The Bad Ending...confused

[game_over]

Somehow, I feel this ending connects to SH2 in some way.

James had a Dopleganger, right? What if one of them was this guy?

Lest just leave it for now.

[AuraTwilight]

I thought it was a rather good ending actually. I mean yeah it's confusing, but that just encourages us to talk and analyze it more. I have a theory that I'm gonna throw out there. You noticed that the person watching Travis looked like a cultist, well what if the bad ending. Is just another take, on how the game actually ends, with the cultist gathered around Alessa, and if you notice while that's going on Travis is passed out on the floor. So ti could very well be, that Travis was in a dream state through the entire time the demon was inpregnating Alessa. I mean you really dont see what Travis is dreaming after the Flarous inprisons the Demon. Who's to say that perhaps Travis was dreaming about being strapped to that bed, and dreaming of all the other crap that was happening.

No. Just no.

James had a Dopleganger, right? What if one of them was this guy?

James hasn't even been to Silent Hill, yet, why would he have a doppelganger?

[game_over]

James had a Dopleganger, right? What if one of them was this guy?

James hasn't even been to Silent Hill, yet, why would he have a doppelganger?

To be honest, I didn't understand the above question(?) or statement(?). Let me make my self a bit more clear.

What I'm saying is, that Travis ruined that plans of the order in SH0, the order payed him back by making him a Pyramid head or "executioner" of their cult, years pass by, James arrives at the town(with her wife in the trunk) for the seconds time and meets PH (one of em, probably the one with the dark skin).

Travis is probably Jame's evil twin AKA doppelganger. He performs the dirty stuff for James to watch and feel punished and satisfied. Travis, according to the monsters in him mind, especially the one with the double back, showed that he was probably into sex with no condom(this word is a pun) and rape and murder.

Although Konami might've ran out of storyline, they decided to create a character who could be PH's past self with a dark past.

[FatalFrame]

I just kind of think they threw it in there to mess with us. There doesn't seem to be much prrof beyond a few notes and pictures. And I'm not even convinced those have anything to do with Travis. No one knows who took the pictures and why, since at least one of them doesn't point specifically to foul play and I believe the other is talking about his father.
The notes could also apply to Alessa who was abused herself. I don't have any idea what the ending could be, just a few impressions.

1. The table where he's strapped down appears to me to be in the Otherworld because the table is all bloody and everything around him is corroded and nasty.

2. The figure watching him looks like a cult member to me (I believe someone already said this, I'm not sure), not a doctor.
It just seems like to me that if they wanted to impress on us that he was in a Psychiatric hospital in reality then they would show a normal one. The voices I can't explain. Maybe they were memories of people he'd killed or maybe they were people he wished he'd killed. I don't know.

[AuraTwilight]

What I'm saying is, that Travis ruined that plans of the order in SH0, the order payed him back by making him a Pyramid head or "executioner" of their cult, years pass by, James arrives at the town(with her wife in the trunk) for the seconds time and meets PH (one of em, probably the one with the dark skin).

Oh come on, you KNOW that's wrong, why the hell are you even suggesting it? James created the Pyramid Heads, fact. They're aspects of his psyche.

Travis is probably Jame's evil twin AKA doppelganger. He performs the dirty stuff for James to watch and feel punished and satisfied. Travis, according to the monsters in him mind, especially the one with the double back, showed that he was probably into sex with no condom(this word is a pun) and rape and murder.

Although Konami might've ran out of storyline, they decided to create a character who could be PH's past self with a dark past.

Even stupider. You can't turn a real person, literally, into a manifested illusion representing someone's matricidal sex complex. Why would the cult even care about James, anyway? He's totally inconsequential.

As for the ending, I'm going with FatalFrame. Maybe he got stuck in his own Otherworld, hearing voices encouraging him to kill, trapped in an Otherworld psychiatric hospital as some sort of manifestation of his family's psychiatrically dark past, and slowly becoming the Butcher in personality, the cult member probably not being real, such as Travis having a theory that the monsters are real beings being mutated by the cult, and he's projecting that? Bah.

The Good Ending makes more consistent sense, let's just go with that one.

[saito]

Alright, this post has been bugging me for a while. What comes to follow, please note that is a collection of other opinions, and my own, so don't freak out.

