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(I was not refrencing you Angelof when I made that pyramid head comment.

Well to that end Aura, Travis is not a reliable source of information. You can't trust his sights and visions. You would say that Travis is the picture of mental health? And the fact that his mother and have similar "visions". Visions that in fact coincide with characters from other games... The access to this world is one of the only differences with the mirror being exclusive to Travis and his mother. The idea of his mother being in a catatonic state, this presumably means that she is "traversing the other world". To outright dismiss her claims as being delusional is not trying to develop a strong theory.

I will however concede that nothing about that indicates that Travis is a murder, or a serial killer. It merely alludes to Travis carrying around with him a "dark passenger" (to steal from Dexter a little bit). Even if you discard the idea of the murderous Travis, you steal don't entirely discard that a strong link between the Butcher and Travis exists. More so then just another monster antagonist.


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Historical Society Historian
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Travis is not a reliable source of information. You can't trust his sights and visions.


That's true for almost every Silent Hill character we've ever had, though we can trust his sights and visions because they're given by Alessa.

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You would say that Travis is the picture of mental health?


Um, no, obviously not if I'm theorizing he has multiple personalities, repressed memories, and an inferiority complex.

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And the fact that his mother and have similar "visions". Visions that in fact coincide with characters from other games... The access to this world is one of the only differences with the mirror being exclusive to Travis and his mother. The idea of his mother being in a catatonic state, this presumably means that she is "traversing the other world". To outright dismiss her claims as being delusional is not trying to develop a strong theory.


I can dismiss those claims. She's crazy, schitzophrenic, and tried to kill an innocent child who probably had no such "devil" until she insisted he did. Her claims only have merit because Travis experiences them, and that can be explained by Travis simply using the delusions he heard from his mother as a basis for an Otherworld. Alessa probably took advantage of those devices to help unravel his past.

If she does have some involvement with the Otherworld, why her? Who are the men in the mirror? Why did they tell her to kill her son? How does it relate to her own psyche? You can't answer these questions, so I apply Ockham's Razor.

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I will however concede that nothing about that indicates that Travis is a murder, or a serial killer. It merely alludes to Travis carrying around with him a "dark passenger" (to steal from Dexter a little bit). Even if you discard the idea of the murderous Travis, you steal don't entirely discard that a strong link between the Butcher and Travis exists. More so then just another monster antagonist.


Obviously. I've never denied that, and I support the Butcher being connected to Travis. I'm sure you'd heard my Shadow Archetype theory?

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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No I didn't.... will know hunt for it.....be right back...Ok it linked me to this most recent post... perhaps you posted this theory on a different forum? Or I'm just badly performing the search function on this site. If you have the link I would like to read it.


You can certainly dismiss Helen's visions as schizophrenic, but it's hard to with the similarities. Also to go this route there is no information detailing Travis encountering his mother's more acute schizophrenic claims before reading about them in the Sanitarium. This is merely an assumption in of it's self and Travis goes through the mirror before reading this... if I remember correctly.

Also i forget that people place so much of a "spiritual" aura around the town and it's inhabitants. To me it's much more psychological. I know there is a supernatural element to the world (obviously), but I like to think that these people are broken which creates much of the world. But also going by the fact that it is an otherworld of in of it's self, things will be generated outside of the characters "hands" so to speak. The mention of "the Butcher" you find in the Theater (costume room).

"Since what happened to Tony. I've dreamt about HIM more and more! THE BUTCHER! He looks just like that monster, the Executioner! Now I've seen him when I'm awake. He's at my motel! It's HIM I swear it!"

So by there being others outside of Travis who have encountered the Butcher, and linking it to that motel... you have a couple of Avenues of thought to pursue... that Travis is more in tune with the Butcher (perhaps it being another aspect of Travis) then you suggest. Another idea being that the motel itself has some more dark secrets yet to be reveled.

Honestly the game is at fault... Every game has been vague and left things to interpretation but in this case there are hardly any really intriguing mysteries to discuss... and some of the more intriguing aspects are left far to empty to expound upon and discuss... the relationship with his Father and Mother is so god damn hollow in this game... and I know I'm getting off track, but the game really felt like they weren't sure where to take it whether it should plumb the depths of Travis's psyche or to pursue further the Alessa story.

