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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Seal of Megatron wrote:
Valtiel has a lot more to do with Silent Hill than just ensuring the birth of the god.
He's pretty much responsible for looking after the underworld, recycling souls, switching worlds and so on.
You do need powers to control the otherworld, otherwise you're just there for the ride.


Prove it. He's never been shown to do any of that stuff except the metempsychosis, and I'm on the opinion that the Valtiel seen in SH3 is a construct like everything else in the Otherworld. It is not a legitimate deity in control of the Otherworld unless you can prove otherwise.

Oh, you need powers to control the Otherworld? I guess I'll go tell that to James, Angela, Eddie, Laura, Mary, Ernest, those slew of people in mental asylums...

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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Missing since: 18 Feb 2008
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In what way do any of these people you mention control the otherworld?, if James had control, why the hell would he put himself through all that, he would just cut straight to the chase, why risk getting killed.
As for Valtiel not being a deity, well, you're wrong on so many levels there, I'm not going to go in to them here, there's hundreds of posts on it. Check the book of lost memories, it tells you what he is in there......unless lost memories is also wrong :roll:

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Technically Valtiel is an angel, which is not the same as a deity, but, being a parallel to Metatron, it is "the one closest to God." Everyone should read this if they haven't already because it is full of win.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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In what way do any of these people you mention control the otherworld?, if James had control, why the hell would he put himself through all that, he would just cut straight to the chase, why risk getting killed.


James does subconsciously wish to be killed/punished for his sins, and what everyone else who experience unique Otherworlds sees also subconsciously desire it. The control of the Otherworld doesn't have to be conscious. Usually, it's the subconscious or unconscious mind at work, just like a dream.

Do note, though, that this doesn't necessarily apply to SHO, SH1, SH3, or SH4, where the Otherworld is controlled by a single entity or a few entities, drawing in other people. SHO/SH1 has Alessa at the helm, SH3 has Heather/Claudia, and SH4 has Walter.

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As for Valtiel not being a deity, well, you're wrong on so many levels there, I'm not going to go in to them here, there's hundreds of posts on it. Check the book of lost memories, it tells you what he is in there......unless lost memories is also wrong


I just attacked Lost Memories' credibility in another thread. It's not 100% accurate even at the time it was published (though it was useful) and it's starting to go out of date.

Regardless, Valtiel is an angel in the cult's religion, and his nature aside, I find it likely that God, Valtiel, and similar entities are Monster/Maria-like constructs that are given existence by the religious beliefs of certain characters being reflected in the Otherworld.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
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>I just attacked Lost Memories' credibility in another thread.
Which I don't understand, because it's accurate and official information. If you're saying the book is mistaken, then you're saying the developers are mistaken and therefore nothing w/in the series can be taken truthfully because there could be other "mistakes."

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Which I don't understand, because it's accurate and official information. If you're saying the book is mistaken, then you're saying the developers are mistaken and therefore nothing w/in the series can be taken truthfully because there could be other "mistakes."


It's accurate and official, I'm just slightly distrustful of the translation. I remember it being commented on you yourself before, and while I don't remember what you commented on specifically, I remember it was significant enough to prevent me from taking Translated Memories as unshakable biblical authority. But regardless, the thing he's trying to use Translated Memories for is wrong.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Well, the Web site Translated Memories isn't the same as the book "Silent Hill Chronicle." Unfortunately, people have become so acclimated w/ using the terms Translated Memories, "Silent Hill Chronicle" and Lost Memories interchangeably that I can't distinguish the difference, nor do most people even understand that there is one.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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I must've gotten the terms mixed up in my head. I know what they both are, but I read the post like...a year ago, so I don't remember which one you said. For reference, can you restate your thoughts on the canonical basis of both documents, just to set me straight?

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Missing since: 18 Feb 2008
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What i'm using translated memories for is not wrong, it tells you he is an angel, and that's what he is.
And how can it possibly be out of date?, the people who made the game wrote the book, it's not as if they are going to look at it and say "shit, what we wrote in that book is wrong, and out of date, best if we just write it again.....maybe a certain individual :P on Silent Hill Heaven can proof read it for us"
Seriously though, it probably has got mistakes in it, so do the games, you've just got to bite the bullet and put your trust in something, it's all we've got.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 18 Mar 2008
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You're right Megatron. If we could all agree on the validity/authenticity/translation of Translated Memories, we could probably answer a few more questions here...

Then again, I understand that accepting a broken translation as canon could present a few problems.

If you ask me, though, we shouldn't need a book to get our answers if we look hard enough at the games themselves. I don't think anything was added to Silent Hill Chronicle that wasn't part of the idea in the first place. There will always be people who deny the translation, though, and I wish that wasn't the case because it's a really good read, especially the part about the wheel of fortune-- reminds me of Boethius.

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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 25 Sep 2004
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it is entirely possible the writers didn't know exactly what they were talking about or the translation is more in tune with a transliteration, which isn't a carbon copy of the words presented, rather what the translator understood. Also it is entirely possible they can retcon events. This is japan after all, one my favorite series, Gundam, has had over 30 published bibles and each one conflicts with each other, it is best to just take the facts from the games as the most official and acceptable source and from there use other sources to provide backup.

sorry for the offtopicness, I just wanted to put in my expirence dealing with source material and canon, when it was brought up.

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Historical Society Historian
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...Why is Pyramid Head seemingly involved in every full- or half-assed theory in every single Silent Hill title ever? Even the ones that predate James? Sheesh.