For one, in the ending (the bad one, of course) You can see Pyramid Head/The Butcher in the mirror along side Travis as he struggles. The flashbacks obviously shift between him and the trademark helm of Pyramid Head. The creature mirrors all of Travis' movements. The creature at the end, standing in the doorway (Yes, I noticed as well) was most likely a Cult Member.

Because of the syringes and the obvious chemicals beside Travis (not to mention the usual themes of Silent Hill) there is no doubt in my mind that he was experimented on. Now, to go with my theory and to go with the obvious scenes in the ending, the drugs administered were probably to break his mind, to allow the transformation to flow smoothly. Because you need to slaughter 100-200 foes in order to get this ending, I can see the logic behind why he would turn into the replacement for the Butcher.

Another thing, this is Silent Hill we're talking about. The same place where you can go through mirrors. There doesn't need to be any logic, this world is all free reign and madness. If there was a Butcher, doesn't it make sense that it would need replacing?

Not only that, but it is possible that Travis becoming Pyramid Head/The Butcher's replacement ties into the fact that there could have been a creature before James ever came. Yes, the two Pyramid Head's from Silent Hill 2 are from James' psyche, but the idea had to have spawned from something, as many hallucinations do (from previous events, experiences, and pre-crafted models within our minds).

Where would James have that sort of memory? Think about it, its Silent Hill. As stated before, not only does it not need logic, but those whom are drawn to Silent Hill tend to slowly remember quite a bit about the place. Not to mention that Pyramid Head usually has a painting of himself in one place or another throughout the crazy town and those drawn there sometimes see things that could or could not be of their own memories. Anything is possible, in Silent Hill. (Hello, can you say double headed mutant babies? C'mon.)

Not only that, but Pyramid Head is an executioner, a judge, and bringer of punishment in Silent Hill. James' desire for punishment could have been what drew the memories of a previous being (Travis as the Replacement) forth and from there, James could have altered, or doubled the creature accordingly.

Silent Hill did have executioners, and they had to dress according to the role. According to an opinion I read from another debater, their dress was somewhat like Pyramid Head, and there was more than one of them. (The opinions pulled from what was found in Lost Memories, a collection of comics, I believe.)

More than likely, all the happens to him in the bad ending is punishment for stopping the Cult. In an interview I read about Pyramid Head's initial design, the helm was crafted to be an extreme weight upon the head, neck, and shoulders in order to bring about a punishment for the creature trapped within. So while Pyramid Head was dealing out punishment, it was receiving some of its own.

...yeah.

[AuraTwilight]

For one, in the ending (the bad one, of course) You can see Pyramid Head/The Butcher in the mirror along side Travis as he struggles. The flashbacks obviously shift between him and the trademark helm of Pyramid Head. The creature mirrors all of Travis' movements. The creature at the end, standing in the doorway (Yes, I noticed as well) was most likely a Cult Member.

Twas the Butcher. Nothing related to the Pyramid Head appears.

Because of the syringes and the obvious chemicals beside Travis (not to mention the usual themes of Silent Hill) there is no doubt in my mind that he was experimented on. Now, to go with my theory and to go with the obvious scenes in the ending, the drugs administered were probably to break his mind, to allow the transformation to flow smoothly. Because you need to slaughter 100-200 foes in order to get this ending, I can see the logic behind why he would turn into the replacement for the Butcher.

Or perhaps he was the Butcher all along. After all, no amount of chemicals can turn you into a Silent Hill monster, so if anything, they're drugs to sedate his mind.

Another thing, this is Silent Hill we're talking about. The same place where you can go through mirrors. There doesn't need to be any logic, this world is all free reign and madness. If there was a Butcher, doesn't it make sense that it would need replacing?

I'm sorry, but this is bullshit. There's plenty of logic to the events of Silent Hill, but that's not the same thing as Silent Hill following the physical laws of nature.

Not only that, but it is possible that Travis becoming Pyramid Head/The Butcher's replacement ties into the fact that there could have been a creature before James ever came. Yes, the two Pyramid Head's from Silent Hill 2 are from James' psyche, but the idea had to have spawned from something, as many hallucinations do (from previous events, experiences, and pre-crafted models within our minds).