My feelings are that I find more personnel stories much more intriguing then this huge cult conspiracy.

Anyway I would like to read your Shadow Archetype theory.... please send me some link.


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Historical Society Historian
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No I didn't.... will know hunt for it.....be right back...Ok it linked me to this most recent post... perhaps you posted this theory on a different forum? Or I'm just badly performing the search function on this site. If you have the link I would like to read it.


I've said it on the forum multiple times, but the search function is a little crappy. I'll restate it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29

After reading the above link, keep in mind that the Shadow Archetype, according to Jungian Psychology, is essentially the subliminated dark side of the mind. It is not "evil" or "bad", atleast not in an objective sense. It's the part of our minds we regard shamefully or fearfully and try and suppress or forget, even if other people might consider it "good." According to Jung, the Shadow appears in our dreams to try and confront us with the parts we suppress.

James' Shadow would be the fact that he killed Mary, and so Pyramid Head appears to try and force James to realize the truth. Travis's Shadow is up to debate, but the Shadow doesn't have to be a bad deed or a sin. Perhaps Travis just didn't like himself due to having ruined his family just for being alive.

He never had to actually DO anything, but since his mother treated him as a pest, and his father considered him a burden, he might've suppressed all of his unlikable qualities and grew up to be a kind, almost superhumanly sweet person who will literally go through hell for a total stranger. As a result, his Shadow might manifest as a magnified form of all his faults, real or imagined, and thus gives us the Butcher.

And since Butcher and Pyramid Head look similar, I contest that while they are not literally the same being, they are the same TYPE of being, the Shadow.

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You can certainly dismiss Helen's visions as schizophrenic, but it's hard to with the similarities. Also to go this route there is no information detailing Travis encountering his mother's more acute schizophrenic claims before reading about them in the Sanitarium. This is merely an assumption in of it's self and Travis goes through the mirror before reading this... if I remember correctly.


He went through the mirror years after he heard it. There's no way Helen never blathered about the mirror nonsense to Travis. She pretty much told him that the people from the mirror world considered him a devil/pest, and that probably stuck with him. And even if that's not the case, since Alessa created the world in the first place and was the one to show Travis how to work the mirrors, she could've used her astral projection abilities to find that note and used it as basis.

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Also i forget that people place so much of a "spiritual" aura around the town and it's inhabitants. To me it's much more psychological. I know there is a supernatural element to the world (obviously), but I like to think that these people are broken which creates much of the world. But also going by the fact that it is an otherworld of in of it's self, things will be generated outside of the characters "hands" so to speak. The mention of "the Butcher" you find in the Theater (costume room).


I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. We all know that the Otherworld is a creation of the human mind.

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"Since what happened to Tony. I've dreamt about HIM more and more! THE BUTCHER! He looks just like that monster, the Executioner! Now I've seen him when I'm awake. He's at my motel! It's HIM I swear it!"

So by there being others outside of Travis who have encountered the Butcher, and linking it to that motel... you have a couple of Avenues of thought to pursue... that Travis is more in tune with the Butcher (perhaps it being another aspect of Travis) then you suggest. Another idea being that the motel itself has some more dark secrets yet to be reveled.


It's possible that Alessa merely took some guy's unrelated hallucinations and used them to give physical form to Travis's Shadow. Otherwise it'd most likely look like an evil version of himself and kind've botch Alessa's plan. Then, the memetic nature of the Otherworld probably carried the Butcher motif, combined with James' memory of the Executioner, to form Pyramid Head. We already know the Otherworld mixes together aspects of other people's minds if they have things in common.

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Honestly the game is at fault... Every game has been vague and left things to interpretation but in this case there are hardly any really intriguing mysteries to discuss... and some of the more intriguing aspects are left far to empty to expound upon and discuss... the relationship with his Father and Mother is so god damn hollow in this game... and I know I'm getting off track, but the game really felt like they weren't sure where to take it whether it should plumb the depths of Travis's psyche or to pursue further the Alessa story.


