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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Alessa is clearly seen awake in the introduction, so there's inherently a problem w/ your, AuraTwilight, and Arsonist's theory. The introduction, also, is as much a part of the game as the game itself considering it offers insight into the events leading up to the crash. By attempting to discredit the opening, you selectively choose what is and is not part of the story.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Arsonist wrote:
Never said one must be the other. Alessa clearly isn’t brain-dead, she’s dreaming and she’s able to breathe on her own.

So even though you don't believe Alessa is brain-dead, you mention it anyway. You also mention 'corpse', which Alessa clearly isn't. The only thing left is "coma patient" now, isn't it? And even that's up for debate at the moment.

In other words, your definition of "husk" is not helping you.

Quote:
Which would account for “astral projection”, she may not be consciously projecting herself there, she could just be living in the otherworld, while her body is chilling in the real world. It wouldn’t be the only time something like that happened in SH.

When else has something like that happened? Alessa's powers have been depicted as unique among various characters in Silent Hill.

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“Still alive, but with wounds that don’t heal” – In the intro, she seems perfectly healed, better then most burn victims… Do we rather take the intro as a reliable evidence, or the game itself?

Both. You are assuming that one is not reliable evidence and asking people to choose which one would be reliable. In that case, people would certainly say that in-game is reliable.

Your assumption is incorrect, nothing more.

Here, you didn't consider when Lisa's comment was made. Was it seven years ago when she was first brought into Alchemilla? Did it happen recently? Anytime in between? When exactly?

And, perhaps Alessa waking up in the scene means that she's reacquired her powers and her body healed. Again, not that difficult to comprehend.

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Not to mention Alessa’s house being located in the middle of fucking nowhere in the intro, but the ingame memo, clearly suggests they have had neighbors, who’s property was damaged by the fire.

The article never said how close the houses were: only that they were in the business district. You can't just assume that the houses must have been close to each other. I don't even think Climax intentionally disregarded that.

Anyway, if you want to disregard things from the intro, then you might as well disregard all of it. Unfortunately, a good portion of them plays in the game as well...

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Further more, in the final area, Alessa’s physical body is definitively crispy again, being inconsistent with the intro.

Let me repeat what I said before: she's in a fucking ceremonial robe, which covers her body. There is no "definitely crispy again."

Besides, you're comparing low-res model to a high-res one.

AuraTwilight wrote:
Astral projection is one's consciousness/soul/mind leaving the physical body.

Consciousness, soul, mind: they're three separate things, which is why they have different words for them. 'Can't just dump them all into one bucket because you think they're "the same thing."

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My theory is merely that Cheryl's arrival in town woke up Alessa.

How much time do you think passed before Cheryl was originally carried out of town, per se? Does this mean that Alessa was not in a coma until Harry and Jodie took her out? That could be a very long time.

You may be tempted to say that Alessa teleported Cheryl out of town from the start, but if you think about, that won't make sense either. Cheryl can only be taken out as far as Alessa's own powers can reach.

(Origins shows that it's a bright day out when Travis gets back to his truck. According to the SH1 intro, it's either sunrise or sunset when the Masons find Cheryl. Oh wait, intro is not "reliable". My bad.)

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Also, Arsonist <3 Beating me to the intro again.

Yeah, right. Then you shouldn't have said:

Quote:
I personally interpret that as Alessa waking up right as Harry and Cybil pull into town, then reuniting with Cheryl.

Cause it's obvious you meant to say that intro was unreliable and that Alessa waking up never happened.

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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2009
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You're also using evidence absent in the Japanese script.


Too bad the game is spoken in English. Every translation has its own screw-ups, and differences in wording, sometimes crucial differences. It sucks, but considering that the game is intended to be read and heard in English and seeing as how no other languages are spoken in the game, it is the English script that becomes canon.

And it still doesn't change the fact that the "Daddy" boss is located in a giant mechanical vagina, constantly pumped by pistons.

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You realize your quote says she's alive, right? You also misrepresented your quote by taking lines from 2 separate scenes and treating them as if they were from the same.


Same scene actually, I shortened it for easier view-ability.

"I get it now, why I'm still alive even though everyone else is dead. I'm not the only one who is still walking around. I'm the same as them, I just hadn't noticed it before."[emphasis added]

Clearly, she isn't saying it as a question, she says she gets why she's "still alive", that is to say, she realizes she's "the same as them", dead. She just hadn't noticed it before.