I really wish Konami WOULD validate/debunk Translated Memories for us, it would make a lot of things much clearer, I think, and end a lot of repetitive debates.

I can honestly say I don't understand this ending. What I do agree with is that Pyramid Head isn't involved, that James isn't involved, that it's a cultist to the right of screen in the last scene, and that it's quite possible he's metamorphosing into The Butcher, either via Cult/town interference or due to the trauma of his own mental scars and past.

I think it's fairly obvious (in my own mind, anyway) that the good ending is canon, since it's a prelude to Silent Hill 1, and that the bad ending is just a deliberately ambiguous mental screwjob, a sort of mental bone for us to scrap over and gnaw on.

I think it's a really interesting ending, no matter how confusing it is. I liked it.


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Just Passing Through
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This is japan after all, one my favorite series, Gundam, has had over 30 published bibles and each one conflicts with each other,


On the other hand, Silent Hill Chronicles/Translated Memories is the only source material considered by many to be canon outside of strictly game content (at least, as far as I know). That's, of course, ignoring the comic books, which I don't know are official. Silent Hill Chronicles is definitely official, it's just that the translation (or transliteration, as you put it) isn't supported by Konami.

You know, I've noticed these days that many of the members appear to have grown tired with arguments pertaining to literature or the movie because it's the same shit over and over. People are interested in the facts. Facts, by the way, are defined as something AS FAR REMOVED AS POSSIBLE from reasonable doubt or scrutiny. This is why I made my rant about using the game endings to determine truths/facts about Silent Hill.

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...it is best to just take the facts from the games as the most official and acceptable source and from there use other sources to provide backup.


Agreed. 100%. So long as people remember what is the definition of "Fact"... I feel like there is going to be a divide among SH lovers; there will be those who believe that Translated Memories is canon (Blue Halo of the Sun!) and those who don't (Red Halo of the Sun!). Likewise with those who draw facts from the endings and those who feel that doing so is illogical/counterintuitive.

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Also it is entirely possible they can retcon events.

They can what? :?

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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 25 Sep 2004
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retconning is best seen in star wars a new hope 1999 edition when george lucas made greedo shoot first at solo, when it fact solo shot first back in the 1977 masterpiece.

I also laughed at the pyramid head/travis whole thing, no offense but those were pretty far out there even as far as theories go.


The only thing I want to add in to this is after seeing the bad ending a few more times on youtube I'm almost 100% positive travis is in a straight jacket when the mirror shows his reflection and that the travis we see is in the otherworld. Perhaps he was in an insane asylum and that this was all in his head. And no doubt in my mind he turns into the butcher, that is, he never defeated it. Let's say for the sake of argument that he "quit" the game shortly before it even started.

I'm only going with the good ending as the "true" ending anyways since it leads in pretty well with silent hill 1.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 18 Jul 2004
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They can what?


Retroactive continuity is when the storyline or information (the continuity, hence the term 'retcon') pertaining to a series is changed officially by the sources who created it, to better fit in with a new story arc. In the process, the old canon is usually disregarded to fit in with the new.

For example, if in a TV show, a character was initially eighteen, creators might want to change it to sixteen for whatever reason, so any prior mention of the character's age is ignored, and the character henceforth is referred to as sixteen.

I couldn't think of a less confusing example, sorry.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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What i'm using translated memories for is not wrong, it tells you he is an angel, and that's what he is.


You said he was a god before.

Quote:
Then again, I understand that accepting a broken translation as canon could present a few problems.


As I said, it was the translation my trust is shaky in, along with the fact that it doesn't cover anything past three, so I'm hesitant to use it for matters that cross over with newer games, like Origins/1 characters.

I like reading it, and it's informative, but I'm not going to blindly follow it if something's suspect.

On the subject of retcon, think of the Mario games. At first, the two plumbers got to the Mushroom Kingdom from Brooklyn through a pipe, but it has since been retconned in that they were literally born and raised in the Mushroom Kingdom, and that they've been protecting the princess since diapers.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>Silent Hill Chronicles/Translated Memories is the only source material considered by many to be canon outside of strictly game content

The Web site Translated Memories is not the same as the book "Silent Hill Chronicle," however. That's the problem. It's a translation w/ several notable errors and incorrect inferences due to the translator(s). It's not their fault, by any means, but it's not The Bible people make it out to be. You can question the Web site all you want, but you cannot question the book--it is as official as in-game information and therefore not to be disregarded.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 18 Mar 2008
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Well, these days we don't use the term 'canon' as strictly as one would in reference to the Bible, but that's neither here nor there. On the subject of retconning(?), it's entirely possible that facts have changed, but I'm waiting for Konami to release a statement or a new book which illustrates those changes.

I know we can't call "Silent Hill Chronicle" the same book as "Translated Memories," for many, many reason, the main one being it's a transliteration; but one can certainly hope they release something more official, in English, one day in the near future. Maybe we should petition? :)

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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They made a book regarding Silent Hill 4: The Room, it just hasn't been translated and posted online.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Brookhaven Receptionist
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Missing since: 10 Apr 2006
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As for the ending of Origins the bad ending, isn't it possible that both endings are Cannon. I mean look at Travis,he's an emotional wreck and very mentally disturbed by his past.. most children who suffer trauma like that are disturbed.. so it's possible that both endings are cannon.. but only one directly connects to sh1 story wise.

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