You're right. James got them from a painting though, not a mutated Travis.

Where would James have that sort of memory? Think about it, its Silent Hill. As stated before, not only does it not need logic, but those whom are drawn to Silent Hill tend to slowly remember quite a bit about the place. Not to mention that Pyramid Head usually has a painting of himself in one place or another throughout the crazy town and those drawn there sometimes see things that could or could not be of their own memories. Anything is possible, in Silent Hill. (Hello, can you say double headed mutant babies? C'mon.)

Again, saying "This is Silent hill LOL" doesn't contribute anything, so you can cut it out. We know for a fact that James and Travis have nothing to do for each other, and Pyramid Head isn't some transmogrified Travis. Besides, why does the Butcher need to be replaced? Travis created it after all, it's not some important, integral part of the Otherworld like the God or something.

Not only that, but Pyramid Head is an executioner, a judge, and bringer of punishment in Silent Hill. James' desire for punishment could have been what drew the memories of a previous being (Travis as the Replacement) forth and from there, James could have altered, or doubled the creature accordingly.

So then why does Travis need to BECOME this? Why can't James have just created the original Pyramid Head if he can alter or multiply it? You're not making any sense, sir.

Silent Hill did have executioners, and they had to dress according to the role. According to an opinion I read from another debater, their dress was somewhat like Pyramid Head, and there was more than one of them. (The opinions pulled from what was found in Lost Memories, a collection of comics, I believe.)

Yup. The Butcher isn't one of them though. Butchers aren't Executioners.

More than likely, all the happens to him in the bad ending is punishment for stopping the Cult. In an interview I read about Pyramid Head's initial design, the helm was crafted to be an extreme weight upon the head, neck, and shoulders in order to bring about a punishment for the creature trapped within. So while Pyramid Head was dealing out punishment, it was receiving some of its own.

Except the Cult can't magically turn people into monsters, and they have no motive to do so. If they wanted to punish him, they'd have killed him like they did EVERY OTHER PERSON. It's my personal opinion that they might be planning to drug/kill him, but mentally, inside himself, he's becoming the Butcher by embracing his killer side, and the brief, imaginary physical transformation is symbolism of this.

[saito]

Like I said, this is all opinions, so don't mind me when I say calm down. Theories, thats all its ever been. Now its my turn.

Twas the Butcher. Nothing related to the Pyramid Head appears.

Uh...what ending were you watching? Last time I checked, the Butcher didn't have Pyramid Head's Helm...

Or perhaps he was the Butcher all along. After all, no amount of chemicals can turn you into a Silent Hill monster, so if anything, they're drugs to sedate his mind.

Sedate it? Yes, that explains how his eyes decided to have their own rave party in his sockets. He could have been the Butcher, yes, but that doesn't explain a lot of what happened through the game. I'm trying to find the connections, besides the small audio inferences the Silent Hill crew gave us, but I think you might need to explain it for me.

I'm sorry, but this is bullshit. There's plenty of logic to the events of Silent Hill, but that's not the same thing as Silent Hill following the physical laws of nature.

Yes, because it is logical for creatures that look like giant bald butt animals to stalk around deserted towns and attack people. Its logical for mirrors to transfer people between whatever slim reality Silent Hill has and hell. Silent Hill is a horror survival game. There are connections, background plots, and things of that sort but there isn't a logical explanation behind a town with magic mirrors, distorted creatures, of small pyramids that open gateways to Gods. Silent Hill typically is the result of insanity, of a psychological problem in which someone manifests the creatures, and all who are entangled are also brought into the situation. Its a extreme result of a psychological break down and, logically, that just doesn't happen everyday, does it?

You're right. James got them from a painting though, not a mutated Travis.

Painting had to come from somewhere, didn't it?

Again, saying "This is Silent hill LOL" doesn't contribute anything, so you can cut it out. We know for a fact that James and Travis have nothing to do for each other, and Pyramid Head isn't some transmogrified Travis. Besides, why does the Butcher need to be replaced? Travis created it after all, it's not some important, integral part of the Otherworld like the God or something.

