Lisa Garland: Nothing To See Here (Unmarked Spoilers Within)
Moderator: Moderators
- The Adversary
- RESPECT
- Posts: 20095
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003
- Location: #lfk
- Contact:
Alessa is clearly seen awake in the introduction, so there's inherently a problem w/ your, AuraTwilight, and Arsonist's theory. The introduction, also, is as much a part of the game as the game itself considering it offers insight into the events leading up to the crash. By attempting to discredit the opening, you selectively choose what is and is not part of the story.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
-
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 2481
- Joined: 15 Jul 2003
So even though you don't believe Alessa is brain-dead, you mention it anyway. You also mention 'corpse', which Alessa clearly isn't. The only thing left is "coma patient" now, isn't it? And even that's up for debate at the moment.Arsonist wrote:Never said one must be the other. Alessa clearly isn’t brain-dead, she’s dreaming and she’s able to breathe on her own.
In other words, your definition of "husk" is not helping you.
When else has something like that happened? Alessa's powers have been depicted as unique among various characters in Silent Hill.Which would account for “astral projectionâ€, she may not be consciously projecting herself there, she could just be living in the otherworld, while her body is chilling in the real world. It wouldn’t be the only time something like that happened in SH.
Both. You are assuming that one is not reliable evidence and asking people to choose which one would be reliable. In that case, people would certainly say that in-game is reliable.“Still alive, but with wounds that don’t heal†– In the intro, she seems perfectly healed, better then most burn victims… Do we rather take the intro as a reliable evidence, or the game itself?
Your assumption is incorrect, nothing more.
Here, you didn't consider when Lisa's comment was made. Was it seven years ago when she was first brought into Alchemilla? Did it happen recently? Anytime in between? When exactly?
And, perhaps Alessa waking up in the scene means that she's reacquired her powers and her body healed. Again, not that difficult to comprehend.
The article never said how close the houses were: only that they were in the business district. You can't just assume that the houses must have been close to each other. I don't even think Climax intentionally disregarded that.Not to mention Alessa’s house being located in the middle of fucking nowhere in the intro, but the ingame memo, clearly suggests they have had neighbors, who’s property was damaged by the fire.
Anyway, if you want to disregard things from the intro, then you might as well disregard all of it. Unfortunately, a good portion of them plays in the game as well...
Let me repeat what I said before: she's in a fucking ceremonial robe, which covers her body. There is no "definitely crispy again."Further more, in the final area, Alessa’s physical body is definitively crispy again, being inconsistent with the intro.
Besides, you're comparing low-res model to a high-res one.
Consciousness, soul, mind: they're three separate things, which is why they have different words for them. 'Can't just dump them all into one bucket because you think they're "the same thing."AuraTwilight wrote:Astral projection is one's consciousness/soul/mind leaving the physical body.
How much time do you think passed before Cheryl was originally carried out of town, per se? Does this mean that Alessa was not in a coma until Harry and Jodie took her out? That could be a very long time.My theory is merely that Cheryl's arrival in town woke up Alessa.
You may be tempted to say that Alessa teleported Cheryl out of town from the start, but if you think about, that won't make sense either. Cheryl can only be taken out as far as Alessa's own powers can reach.
(Origins shows that it's a bright day out when Travis gets back to his truck. According to the SH1 intro, it's either sunrise or sunset when the Masons find Cheryl. Oh wait, intro is not "reliable". My bad.)
Yeah, right. Then you shouldn't have said:Also, Arsonist <3 Beating me to the intro again.
Cause it's obvious you meant to say that intro was unreliable and that Alessa waking up never happened.I personally interpret that as Alessa waking up right as Harry and Cybil pull into town, then reuniting with Cheryl.
© 2003-2022 Burning Man.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.
Too bad the game is spoken in English. Every translation has its own screw-ups, and differences in wording, sometimes crucial differences. It sucks, but considering that the game is intended to be read and heard in English and seeing as how no other languages are spoken in the game, it is the English script that becomes canon.You're also using evidence absent in the Japanese script.
And it still doesn't change the fact that the "Daddy" boss is located in a giant mechanical vagina, constantly pumped by pistons.
Same scene actually, I shortened it for easier view-ability.You realize your quote says she's alive, right? You also misrepresented your quote by taking lines from 2 separate scenes and treating them as if they were from the same.
"I get it now, why I'm still alive even though everyone else is dead. I'm not the only one who is still walking around. I'm the same as them, I just hadn't noticed it before."[emphasis added]
Clearly, she isn't saying it as a question, she says she gets why she's "still alive", that is to say, she realizes she's "the same as them", dead. She just hadn't noticed it before.