I disagree. I found lots of emotional depth between Travis and his parents, and the games aren't THAT vague, you just need a good eye for detail. As for the game, it was pursuing both. Travis's psyche was directly correlated to Alessa's plan to use Travis as a conduit for her power.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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 Post subject:

Great stuff with the Shadow Being premise... the inclusion of the fact that Shadow does not equal "evil" is a very important fact. In the game, I like the fact that Travis finds the Butcher despicable for dicing up the very same monsters who are trying to kill him. That is perhaps one of the best glimpses of emotion. Though as a child Travis seems utterly emotionless. And I have to say that I have more play throughs to go, in order to satisfy my own personnel feeling of accomplishment with SH:O, but I do feel like the relationships could have been developed a little more. I really don't need everything force fed, but let me say that you "kill your mother" and it's like "meh" give me the next flauros piece.

I'm going to jump around a bit... to avoid excessive quoting on my end...

The religion thing that I mentioned is that Silent Hill takes on a very spiritual aspect for some people, the cult, the birthing of gods. All of that jazz. Where when I play it's a trip into someone's subconscious, with those elements taking a back seat, possible the trunk. I know they exist but they aren't as vital to my enjoyment of the game. I do recognize the importance of them to the game and that they are a part of it.

It's like an after thought... "oh yeah the Town is supernatural." Also please don't think I'm stating that anybody is taking the game as their Religion or anything... not my intent, saying their is a self contained religion. Bah I'm over complicating it.

The Butcher/Pyramid Head connection... is like a groan moment for me. I avoided even dealing with any info for this game until I could play it... I saw him and felt cheated. I know it's not the same thing... to me the Butcher is Pyramid Head from the movie. They slightly correlate between the games, but the Butcher is more of an allusion to what Travis is capable of becoming a possible warning? I mean up until you fight and ultimately kill him he is a non point. You can't interact with him in anyway and i would go as far as to say that he isn't even aware of your presence...

I think the bigger issue is not whether or not Travis is the Butcher, but the relationship they share (which I what your driving at and I'm realizing that I'm driving at as well) and how the indirectly connect. An example being the monster's asking for help... (see cap with HELP ME scrawled on it).

Though i will still say that I think your wrong in regards to the schizo mom. But meh, that's not really here nor there. :?:


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Historical Society Historian
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That wasn't a monster scrawling HELP ME, I think it was supposed to be Alessa. If monsters in Silent Hill are sentient enough to manage written language, we have a HUUUUGE OCEANLOAD of discussion to tackle.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hmmmm........ I never thought of it as being Alessa. I'm sure that makes more sense, but I think the possibility of it being the slain nurse outside of the butcher shop is a real one. It's harshly scribbled and bloody on the nurse's hat.... to me that's the monster especially when "Alessa" is interacting with you throughout the whole game. I know she doesn't talk to you, but I mean It's a bit redundant at that point in the game for her to scrawl help me on a nurses hat.... that could just be me though.

And I don't think it necessarily speaks of a profound sentience more of just a basic animalistic type nature, an animal knows when it's being hurt, and it knows when it can't adequately defend itself... and if there is no escape you cry out. And considering the Nurses are a twisted version of people, and they do posses something resembling hands, I think it's entirely possible....


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But if they ARE intelligent enough to be able to write out worses comprehensively, then yes, it does open a whole new can of worms.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
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I think it is similar to the Silent Hill 1 Bad Bad Ending... where Harry is so injured from the car crash that he hallucinated all the events.

Maybe Travis has just been caught by the cult earlier in the game, and is seeing hallucinations throughout the game. The drug that Kaufman and Lisa were on in the first one is said to cause hallucinations. Maybe they gave it to him too. I don't know enough about the substance to say for sure. I think he percieves himself as a Butcher in order to compensate for all the monsters he's killed in his dream state.

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I think it is similar to the Silent Hill 1 Bad Bad Ending... where Harry is so injured from the car crash that he hallucinated all the events.


It's not that Harry was hallucinating, it's that his soul only was pulled into the Otherworld, possibly like Lisa and Cybil, depending on your interpretations.

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Maybe Travis has just been caught by the cult earlier in the game, and is seeing hallucinations throughout the game. The drug that Kaufman and Lisa were on in the first one is said to cause hallucinations. Maybe they gave it to him too. I don't know enough about the substance to say for sure. I think he percieves himself as a Butcher in order to compensate for all the monsters he's killed in his dream state.