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None of them say "corpse," "coma," or "brain-dead."


What soul remains in that husk, is buried deep down in the subconscious.

If that doesn't make it clear she isn't conscious, I don't know what does.

Saying she's in and out of coma is frankly silly and unfounded. I'll rather take the said in-game quote as evidence, then thousands of guide-books written five years after the game, by some guys who weren't even in charge of writing the said game.

To make the matters worse, the guide book never says that Alessa is conscious, and the game clearly implies she isn't, I don't understand why are we even having this argument.

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Your point becomes more valid, by the way, by the amount of vulgarities you use. You and AuraTwilight should totally team up!


Was that really necessary? if you are honestly offended, then I'm honestly sorry but I really mean nothing by it[the cussing, I mean]. It's more of a way to put emphasis on things, if anything.

It's not like I make my points more valid by looking down on people, or getting out of my way to try and put them down. Cussing or not, I still try to be nice.

Still, if it bothers people I'll try to keep it to a minimum...

EDIT'd for BurningMan

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So even though you don't believe Alessa is brain-dead, you mention it anyway. You also mention 'corpse', which Alessa clearly isn't. The only thing left is "coma patient" now, isn't it? And even that's up for debate at the moment.

In other words, your definition of "husk" is not helping you.


It’s not my definition. You don’t call a responding person a husk, you just don’t. Husk is something that is considered empty, a shell. Saying they are calling her husk because she is a “husk of god” is really stretching it. And it doesn’t change the rest of the said line.

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When else has something like that happened? Alessa's powers have been depicted as unique among various characters in Silent Hill.


Correct me if I’m wrong, but there is a memo in SH2 about a guy, Joseph, or Joshua I think, who visited the otherworld, while his body was in the real world. The doctors labeled it as a delusion.

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Here, you didn't consider when Lisa's comment was made. Was it seven years ago when she was first brought into Alchemilla? Did it happen recently? Anytime in between? When exactly?


It was probably a recent entry, as it talks about her quitting.

"Asked the Doctor to let me quit being in charge of that patient. It's too weird. Still alive, but with wounds that won't heal."

Quote:
Let me repeat what I said before: she's in a fucking ceremonial robe, which covers her body. There is no "definitely crispy again."


Sorry, she looked burned to me, but that could be just my option.

Quote:
Cause it's obvious you meant to say that intro was unreliable and that Alessa waking up never happened.


Aura's idea still sounds mor reasonable to me, then the idea of Alessa slipping in and out of coma randomly. I could buy it.


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Historical Society Historian
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Quote:
Alessa is clearly seen awake in the introduction, so there's inherently a problem w/ your, AuraTwilight, and Arsonist's theory.


People can wake up from comas you know.

Quote:
Consciousness, soul, mind: they're three separate things, which is why they have different words for them. 'Can't just dump them all into one bucket because you think they're "the same thing."


I dumped them together so that someone doesn't give complaints along the lines of "It's not the soul that projects, it's the mind" and blah blah blah. Besides, the three are similar enough that any distinction in the discussion is academic.

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How much time do you think passed before Cheryl was originally carried out of town, per se? Does this mean that Alessa was not in a coma until Harry and Jodie took her out? That could be a very long time.


I always imagined that Cheryl materialized outside the city lines. Maybe near Brahams or something, it doesn't matter. Point is, I don't think that baby Cheryl was created within the town and then moved out of it.

Quote:
You may be tempted to say that Alessa teleported Cheryl out of town from the start, but if you think about, that won't make sense either. Cheryl can only be taken out as far as Alessa's own powers can reach.


And we don't know how far she can reach. Her reach can be as large as the plot wants them to be: Theoretically infinite.

Quote:
Cause it's obvious you meant to say that intro was unreliable and that Alessa waking up never happened.


I never said anything of the sort, nor did I imply it. Stop putting words in other peoples' mouths, it's a bad habit.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
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Missing since: 29 May 2006
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she is in ceremonial robes all right, low hi res textures pass, but still immolation she went through*cough*look Origins*cough* wouldn't let her look like a sweet teen anymore, as she looks in the intro.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Arsonist wrote:
Saying they are calling her husk because she is a “husk of god” is really stretching it.

How can you say it's "stretching it" when that is what Alessa is to the Order? Semantics can be argued I'm sure, like what "husk" really means, but I disagree that my interpretation is "stretching it." It's a fact that Alessa is a husk for the god, is it not?

