Silent Hill Heaven
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Lisa Garland: Nothing To See Here (Unmarked Spoilers Within)
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Author:  The Adversary [ 19 May 2009 ]
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>And the doctor who called her a "husk".
The "husk" refers to Alessa lacking half of her soul.

Author:  Arsonist [ 19 May 2009 ]
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"What soul remains captured in this husk is buried deep down in the subconscious"

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Besides, husk is basically shell. You don't call a thinking, feeling, responding person a husk/shell. Half-a-soul or not. A corpse, a coma patient or a brain-dead person is a husk, not someone who's writing a fucking diary.

Author:  Droo [ 20 May 2009 ]
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Arsonist wrote:
"What soul remains captured in this husk is buried deep down in the subconscious"

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Besides, husk is basically shell. You don't call a thinking, feeling, responding person a husk/shell. Half-a-soul or not. A corpse, a coma patient or a brain-dead person is a husk, not someone who's writing a fucking diary.


Quoted for massive almost intimidating truth.

Author:  Burning Man [ 20 May 2009 ]
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Arsonist wrote:
You don't call a thinking, feeling, responding person a husk/shell. Half-a-soul or not. A corpse, a coma patient or a brain-dead person is a husk, not someone who's writing a fucking diary.


To the Order, Alessa's body is simply a husk for the god. This is not that hard to understand.

Author:  AuraTwilight [ 20 May 2009 ]
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I think you guys are just reaching here. There's several comments and quotes that make it pretty damn clear Alessa was in a coma, and your only real objections are "It's metaphorical" "She probably wasn't always like that" and "hey look a window."

Author:  The Adversary [ 20 May 2009 ]
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>There's several comments and quotes that make it pretty damn clear Alessa was in a coma
Cite me one peremptorily that hasn't already been refuted.

Note. You won't find one in either Silent Hill Official Guidebook Complete Edition or Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle.

Author:  AuraTwilight [ 20 May 2009 ]
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You didn't really refute them. A refutation takes more than "it might be metaphorical" or "maybe not ALWAYS."

Author:  The Adversary [ 20 May 2009 ]
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Good job on the citation.

Writing "She was always in a coma" isn't exactly proof, you know. Onus probandi, &c.

Author:  Burning Man [ 20 May 2009 ]
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AuraTwilight wrote:
I think you guys are just reaching here. There's several comments and quotes that make it pretty damn clear Alessa was in a coma, and your only real objections are "It's metaphorical" "She probably wasn't always like that" and "hey look a window."

The intro scene shows Alessa waking up and looking at the camera: not exactly supportive of "she's been in a coma all this time" no matter how you look at it. Was the Alessa figure in the wheelchair in Nowhere in a coma or not?

Someone in a coma is practically "brain-dead" as Arsonist put it, and that means what it means. Certain people are not going to be able to astral project themselves when they're supposed to be "brain-dead." You realize there's already a contradiction there. You can't say that Alessa wouldn't be able to write a diary, but then accept that she can astral project herself.

MMY wrote:
Writing "She was always in a coma" isn't exactly proof, you know. Onus probandi, &c.

No, but stating "the game makes it pretty damn clear" certainly is.

Author:  Krysta [ 20 May 2009 ]
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GrievousGarland wrote:
But actually, the only flaw I can see in Lisa in SH1 is that she was a little selfish. She'd rather Harry stay with her than continue looking for his daughter. That was part of her purpose in SH anyway though, can't really blame her. :?


You know Lisa in SH1 isn't human anymore, not a 'typical' boogie either, so you can't assign to her human nature features, like selfishness. Her behaviour is driven by the feelings she had at the end of her existence strongly influenced by Alessas nightmare. Memory of Lisa sucked by Alessa into her nightmare. You can see 'real Lisa' in Origins, of course, if you want to. She was hot slut ready to give head for another dope, you thanked Climax for that already? I'm sure for all those Lisa lover this must be horrible


As the game and all the odds within states, physiclly Alessa is in a full time comatose condition. Even after merging soul with Cheryl, she didn't hear any alarm clock in her room alright. I don't understand why you seem to see a problem with Alessa, running a dairy. She can draw Seal of Metatrons all over da place, so pencil and paper shuldn't be a problem for her either to get

Author:  The Adversary [ 20 May 2009 ]
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>You know Lisa in SH1 isn't human anymore
Lisa is real in Silent Hill.