That's silly. Why would the cult capture him if he technically never did anything? How could the events be hallucinations if they make SH1 possible? Why would he perceive himself as the Butcher for killing imaginary monsters?

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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I would like to revive this thread to announce that, after playing through again recently and getting the Bad Ending this time, I would like to officially state that still don't have a motherfucking clue what the Bad Ending is about.

I do know that Travis is not PH, though. Word.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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The Butcher is his alter-ego, same as how Pyramid Head was James' alter ego in Silent Hill 2. After killing so many monsters, he comes to realize that fact, and remembers all the serial killings he committed earlier in his life due to the traumatizing events that happened surrounding his family.

As for the whole Order injecting him with a drug business...I always thought that was them executing him for his crimes. That part of the ending is left open for interpretation (very open), but I think any logical explanation is as good as any other.


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DamienPales wrote:
The Butcher is his alter-ego, same as how Pyramid Head was James' alter ego in Silent Hill 2. After killing so many monsters, he comes to realize that fact, and remembers all the serial killings he committed earlier in his life due to the traumatizing events that happened surrounding his family.

As for the whole Order injecting him with a drug business...I always thought that was them executing him for his crimes. That part of the ending is left open for interpretation (very open), but I think any logical explanation is as good as any other.


You write that with such authority but seriously - I don't see it. All we have is very, very loose conjecture; and while that's the staple of a SH fan's diet, this game has, without doubt, the most open, non-conclusive ending(s) I've seen. The only concrete thing we have is that NOTHING is concrete.

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Last edited by Vixx on 07 May 2009, edited 1 time in total.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Well, that's not the canonical ending, so of course it's going to be open to massive conjecture, the same way that the Bad Ending in SH1 is open to massive conjecture.

I think it's rather obvious that The Butcher is his alter-ego, at least according to that specific ending. You hear the screams of the people he's killing, so he has slaughtered them in the way you see the Butcher slaughtering those...whatever they are. There is no Lost Memories for Origins to 100% confirm this, but it's a pretty solid theory that I heard from someone else that I have yet to find a problem with.

The part about the Order injecting him is the cloudy part. I don't really have that "air of authority" for that part. Just come up with a logical explanation you like, and go with it.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 02 May 2009
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I doubt the order would use lethal injection as their means of execution, that's not nearly cruel and messy enough :)

Maybe that's how they make 'missionaries' though. Psychotropic drugs derived from White Claudia to turn someone into a mentally conditioned and obedient executioner.


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...Or psycho ward patients. That's what I would do anyway. They're easier to persuade to do your bidding than someone who addicted to drugs. At least from my experience that is...plus Leonard was doing just that when he was committed.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 02 May 2009
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Loveless_Dogg wrote:
...Or psycho ward patients. That's what I would do anyway. They're easier to persuade to do your bidding than someone who addicted to drugs. At least from my experience that is...plus Leonard was doing just that when he was committed.


Have a lot of experience training killers do we? :)

I'd think psycho ward patients would be the hardest people to control, for all the obvious reasons.

On the other hand you have things like Project MK-ULTRA.


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Missing since: 01 Mar 2004
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Well, maybe :p ...But I mean that Drug Addicts have a higher risk of turning on their "master" just so they can get their fix. Where mental patients I would imagine are capable of easily excepting the reality that they are given, so all you would need to say is, "Yes I too see that blue monkey raping your infant, now go show him what their insides look like" and they would obey.

But that's my take on it.

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Value your failures more than your successes. Successes only last until someone screws them up. Failures are forever. She left...and...I'm lost.


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Maybe that's how they make 'missionaries' though. Psychotropic drugs derived from White Claudia to turn someone into a mentally conditioned and obedient executioner.


Drugs had nothing to do with it. Missionaries were created by Claudia using her psychic powers to transfigure willing volunteers.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 02 May 2009
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The only thing we know for sure about missionaries is that they've been transfigured through the power of the cult. That part doesn't conflict with anything I've said. As for drugs not being a part of it, how do we know?

Anyhow I'm not going to fight real hard over this since I don't think there's enough evidence either way and bad ends don't make much sense anyway.


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