Quote:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there is a memo in SH2 about a guy, Joseph, or Joshua I think, who visited the otherworld, while his body was in the real world. The doctors labeled it as a delusion.

Might have to check this again. I'm not sure I buy the idea that your body is in the real world while your consciousness is in the otherworld. That wouldn't explain all the other characters who visit the otherworld, unless we're supposed to believe they're standing around like a dummy.

Quote:
It was probably a recent entry, as it talks about her quitting.

That reasoning seems problematic simply because, in my opinion, it talks about Alessa's wounds not healing. I think that fact was something Lisa must have known much earlier than "recently."

I think the "Need Drug" is the tipoff that Kaufmann decided to keep her happy with his stash, so that Lisa could continue looking after Alessa.

My point is that while we can theorize that the diary must be recent, there's really no concrete evidence to suggest that.

AuraTwilight wrote:
And we don't know how far she can reach. Her reach can be as large as the plot wants them to be: Theoretically infinite.

I'm only bringing the issue up because you're saying that while Alessa's reach could be infinite, Cheryl must come within a certain range - within the town, at least - for Alessa to wake up. That would suggest that Alessa's reach is not "infinite." This seems a bit contradictory to me.

Quote:
I never said anything of the sort, nor did I imply it. Stop putting words in other peoples' mouths, it's a bad habit.

My intention was to show how you're contradicting yourself. If you're sending '<3' to Arsonist for his suggestion that the intro is unreliable - and when we're specifically talking about Alessa waking up no less - then, when you interpret a scene from the intro, it's like you're disagreeing with him... but, not really.

I didn't see a point in you interpreting a scene from the intro, when you seem to be agreeing with Arsonist that the intro is unreliable.

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Historical Society Historian
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I'm only bringing the issue up because you're saying that while Alessa's reach could be infinite, Cheryl must come within a certain range - within the town, at least - for Alessa to wake up. That would suggest that Alessa's reach is not "infinite." This seems a bit contradictory to me.


Before we get into a senseless debate about the extent of Alessa's power, there's something we almost overlooked: Unlike the era of Cheryl's return, when Cheryl is created and sent into the world, Alessa is NOT under a spell that's intensifying her pain so that she would cry out for her other self.

Quote:
My intention was to show how you're contradicting yourself. If you're sending '<3' to Arsonist for his suggestion that the intro is unreliable - and when we're specifically talking about Alessa waking up no less - then, when you interpret a scene from the intro, it's like you're disagreeing with him... but, not really.

I didn't see a point in you interpreting a scene from the intro, when you seem to be agreeing with Arsonist that the intro is unreliable.


I give people <3's for the presentation of their arguments, not necessarily my agreeing with them.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Before we get into a senseless debate about the extent of Alessa's power, there's something we almost overlooked: Unlike the era of Cheryl's return, when Cheryl is created and sent into the world, Alessa is NOT under a spell that's intensifying her pain so that she would cry out for her other self.

I fail to see the relevance there. Please explain.

Quote:
I give people <3's for the presentation of their arguments, not necessarily my agreeing with them.

Okay, so you disagree with him, then.

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Historical Society Historian
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Quote:
I fail to see the relevance there. Please explain.


The intent of the spell was to pretty much twist Alessa's arm into calling her "sister" back home and reunite with her. When Cheryl is first split off and placed wherever the Masons found them, Alessa wasn't yet made to be desperate for relief to her pain to the levels of seven years later.

Quote:
Okay, so you disagree with him, then.


Honestly? I'm still sort've on the fence with the intro. I see both sides of the argument and I'm not quite sure how literal to take things.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
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How can you say it's "stretching it" when that is what Alessa is to the Order? Semantics can be argued I'm sure, like what "husk" really means, but I disagree that my interpretation is "stretching it." It's a fact that Alessa is a husk for the god, is it not?


It starching because of the line that follows next –“is buried deep down in the subconscious”

Ignoring the full sentence won’t make it go away.

Yes, it is plausible that they think of her as a husk for the god, but in the context it seems unlikely. Also the doctors and Kaufmann don’t seem to be too eager to see god born. They don’t mention god once. Only the power they could draw from Alessa.

Quote:
Might have to check this again. I'm not sure I buy the idea that your body is in the real world while your consciousness is in the otherworld. That wouldn't explain all the other characters who visit the otherworld, unless we're supposed to believe they're standing around like a dummy.