>physiclly Alessa is in a full time comatose condition.
Alessa is seen rising out of bed in the introduction. She's clearly not comatose.

Author:  Krysta [ 21 May 2009 ]
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intro scene doesn't matter. It's irrelevant because that't not a person we are talking about here, one who was completely immolated. From obvious estetic reasons Alessa had to be presented in intro like a some-girl with fine brushed hairs, not a rusted brain dead beef. In game character design contradicts that. So that scene is irrelevant for that reason. Don't tell me thumb up from Alessa will be another argument...

Lisa is 'real' allright. Question of interpretation, fact is she isn't really real anymore

Author:  Burning Man [ 21 May 2009 ]
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Krysta wrote:
In game character design contradicts that.

You mean the figure in the wheelchair at the end? That's the only "physical" Alessa we see in SH1 in-game, and she's wearing those ceremonial robes. (Here's hoping you're not comparing it to Alessa's apparition that we see throughout the game.)

It also goes without saying that aesthetics has nothing to do with the developers showing Alessa waking up. Intro scene is quite relevant here.

Author:  AuraTwilight [ 21 May 2009 ]
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Quote:
The intro scene shows Alessa waking up and looking at the camera: not exactly supportive of "she's been in a coma all this time" no matter how you look at it. Was the Alessa figure in the wheelchair in Nowhere in a coma or not?


I personally interpret that as Alessa waking up right as Harry and Cybil pull into town, then reuniting with Cheryl. The burned Alessa in Nowhere is "empty", since the full soul is right next to it.

Quote:
Someone in a coma is practically "brain-dead" as Arsonist put it, and that means what it means. Certain people are not going to be able to astral project themselves when they're supposed to be "brain-dead." You realize there's already a contradiction there. You can't say that Alessa wouldn't be able to write a diary, but then accept that she can astral project herself.


Not all coma cases involve the victim being brain-dead, and there's no evidence for this to be the case with Alessa. And since Astral projection is basically the soul leaving the body entirely, I don't think the status of the brain would matter much anyway.

Author:  The Adversary [ 21 May 2009 ]
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A coma, by definition, is "a state of deep unarousable unconsciousness." Astral projection requires a conscious effort. W/out a functioning brain, w/out consciousness, the effort cannot be made.

>Question of interpretation, fact is she isn't really real anymore
Your facts require evidence. You're not providing any.

Author:  Burning Man [ 21 May 2009 ]
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AuraTwilight wrote:
I personally interpret that as Alessa waking up right as Harry and Cybil pull into town, then reuniting with Cheryl. The burned Alessa in Nowhere is "empty", since the full soul is right next to it.

Part of the problem is assuming that astral projection is sending off part of the soul outside the body. This may or may not be true.

And, I bring this up because your version of events requires a lot of "backtracking," so to speak, for Alessa to simply wake up. That is, in your version of events, a body must contain the complete soul in order to wake up. So, either Alessa and Cheryl merged, and then the soul went all the way back to the body, so that she could wake up, only to have the soul move out of the body again... or Cheryl's half went all the way to Alchemilla basement where Alessa's half was, merged there, so that she could wake up, only to have the soul move out of the body again...

You see the point I'm trying to make here.

Quote:
Not all coma cases involve the victim being brain-dead, and there's no evidence for this to be the case with Alessa.

Indeed, I'm only talking about Arsonist's impression there.

Author:  Arsonist [ 21 May 2009 ]
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Quote:
Indeed, I'm only talking about Arsonist's impression there.


You misinterpret what I had said.

Quote:
A corpse, a coma patient or a brain-dead person is a husk


Never said one must be the other. Alessa clearly isn’t brain-dead, she’s dreaming and she’s able to breathe on her own.

There is also a possibility the other half of Alessa, her conscience, was in the otherworld, while the body was comatose and un-responsive in the real world. Which would account for “astral projection”, she may not be consciously projecting herself there, she could just be living in the otherworld, while her body is chilling in the real world. It wouldn’t be the only time something like that happened in SH.

Quote:
Alessa is seen rising out of bed in the introduction. She's clearly not comatose.


“Still alive, but with wounds that don’t heal” – In the intro, she seems perfectly healed, better then most burn victims… Do we rather take the intro as a reliable evidence, or the game itself?

Not to mention Alessa’s house being located in the middle of fucking nowhere in the intro, but the ingame memo, clearly suggests they have had neighbors, who’s property was damaged by the fire.

The intro isn’t as reliable source as you’d like it to be.