I'm slightly insulted by the fact you put words in my mouth such as internet slang, but anyways, I'm simply saying that not every little integral detail has to be explained. Its a horror survival game, made to inspire fear, and sometimes fear simply doesn't have a rational explanation. I posted my own theories in the hopes of making further connections by bouncing my ideas off others, however, I was unaware of the hostility. Anyways, James and Travis are separate, I do realize this. I didn't say they were connected in the sense that they meet up and say, "Hey, hows it going, my life sucks too."

So then why does Travis need to BECOME this? Why can't James have just created the original Pyramid Head if he can alter or multiply it? You're not making any sense, sir.

It makes plenty of sense to me, actually, I suppose I'm just horrible at explaining myself. Travis does not need to become this, I never said he needed to. I said that the Butcher needed a replacement. There is a certain hierarchy in Silent Hill, and something along the lines of Pyramid Head, or the Butcher, is usually present (but not always). A being that brings about punishment has appeared in more than one game and usually there are several articles that can be found about such beings. It is, whether or not you see it, an integral part of Silent Hill. Not always there, but its prominent.

Yup. The Butcher isn't one of them though. Butchers aren't Executioners.

I didn't say, or at least I did not mean to infer, that the Butcher was an executioner. He was a valuable soldier, and the closest thing they had to Pyramid Head, the executioner. There have been many executioners through out the time of Silent Hill and there fore James' manifestations of the two Pyramid Heads are not the only times in which they have existed, is what I meant to say. Not to mention that there isn't much of a transformation needed, so much as a change. The drugs, in which could be served to break Travis' mind could also serve to enhance his body. After that all you need to give him is the trademarks of the executioner, yes?

Except the Cult can't magically turn people into monsters, and they have no motive to do so. If they wanted to punish him, they'd have killed him like they did EVERY OTHER PERSON. It's my personal opinion that they might be planning to drug/kill him, but mentally, inside himself, he's becoming the Butcher by embracing his killer side, and the brief, imaginary physical transformation is symbolism of this.

Like I said before, becoming Pyramid Head isn't really as magical as you make it sound. Think about it, is the creature really, at all, like the deformed creatures usually found? Looks like a man with a helm to me, but I suppose thats just me. Perhaps what you said before is true. If he was already well on his way to becoming the Butcher (or already was) why give up the opportunity to bring back such a soldier?

But like you have said, and I have said, this is all theories, personal explanations, and opinions. I'm just trying to bounce off my ideas, see if they fit with valid points.

[FatalFrame]

Quote:
You're right. James got them from a painting though, not a mutated Travis.


Painting had to come from somewhere, didn't it? "

I've got to back AuraTwilight on this one. The painting came from the days when The Historical Society was Toluca Prison. The painting was the executioners of the prison in their executioner garb. They were there way before Travis was.

[saito]

I've got to back AuraTwilight on this one. The painting came from the days when The Historical Society was Toluca Prison. The painting was the executioners of the prison in their executioner garb. They were there way before Travis was.

Yes, yes, I know this. But as I said, there were many executioners. It cannot be denied that it is a possibility.

[David01]

I agree with Saito on this theory... and what he is trying to say is. That yes PH was a manifestation of James, and yes the Executioners were of a time waaay back in time. However, it is possible, That Travis had also seen painting of the executioners, and manifested his own delusion from this. Thus causing him to think the he was becoming an executioner, mind you in his mind! he thought he was becoming perhaps what he saw in one of the paintings in town.


I mean afterall, travis had been to Silent Hill before, thats fairly obvious. I'm sure many others had seen those images as well, those paintings throughout town. And the mind is a very powerful thing indeed, and can manifest alot of strange things given the chance. The mental strain of what he saw through out the story, is what perhaps drove him to think he was a murderer or executioner/butcher if you will.

[AuraTwilight]

Like I said, this is all opinions, so don't mind me when I say calm down. Theories, thats all its ever been. Now its my turn.

I'm plenty calm, I'm just an assertive debater. Don't think I'm angry.

Uh...what ending were you watching? Last time I checked, the Butcher didn't have Pyramid Head's Helm...

Neither did the figure in the ending. kthx.

Sedate it? Yes, that explains how his eyes decided to have their own rave party in his sockets. He could have been the Butcher, yes, but that doesn't explain a lot of what happened through the game. I'm trying to find the connections, besides the small audio inferences the Silent Hill crew gave us, but I think you might need to explain it for me.