I re-checked it, the doctor seems to be healing the patient from the “other side”. While it can be interpreted that the patient once was physically in the otherworld, and was sent to the asylum once he was out, one particular line, suggest the patient still visits the otherside “Furthermore he is happy there.” – no “was”, it’s “is”. And while it is IMO, logical to assume that the doctors would notice their patient disappearing and reappearing, so he must visit the otherworld only mentally, there really is no line to specifically say “catatonia” or “coma” or anything of the sort.

Still, what about the Sullivan victims?


*sigh* Ya know what, I don’t have the energy and stamina for this anymore. We’re running in circles. I’m out of here.

I still don’t see how your “evidence” proves anything, when the game states the opposite three times. You’re just ignoring the in-game quotes or playing with semantics, and pointing out what LM *doesn’t* say.

This is silly, repetitive, annoying and pointless. But yeah, I quit. I don’t want to get too angry or to continue repeating the same thing over and over again.

Our evidence:

-Lisa’s speech – Your response – She wasn’t like that ALL the time*

-Lisa’s cluelessness – Your response – She wrote it long time a go*

-The doctor’s speech – Your response – She’s the husk of god. Also it wasn’t buried ALL the time*

-Dahlia’s speech – Your response – It’s a metaphor*

Your evidence:

-The into scene – Our response – That could have happened as Harry and Cheryl were entering the town*

-The suplimentary material doesn’t say Alessa is in comma – Our response – The said material never refers to Alessa’s state of conscious at all, it doesn’t say she isn’t in coma either, further more, lack of evidence is not evidence

*What do all of these things have in common? All of these theories are just that, theories. None of our “rebuffs” of the evidence we suggested to one another have any concrete proof behind them.

See my point? All this arguing is pointless and going nowhere.

And so, I’m out.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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You're blatantly ignoring the evidence we've offered b/c you don't like how it refutes your asseveration. We are not playing the ad ignorantium card by any means—you just have a habit of overlooking information.

By the way: Even in the English script, Silent Hill 2 doesn't peremptorily indicate Angela was raped, nor do either guidebook released afterward. You'd think at least one of them would mention her sexual abuse.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
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MMY wrote:
You'd think at least one of them would mention her sexual abuse.



Unless of course they felt that it was self evident and that anyone who had played the game would have come to that conclusion themselves.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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I'm not sure about this, but I think, I think the fact Heather is the baby given to Harry at the end of Silent Hill is pretty obvious, yet readers are inundated by comments reaffirming the asseveration in Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicles.

. . . I think.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Arsonist wrote:
They don’t mention god once. Only the power they could draw from Alessa.

Of course. They don't call it "the god" but instead call it "the seed."

Quote:
And while it is IMO, logical to assume that the doctors would notice their patient disappearing and reappearing, so he must visit the otherworld only mentally, there really is no line to specifically say “catatonia” or “coma” or anything of the sort.

In other words, we can't say that such an event happened with that patient.

Quote:
Still, what about the Sullivan victims?

The fact that the numbers scars is found on the victims' bodies in the real world suggests that the body is not left around in the real world, while the consciousness explores the otherworld.

Quote:
*sigh* Ya know what, I don’t have the energy and stamina for this anymore. We’re running in circles. I’m out of here.

I think it's your debate with MMY that's tiring you out. I'm using the same game evidence as you are, but only interpreting them differently. I don't believe I'm being far-fetched and none of which I believe I have "stretched." What I found unreasonable was the simple notion to dismiss the intro because certain people believed it was "unreliable."

That's basically throwing something away because you don't find it suitable. On the other hand, I'm using all of your so-called "evidence."

I'm not going to say something like "Lost Memories doesn't say so." I do, occasionally, quote the book for information, but stating a lack of information was never my thing.

Quote:
I still don’t see how your “evidence” proves anything, when the game states the opposite three times. You’re just ignoring the in-game quotes or playing with semantics, and pointing out what LM *doesn’t* say.

It's kind of mutual. I don't see your "evidence" proving anything either, and I have, to the best of my abilities, provided a reasonable alternate explanation in place of yours. What you've told me is a collection of your interpretation from having played the game, and I could agree that they are reasonable. But it doesn't "prove" much. Not by a far shot.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Burning Man wrote:
The fact that the numbers scars is found on the victims' bodies in the real world suggests that the body is not left around in the real world, while the consciousness explores the otherworld.