Further more, in the final area, Alessa’s physical body is definitively crispy again, being inconsistent with the intro.

Quote:
Your facts require evidence.


As do yours, lack of evidence, isn’t evidence!

Angela was raped because it is clearly implied she was by the boss-room design, her aversion and stereotyping of the opposite sex as sex-hungry pigs, the boss design itself as well as her line “Maybe you could just force, beat me up like he always did.”

Lisa is dead because she says so. “Why I’m still alive, even though everyone else is dead… I’m the same as them, I just haven’t noticed it before”

And Alessa is in a fucking coma because Dahlia, the doctor and Lisa say she is.

“Eyes don’t open… Getting a pulse, but just barely breathing.”

“What soul remains captured in that husk, is buried deep down in the subconscious.”

“Alessa has been trapped in an endless nightmare from which she never awakens.”

I’m sorry, but that is evidence

“The guidebook doesn’t specify it” –Is not, that’s just lack of evidence to the contrary and it proves nothing.

The guidebook doesn’t say Dahlia isn’t a robot, so, is it safe for me to assume that she is?

Please, you’re too smart for this, you’re just doing this to annoy, admit it.

Quote:
And, I bring this up because your version of events requires a lot of "backtracking," so to speak, for Alessa to simply wake up. That is, in your version of events, a body must contain the complete soul in order to wake up. So, either Alessa and Cheryl merged, and then the soul went all the way back to the body, so that she could wake up, only to have the soul move out of the body again... or Cheryl's half went all the way to Alchemilla basement where Alessa's half was, merged there, so that she could wake up, only to have the soul move out of the body again...


Why isn’t it possible for Cheryl’s proximity, alone, to be enough to wake Alessa?

Author:  The Adversary [ 21 May 2009 ]
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>Not to mention Alessa’s house being located in the middle of fucking nowhere in the intro
Just b/c you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

>Angela was raped
You're also using evidence absent in the Japanese script.

>Lisa is dead because she says so.
You realize your quote says she's alive, right? You also misrepresented your quote by taking lines from 2 separate scenes and treating them as if they were from the same.

>And Alessa is in a fucking coma because Dahlia, the doctor and Lisa say she is.
None of them say "corpse," "coma," or "brain-dead."

Your point becomes more valid, by the way, by the amount of vulgarities you use. You and AuraTwilight should totally team up!

Author:  AuraTwilight [ 21 May 2009 ]
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Quote:
A coma, by definition, is "a state of deep unarousable unconsciousness." Astral projection requires a conscious effort. W/out a functioning brain, w/out consciousness, the effort cannot be made.


I can cite various examples in fiction wherein Astral Projection is performed subconsciously, and some comatose people have brain activity, so lack of a functioning brain isn't a prerequisite of being comatose.

Quote:
Part of the problem is assuming that astral projection is sending off part of the soul outside the body. This may or may not be true.


Astral projection is one's consciousness/soul/mind leaving the physical body. That's like saying "telekinesis may or may not be a psychic power involving mental movement of objects."

Quote:
And, I bring this up because your version of events requires a lot of "backtracking," so to speak, for Alessa to simply wake up. That is, in your version of events, a body must contain the complete soul in order to wake up. So, either Alessa and Cheryl merged, and then the soul went all the way back to the body, so that she could wake up, only to have the soul move out of the body again... or Cheryl's half went all the way to Alchemilla basement where Alessa's half was, merged there, so that she could wake up, only to have the soul move out of the body again...


Way to assume things about my version of events. My theory is merely that Cheryl's arrival in town woke up Alessa. I didn't say anything about Cheryl's spirit having to go allll the way to Alessa and back, that's just nonsense.

Also, Arsonist <3 Beating me to the intro again.

Author:  Krysta [ 21 May 2009 ]
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FOA chill u guys, wth being mean and all?...Thx Arsonist, I was about to deliver these 'evidences', as basicly, there aren't any other options anyway, if we
look out through the game. Dahlia and Co really seem to know enough about Alessa current state and enough information is being given to us, unless you want to assume that Dahlia knows shit really so why not taking her words as granted? Besides Dahlia has the body...

Fact is her physical body is trapped together with the rest of the cast. I never actually thought how does this situation relfects on the 'normal reality'. Dahlia is the ultimate owner of her body, but she can't get control over the astral form, in which Alessa is making malicious damage to her plan. Fact is she can't be brain dead even though being in coma. I don't get it why this seem to be a problem

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