What, then? What doesn't it explain?

Yes, because it is logical for creatures that look like giant bald butt animals to stalk around deserted towns and attack people. Its logical for mirrors to transfer people between whatever slim reality Silent Hill has and hell. Silent Hill is a horror survival game. There are connections, background plots, and things of that sort but there isn't a logical explanation behind a town with magic mirrors, distorted creatures, of small pyramids that open gateways to Gods. Silent Hill typically is the result of insanity, of a psychological problem in which someone manifests the creatures, and all who are entangled are also brought into the situation. Its a extreme result of a psychological break down and, logically, that just doesn't happen everyday, does it?

It's logical, but it's not physically possible. There's a difference. Something that isn't logical would be "microwaving a burrito until it gets ice cold."

All of the examples you cited take place in alternate worlds which, according to those laws, make the phenomena entirely possible and logically sound.

Painting had to come from somewhere, didn't it?

Yes, they were paintings of the Executioners who killed prisoners way back in Silent Hill's past, but they weren't supernatural monsters. The Pyramid Head has nothing in common with them except for appearance.

I'm slightly insulted by the fact you put words in my mouth such as internet slang, but anyways, I'm simply saying that not every little integral detail has to be explained. Its a horror survival game, made to inspire fear, and sometimes fear simply doesn't have a rational explanation. I posted my own theories in the hopes of making further connections by bouncing my ideas off others, however, I was unaware of the hostility. Anyways, James and Travis are separate, I do realize this. I didn't say they were connected in the sense that they meet up and say, "Hey, hows it going, my life sucks too."

Well, if you're just going with the "It's just a game, it doesn't need to be explained or match up", then what are you doing here?

It makes plenty of sense to me, actually, I suppose I'm just horrible at explaining myself. Travis does not need to become this, I never said he needed to. I said that the Butcher needed a replacement. There is a certain hierarchy in Silent Hill, and something along the lines of Pyramid Head, or the Butcher, is usually present (but not always). A being that brings about punishment has appeared in more than one game and usually there are several articles that can be found about such beings. It is, whether or not you see it, an integral part of Silent Hill. Not always there, but its prominent.

No, it's not. The Butcher and Pyramid Head are not integral parts of Silent Hill's cosmology, and if destroyed, do not need to replaced. This is your own personal opinion, but it's just not factual. The only beings that can even be argued for such an integral status are the three Gods of the Order, and even those aren't really confirmed. The Butcher and the Executioner are not the same entities, and don't even have the same purpose. They're pretty much entirely unrelated save for a possible allusion to the Jungian Shadow, and each one exists specifically for Travis and James, respectively.

The Butcher is a manifestation of Travis's inner killer or destructive tendencies, and the Pyramid Head is a manifestation of James' guilt and desire for punishment. They're only similar and comparable in that they're both the dark sides of their creators, representing that which they do not want to accept. But Alessa, Heather and Walter never encounter any such figures, and we don't have any reason to believe that Angela, Eddie, or any of the hundreds of other people that come into the Otherworld ever do, and unless each and every one of them have a similar entity in their Otherworlds, the Shadow figure is not "Integral."

I didn't say, or at least I did not mean to infer, that the Butcher was an executioner. He was a valuable soldier, and the closest thing they had to Pyramid Head, the executioner. There have been many executioners through out the time of Silent Hill and there fore James' manifestations of the two Pyramid Heads are not the only times in which they have existed, is what I meant to say. Not to mention that there isn't much of a transformation needed, so much as a change. The drugs, in which could be served to break Travis' mind could also serve to enhance his body. After that all you need to give him is the trademarks of the executioner, yes?

The Order does not create, control, or even know of, the monsters that James, Travis, or anyone else sees. The Pyramid Head is not their soldier, and does not exist in the real world. Why the hell do you replace an imaginary construct that won't even exist for over two decades with a real person for a purpose that has nothing to do with your entire organization's goal?

The Order is concerned only with the birth of God. The Otherworld and it's monsters, victims, magical worlds, and special traits are completely unimportant to them unless directly tied in to God's birth. You don't have a plank to stand on with your theory, it's bogus.

