from Konami. If none have been released since... what was it, four? 0rigins? (I'm rusty at my SH lore, I apologize.) Then it's up to fans to decide.

[Asphyxia606]

I think it's better that we just assume the game is canon, guys. The game has some inconsistencies, but we're just gonna have to look past that. It's part of the main series. It's canon. Anyway, there's obviously going to be some rebuttal to this, so I'm done. I really don't care anymore.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm sure you've all heard this a million times, but there is clear evidence that the game is canon, evidence that everyone seems to shrug off as not reason enough, for some reason? I'm talking about Travis' cameo in Homecoming, when he gives Alex the ride. That alone seems evidence enough that Origins is canon. It's an obvious nod to the game.

For the record, I'm up to the sanitarium, and I honestly can't even find the motivation to play this game anymore. It's more of a chore than anything else. It's just boring and frustrating, especially with those damn Lying Figure ripoffs chasing me around town.

[11x20]

I forgot about Travis in Homecoming; well see, there you go. I'd say that's the answer. I don't think anyone really cares anymore about the "is it or isn't it" canon argument, to be honest. Hence this thread being nearly three years old. And oddly necroposted. (Though I'm not helping one bit.)

[AuraTwilight]

EDIT: Oh, and I'm sure you've all heard this a million times, but there is clear evidence that the game is canon, evidence that everyone seems to shrug off as not reason enough, for some reason? I'm talking about Travis' cameo in Homecoming, when he gives Alex the ride. That alone seems evidence enough that Origins is canon. It's an obvious nod to the game.

Yea, except Homecoming is just as problematic as Origins, and that guy is only Travis because they decided he was afterwards; that model was supposed to be some lumberjack or something.