What soul remains in that husk, is buried deep down in the subconscious.None of them say "corpse," "coma," or "brain-dead."
If that doesn't make it clear she isn't conscious, I don't know what does.
Saying she's in and out of coma is frankly silly and unfounded. I'll rather take the said in-game quote as evidence, then thousands of guide-books written five years after the game, by some guys who weren't even in charge of writing the said game.
To make the matters worse, the guide book never says that Alessa is conscious, and the game clearly implies she isn't, I don't understand why are we even having this argument.
Was that really necessary? if you are honestly offended, then I'm honestly sorry but I really mean nothing by it[the cussing, I mean]. It's more of a way to put emphasis on things, if anything.Your point becomes more valid, by the way, by the amount of vulgarities you use. You and AuraTwilight should totally team up!
It's not like I make my points more valid by looking down on people, or getting out of my way to try and put them down. Cussing or not, I still try to be nice.
Still, if it bothers people I'll try to keep it to a minimum...
EDIT'd for BurningMan
It’s not my definition. You don’t call a responding person a husk, you just don’t. Husk is something that is considered empty, a shell. Saying they are calling her husk because she is a “husk of god†is really stretching it. And it doesn’t change the rest of the said line.So even though you don't believe Alessa is brain-dead, you mention it anyway. You also mention 'corpse', which Alessa clearly isn't. The only thing left is "coma patient" now, isn't it? And even that's up for debate at the moment.
In other words, your definition of "husk" is not helping you.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there is a memo in SH2 about a guy, Joseph, or Joshua I think, who visited the otherworld, while his body was in the real world. The doctors labeled it as a delusion.When else has something like that happened? Alessa's powers have been depicted as unique among various characters in Silent Hill.
It was probably a recent entry, as it talks about her quitting.Here, you didn't consider when Lisa's comment was made. Was it seven years ago when she was first brought into Alchemilla? Did it happen recently? Anytime in between? When exactly?
"Asked the Doctor to let me quit being in charge of that patient. It's too weird. Still alive, but with wounds that won't heal."
Sorry, she looked burned to me, but that could be just my option.Let me repeat what I said before: she's in a fucking ceremonial robe, which covers her body. There is no "definitely crispy again."
Aura's idea still sounds mor reasonable to me, then the idea of Alessa slipping in and out of coma randomly. I could buy it.Cause it's obvious you meant to say that intro was unreliable and that Alessa waking up never happened.
- AuraTwilight
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 11390
- Joined: 01 Aug 2006
- Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
- Contact:
People can wake up from comas you know.Alessa is clearly seen awake in the introduction, so there's inherently a problem w/ your, AuraTwilight, and Arsonist's theory.
I dumped them together so that someone doesn't give complaints along the lines of "It's not the soul that projects, it's the mind" and blah blah blah. Besides, the three are similar enough that any distinction in the discussion is academic.Consciousness, soul, mind: they're three separate things, which is why they have different words for them. 'Can't just dump them all into one bucket because you think they're "the same thing."
I always imagined that Cheryl materialized outside the city lines. Maybe near Brahams or something, it doesn't matter. Point is, I don't think that baby Cheryl was created within the town and then moved out of it.How much time do you think passed before Cheryl was originally carried out of town, per se? Does this mean that Alessa was not in a coma until Harry and Jodie took her out? That could be a very long time.
And we don't know how far she can reach. Her reach can be as large as the plot wants them to be: Theoretically infinite.You may be tempted to say that Alessa teleported Cheryl out of town from the start, but if you think about, that won't make sense either. Cheryl can only be taken out as far as Alessa's own powers can reach.
I never said anything of the sort, nor did I imply it. Stop putting words in other peoples' mouths, it's a bad habit.Cause it's obvious you meant to say that intro was unreliable and that Alessa waking up never happened.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
-
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 2481
- Joined: 15 Jul 2003
How can you say it's "stretching it" when that is what Alessa is to the Order? Semantics can be argued I'm sure, like what "husk" really means, but I disagree that my interpretation is "stretching it." It's a fact that Alessa is a husk for the god, is it not?Arsonist wrote:Saying they are calling her husk because she is a “husk of god†is really stretching it.
Might have to check this again. I'm not sure I buy the idea that your body is in the real world while your consciousness is in the otherworld. That wouldn't explain all the other characters who visit the otherworld, unless we're supposed to believe they're standing around like a dummy.Correct me if I’m wrong, but there is a memo in SH2 about a guy, Joseph, or Joshua I think, who visited the otherworld, while his body was in the real world. The doctors labeled it as a delusion.