Like I said before, becoming Pyramid Head isn't really as magical as you make it sound. Think about it, is the creature really, at all, like the deformed creatures usually found? Looks like a man with a helm to me, but I suppose thats just me. Perhaps what you said before is true. If he was already well on his way to becoming the Butcher (or already was) why give up the opportunity to bring back such a soldier?

Seeing as how Pyramid Head is super strong, breaks physical law on multiple occasions, and is a psychic projection of James', yes, it is a "magical" transformation. Not to mention that the Order doesn't have any monster soldiers like the Pyramid Head. They just don't.

It cannot be denied that it is a possibility.

Yes, it can. It's as possible as saying Angela is Alessa.

I agree with Saito on this theory... and what he is trying to say is. That yes PH was a manifestation of James, and yes the Executioners were of a time waaay back in time. However, it is possible, That Travis had also seen painting of the executioners, and manifested his own delusion from this. Thus causing him to think the he was becoming an executioner, mind you in his mind! he thought he was becoming perhaps what he saw in one of the paintings in town.

That's silly. There aren't any paintings of the Butcher, and it has nothing to do with the Executioners. The Executioners were anonymous, government sanctioned individuals who killed people who committed crimes. The Butcher is just a serial killer that butchers people just for the hell of it. No relation.

And it'd be really...really...REALLY fucking lame if the Butcher was caused by a train of thought he had while he was in the Otherworld. That would be like saying James's guilt was caused not by Mary's death, but because he called Eddie a fatass.

I mean afterall, travis had been to Silent Hill before, thats fairly obvious. I'm sure many others had seen those images as well, those paintings throughout town. And the mind is a very powerful thing indeed, and can manifest alot of strange things given the chance. The mental strain of what he saw through out the story, is what perhaps drove him to think he was a murderer or executioner/butcher if you will.

That isn't really what Saito's been trying to say at all. Furthermore, what kind of person do you think Travis is if you think he's scared of becoming a horrible murderer just for seeing a painting of one? Is this the "violent games make kids violent" mentality, or what? Most likely, Travis either actually killed someone, or he's been harboring homicidal, destructive, monstrous tendencies inside himself for a while, and the Butcher is a reflection of that. Either that, or he could feel like a murderer because he feels responsible for what happened to his parents.

[game_over]

Travis would become the executioner? Maybe.
Travis would become Pyramid head? There is a possibility, but people would wonder why is he in Jame's mind.
Travis become the Butcher? Maybe. Just to work in the Butcher store, cutting meat and enjoying the smell of meat and fat. Maybe just going Rocky on the meat with a one-two.

I'm now losing my taste in pudding.

[Anonymous]

I pretty sure that Travis is or used to be a serial killer. The photo's you find in the hotel pretty much confirm this. As for the Butcher, that's Silent Hill's manefestation of Travis's dark side, the way Travis slams the cleaver into it after he destroy's it shows he recognises this.
I think the Butcher's appearence is basicly a distorted version of the Pyramid Head he seen in the painting in Dhalia's house, there's just too many similarities for it not to be.

[AuraTwilight]

The photo's you find in the hotel pretty much confirm this.

Not really.

I think the Butcher's appearence is basicly a distorted version of the Pyramid Head he seen in the painting in Dhalia's house, there's just too many similarities for it not to be.

Two words: Collective Unconsciousness.

[psychopath]

concerning the idea that travis has been in the sanitarium his whole life as some one said(i forgot/too lazy to check) why would he have his regular clothes on and not a strait jacket or sumthing. Besides that, that is the best interpretationnthat im sticking with

[AuraTwilight]

No one ever said Travis was in a sanitarium his whole life, dude.

Besides, it's not that hard to change clothes once you get out of a sanitarium. The real question is HOW HE GOT A TRUCK.

[psychopath]

ooooooooooh ok i get it; was that thing in the mirror the other version of travis or just the thing where they could of possibly got the liquid in the syringe from?

[AuraTwilight]

Which thing in the mirror? I'm not sure I know what you're talking about.

[JosephB]

If you wanna see some information about SH:0 i leave you this page:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/file/933072/50757

It got plenty of stuff, like references to the others games, how to get the accolades, the endings and some randoms tidbits, worth to check it out.