I'm just wondering right now why people try to equal Walter's kingdom and the otherworlds in silent hill. I always figured they were two completely different things regarding their creation and characteristics. Even if the victims' bodys would have stayed in the real world(which is possible, while i think people in silent hill do travel with their bodies - james, harry, cybil, angela, eddie...), that doesn't mean anything regarding the otherworld in silent hill, does it?

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Historical Society Historian
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Quote:
The fact that the numbers scars is found on the victims' bodies in the real world suggests that the body is not left around in the real world, while the consciousness explores the otherworld.


I thought it was pretty clear that the people in Silent Hill 4 were experiencing a Freddy Krueger sort of deal, what with Eileen being able to wander around while in the hospital and crap.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
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In other words, we can't say that such an event happened with that patient.


Right, I was confused and I thought catatonia was mentioned before I re-read it. Must have confused him with Helen Grady, who was quite possibly, simply insane.

Still, the fact that the doctor is taking in a present tense signifies that the patient is still experiencing the otherworld, and considering that from what we can tell, Brokhaven only treats patients that are currently hospitalized, we can assume that he's experiencing the otherworld while hospitalized, and logically, doctors and nurses would notice if their mentally deranged patient was suddenly gone...

But even still, that's too much assuming for my taste... Even if it is my theory.

Quote:
The fact that the numbers scars is found on the victims' bodies in the real world suggests that the body is not left around in the real world, while the consciousness explores the otherworld.


What Aura said. Eileen was clearly in the Hospital in the real world, and Cynthia's disappearing act could be interpreted as her waking up in the real world, probably dues to throwing up, and then passing out again in the subway train. Also, I think we see Richard napping in the real world, after we see him in the otherworld/Walter's world.

Quote:
I think it's your debate with MMY that's tiring you out. I'm using the same game evidence as you are, but only interpreting them differently. I don't believe I'm being far-fetched and none of which I believe I have "stretched."


You're right, I shouldn't have said that you were "stretching it" I was tired. Your reasoning is logical and plausible. It's not as much as stretching to assume that she woke up days, weeks, months or years after the burning then it is to assume she woke up as Harry and Cheryl arrived.

Both plausible, but both unconfirmed, One thing is for sure though, Alessa was in a coma, we just don't know for how long.

The truth is, I never assumed she had been awake before Harry and Cheryl arrived until MMY mentioned it, I just figured she was in a coma all the time. Still, now I am aware of the other possibility.

Quote:
What I found unreasonable was the simple notion to dismiss the intro because certain people believed it was "unreliable."


I made a mistake, I understand that now. But it still doesn't change the fact that the intro scene has the alternative possibility then to have Alessa up and awake for seven years. As Aura points out, she could be waking up as Harry and Cheryl arrive for the first time after seven years, simply due to Cheryl's proximity to her.

While you can argue that that is an assumption, the truth is, that the idea of Alessa being awake and aware for a long time is also an assumption.

Your only evidence for that idea is that scene in the intro, one which can also have a alternative interpretation, much like the in-game quotes we used to support our idea.

Also, I wasn't dismissing it because it disagreed with my theory, but because it disagreed with what was presented in the game. I'm stupid and lack the ability to think outside the box. I just found it strange that Alessa had eyebrows, when Lisa stated that her wounds do not heal as well as that her skin was all charred. The idea that Alessa did heal later on seemed strange somehow, almost contradicting, especially considering that Dahlia used a spell that was there to amplify Alessa's pain. I figured the spell was what was preventing Alessa from healing naturally.

Quote:
I'm not going to say something like "Lost Memories doesn't say so."


And I respect you for it. Since, no offense to anyone, that kind of reasoning is flawed and leads to no conclusion or compromise. If we focused on what LM doesn't say instead on what it does, there would be a shitload of crappy nonsense theories, cause' hey, LM doesn't say it didn't happen.


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Historical Society Historian
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Quote:
I figured the spell was what was preventing Alessa from healing naturally.


It could also be the god fetus. Or maybe Alessa is just so damn powerful that she pulls an Alma Wade. :P

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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did anyone notice that lisa seems to be hiding from you in the theater(shine your flashlight on he left side seats and you will no see her)

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cedar grove wrote:
did anyone notice that lisa seems to be hiding from you in the theater(shine your flashlight on he left side seats and you will no see her)


Yes, I think she was there to watch Travis.
... or Climax were just too lazy to stick her into the background programming. =p


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