That reasoning seems problematic simply because, in my opinion, it talks about Alessa's wounds not healing. I think that fact was something Lisa must have known much earlier than "recently."It was probably a recent entry, as it talks about her quitting.
I think the "Need Drug" is the tipoff that Kaufmann decided to keep her happy with his stash, so that Lisa could continue looking after Alessa.
My point is that while we can theorize that the diary must be recent, there's really no concrete evidence to suggest that.
I'm only bringing the issue up because you're saying that while Alessa's reach could be infinite, Cheryl must come within a certain range - within the town, at least - for Alessa to wake up. That would suggest that Alessa's reach is not "infinite." This seems a bit contradictory to me.AuraTwilight wrote:And we don't know how far she can reach. Her reach can be as large as the plot wants them to be: Theoretically infinite.
My intention was to show how you're contradicting yourself. If you're sending '<3' to Arsonist for his suggestion that the intro is unreliable - and when we're specifically talking about Alessa waking up no less - then, when you interpret a scene from the intro, it's like you're disagreeing with him... but, not really.I never said anything of the sort, nor did I imply it. Stop putting words in other peoples' mouths, it's a bad habit.
I didn't see a point in you interpreting a scene from the intro, when you seem to be agreeing with Arsonist that the intro is unreliable.
© 2003-2022 Burning Man.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.
- AuraTwilight
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 11390
- Joined: 01 Aug 2006
- Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
- Contact:
Before we get into a senseless debate about the extent of Alessa's power, there's something we almost overlooked: Unlike the era of Cheryl's return, when Cheryl is created and sent into the world, Alessa is NOT under a spell that's intensifying her pain so that she would cry out for her other self.I'm only bringing the issue up because you're saying that while Alessa's reach could be infinite, Cheryl must come within a certain range - within the town, at least - for Alessa to wake up. That would suggest that Alessa's reach is not "infinite." This seems a bit contradictory to me.
I give people <3's for the presentation of their arguments, not necessarily my agreeing with them.My intention was to show how you're contradicting yourself. If you're sending '<3' to Arsonist for his suggestion that the intro is unreliable - and when we're specifically talking about Alessa waking up no less - then, when you interpret a scene from the intro, it's like you're disagreeing with him... but, not really.
I didn't see a point in you interpreting a scene from the intro, when you seem to be agreeing with Arsonist that the intro is unreliable.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
-
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 2481
- Joined: 15 Jul 2003
I fail to see the relevance there. Please explain.AuraTwilight wrote:Before we get into a senseless debate about the extent of Alessa's power, there's something we almost overlooked: Unlike the era of Cheryl's return, when Cheryl is created and sent into the world, Alessa is NOT under a spell that's intensifying her pain so that she would cry out for her other self.
Okay, so you disagree with him, then.I give people <3's for the presentation of their arguments, not necessarily my agreeing with them.
© 2003-2022 Burning Man.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.
- AuraTwilight
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 11390
- Joined: 01 Aug 2006
- Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
- Contact:
The intent of the spell was to pretty much twist Alessa's arm into calling her "sister" back home and reunite with her. When Cheryl is first split off and placed wherever the Masons found them, Alessa wasn't yet made to be desperate for relief to her pain to the levels of seven years later.I fail to see the relevance there. Please explain.
Honestly? I'm still sort've on the fence with the intro. I see both sides of the argument and I'm not quite sure how literal to take things.Okay, so you disagree with him, then.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
It starching because of the line that follows next –“is buried deep down in the subconsciousâ€How can you say it's "stretching it" when that is what Alessa is to the Order? Semantics can be argued I'm sure, like what "husk" really means, but I disagree that my interpretation is "stretching it." It's a fact that Alessa is a husk for the god, is it not?
Ignoring the full sentence won’t make it go away.
Yes, it is plausible that they think of her as a husk for the god, but in the context it seems unlikely. Also the doctors and Kaufmann don’t seem to be too eager to see god born. They don’t mention god once. Only the power they could draw from Alessa.
I re-checked it, the doctor seems to be healing the patient from the “other sideâ€. While it can be interpreted that the patient once was physically in the otherworld, and was sent to the asylum once he was out, one particular line, suggest the patient still visits the otherside “Furthermore he is happy there.†– no “wasâ€, it’s “isâ€. And while it is IMO, logical to assume that the doctors would notice their patient disappearing and reappearing, so he must visit the otherworld only mentally, there really is no line to specifically say “catatonia†or “coma†or anything of the sort.Might have to check this again. I'm not sure I buy the idea that your body is in the real world while your consciousness is in the otherworld. That wouldn't explain all the other characters who visit the otherworld, unless we're supposed to believe they're standing around like a dummy.
Still, what about the Sullivan victims?
*sigh* Ya know what, I don’t have the energy and stamina for this anymore. We’re running in circles. I’m out of here.
I still don’t see how your “evidence†proves anything, when the game states the opposite three times. You’re just ignoring the in-game quotes or playing with semantics, and pointing out what LM *doesn’t* say.
This is silly, repetitive, annoying and pointless. But yeah, I quit. I don’t want to get too angry or to continue repeating the same thing over and over again.
Our evidence:
-Lisa’s speech – Your response – She wasn’t like that ALL the time*
-Lisa’s cluelessness – Your response – She wrote it long time a go*
-The doctor’s speech – Your response – She’s the husk of god. Also it wasn’t buried ALL the time*
-Dahlia’s speech – Your response – It’s a metaphor*
Your evidence:
-The into scene – Our response – That could have happened as Harry and Cheryl were entering the town*
-The suplimentary material doesn’t say Alessa is in comma – Our response – The said material never refers to Alessa’s state of conscious at all, it doesn’t say she isn’t in coma either, further more, lack of evidence is not evidence
*What do all of these things have in common? All of these theories are just that, theories. None of our “rebuffs†of the evidence we suggested to one another have any concrete proof behind them.
See my point? All this arguing is pointless and going nowhere.
And so, I’m out.
- The Adversary
- RESPECT
- Posts: 20095
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003
- Location: #lfk
- Contact:
You're blatantly ignoring the evidence we've offered b/c you don't like how it refutes your asseveration. We are not playing the ad ignorantium card by any means—you just have a habit of overlooking information.
By the way: Even in the English script, Silent Hill 2 doesn't peremptorily indicate Angela was raped, nor do either guidebook released afterward. You'd think at least one of them would mention her sexual abuse.
By the way: Even in the English script, Silent Hill 2 doesn't peremptorily indicate Angela was raped, nor do either guidebook released afterward. You'd think at least one of them would mention her sexual abuse.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
- stopped_clock
- Woodside Apartments Janitor
- Posts: 1081
- Joined: 30 Mar 2009
- Location: North of The Wall
MMY wrote: You'd think at least one of them would mention her sexual abuse.
Unless of course they felt that it was self evident and that anyone who had played the game would have come to that conclusion themselves.
Too cold to start a fire
I'm burning diesel, burning dinosaur bones
I'll take the river down to still water
And ride a pack of dogs
I'm burning diesel, burning dinosaur bones
I'll take the river down to still water
And ride a pack of dogs
- The Adversary
- RESPECT
- Posts: 20095
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003
- Location: #lfk
- Contact:
I'm not sure about this, but I think, I think the fact Heather is the baby given to Harry at the end of Silent Hill is pretty obvious, yet readers are inundated by comments reaffirming the asseveration in Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicles.
. . . I think.
. . . I think.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
-
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 2481
- Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Of course. They don't call it "the god" but instead call it "the seed."Arsonist wrote:They don’t mention god once. Only the power they could draw from Alessa.
In other words, we can't say that such an event happened with that patient.And while it is IMO, logical to assume that the doctors would notice their patient disappearing and reappearing, so he must visit the otherworld only mentally, there really is no line to specifically say “catatonia†or “coma†or anything of the sort.
The fact that the numbers scars is found on the victims' bodies in the real world suggests that the body is not left around in the real world, while the consciousness explores the otherworld.Still, what about the Sullivan victims?
I think it's your debate with MMY that's tiring you out. I'm using the same game evidence as you are, but only interpreting them differently. I don't believe I'm being far-fetched and none of which I believe I have "stretched." What I found unreasonable was the simple notion to dismiss the intro because certain people believed it was "unreliable."*sigh* Ya know what, I don’t have the energy and stamina for this anymore. We’re running in circles. I’m out of here.
That's basically throwing something away because you don't find it suitable. On the other hand, I'm using all of your so-called "evidence."
I'm not going to say something like "Lost Memories doesn't say so." I do, occasionally, quote the book for information, but stating a lack of information was never my thing.
It's kind of mutual. I don't see your "evidence" proving anything either, and I have, to the best of my abilities, provided a reasonable alternate explanation in place of yours. What you've told me is a collection of your interpretation from having played the game, and I could agree that they are reasonable. But it doesn't "prove" much. Not by a far shot.I still don’t see how your “evidence†proves anything, when the game states the opposite three times. You’re just ignoring the in-game quotes or playing with semantics, and pointing out what LM *doesn’t* say.
© 2003-2022 Burning Man.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.
I'm just wondering right now why people try to equal Walter's kingdom and the otherworlds in silent hill. I always figured they were two completely different things regarding their creation and characteristics. Even if the victims' bodys would have stayed in the real world(which is possible, while i think people in silent hill do travel with their bodies - james, harry, cybil, angela, eddie...), that doesn't mean anything regarding the otherworld in silent hill, does it?Burning Man wrote:The fact that the numbers scars is found on the victims' bodies in the real world suggests that the body is not left around in the real world, while the consciousness explores the otherworld.
there's comfort in silence
- AuraTwilight
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 11390
- Joined: 01 Aug 2006
- Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
- Contact:
I thought it was pretty clear that the people in Silent Hill 4 were experiencing a Freddy Krueger sort of deal, what with Eileen being able to wander around while in the hospital and crap.The fact that the numbers scars is found on the victims' bodies in the real world suggests that the body is not left around in the real world, while the consciousness explores the otherworld.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Right, I was confused and I thought catatonia was mentioned before I re-read it. Must have confused him with Helen Grady, who was quite possibly, simply insane.In other words, we can't say that such an event happened with that patient.
Still, the fact that the doctor is taking in a present tense signifies that the patient is still experiencing the otherworld, and considering that from what we can tell, Brokhaven only treats patients that are currently hospitalized, we can assume that he's experiencing the otherworld while hospitalized, and logically, doctors and nurses would notice if their mentally deranged patient was suddenly gone...
But even still, that's too much assuming for my taste... Even if it is my theory.
What Aura said. Eileen was clearly in the Hospital in the real world, and Cynthia's disappearing act could be interpreted as her waking up in the real world, probably dues to throwing up, and then passing out again in the subway train. Also, I think we see Richard napping in the real world, after we see him in the otherworld/Walter's world.The fact that the numbers scars is found on the victims' bodies in the real world suggests that the body is not left around in the real world, while the consciousness explores the otherworld.
You're right, I shouldn't have said that you were "stretching it" I was tired. Your reasoning is logical and plausible. It's not as much as stretching to assume that she woke up days, weeks, months or years after the burning then it is to assume she woke up as Harry and Cheryl arrived.I think it's your debate with MMY that's tiring you out. I'm using the same game evidence as you are, but only interpreting them differently. I don't believe I'm being far-fetched and none of which I believe I have "stretched."
Both plausible, but both unconfirmed, One thing is for sure though, Alessa was in a coma, we just don't know for how long.
The truth is, I never assumed she had been awake before Harry and Cheryl arrived until MMY mentioned it, I just figured she was in a coma all the time. Still, now I am aware of the other possibility.
I made a mistake, I understand that now. But it still doesn't change the fact that the intro scene has the alternative possibility then to have Alessa up and awake for seven years. As Aura points out, she could be waking up as Harry and Cheryl arrive for the first time after seven years, simply due to Cheryl's proximity to her.What I found unreasonable was the simple notion to dismiss the intro because certain people believed it was "unreliable."
While you can argue that that is an assumption, the truth is, that the idea of Alessa being awake and aware for a long time is also an assumption.
Your only evidence for that idea is that scene in the intro, one which can also have a alternative interpretation, much like the in-game quotes we used to support our idea.
Also, I wasn't dismissing it because it disagreed with my theory, but because it disagreed with what was presented in the game. I'm stupid and lack the ability to think outside the box. I just found it strange that Alessa had eyebrows, when Lisa stated that her wounds do not heal as well as that her skin was all charred. The idea that Alessa did heal later on seemed strange somehow, almost contradicting, especially considering that Dahlia used a spell that was there to amplify Alessa's pain. I figured the spell was what was preventing Alessa from healing naturally.
And I respect you for it. Since, no offense to anyone, that kind of reasoning is flawed and leads to no conclusion or compromise. If we focused on what LM doesn't say instead on what it does, there would be a shitload of crappy nonsense theories, cause' hey, LM doesn't say it didn't happen.I'm not going to say something like "Lost Memories doesn't say so."
- AuraTwilight
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 11390
- Joined: 01 Aug 2006
- Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
- Contact:
- cedar grove
- Just Passing Through
- Posts: 95
- Joined: 31 May 2009
- Location: bottom of toluca lake