A good Butchter-Theory

[Jonipoon]

>Damn Quotes!!! I said my bit right before you. You really dont need to quote every word of it. Next time say you piece and move on!

There's no need to overreact. If Aura prefer to quote every word, s/he has the fully right to do so. Every member does what feels most comfortable for themselves, you have to accept that.

[AuraTwilight]

I like referring to specific parts of a post so that my thoughts aren't confused or misconstrued by other posters. If you don't like it, tough shit. The quote boxes aren't eating your baby or jacking your stuff.

[kennsj]

In the bad ending:

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You see Travis kneeling on the ground and they flash between Travis as himself and Travis as the Butcher. Through the game you find notes on PTSD and how people's minds fracture into two identities, a kind one who doesn't remember and a dark and violent one who usually emerges teh victor as they 'battle' each other to posess the body. By the bad end, it's the good side of Travis who is trapped and the dark side that gains control.

An alternate reading of the bad ending, also relating to the Travis/Butcher dualism:

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We see Travis collapse as he realises what he's actually been doing, or more specificially who he's actually been killing throughout the events of the game. We then see him strapped to a bed in the hospital/sanitorium, with visual and audio flashbacks to all the murders he's committed since arriving in Silent Hill. He sees himself as the Butcher in these flashbacks. Finally, we see a syringe of whatever meds they have Travis on. He's being held as criminally insane, we can assume.

[David01]

That conclusion makes sense to me, but it could also be that Travis fantisized about killing people. I mean perhaps he only thought of doing such things, but never actually killed anyone. Kind of like that movie American Psycho Where at the end of the movie, you're left wondering if the dude actually killed anyone at all.. because the people he thought he killed were all very much still alive.

Anyway, that's what I think happened with ol' Travis here, he wanted to kill people, dreamed of doing it, thought of doing it.. fantisized about doing it.. however I do not believe that he actually killed anyone. It's all in his head, and a pure fantasy, at least that's how I see it.

[AgentNein]

Please consult chapter 3: Manifestations of Delusions, found both in Silent Hill 1 and Silent Hill: Origins, and also "Silent Hill Koshiki Guidebook Kanzenban."Chronicle."

Excuse me for saying that I think these books are the worst thing to happen to Silent Hill.

Why do you think that David Lynch never does any commentaries for his movies? Because when you give away the ambiguities of something (like SH) that absolutely thrives on ambiguity, you ruin it. Suddely people aren't debating the possibilities, they're instead pointing towards a book or something or other that was made by the creators, and quashing all other possible interpretations.

It's simply sad, and kills the mystery. I for one would love it if no one declared these guidebooks as the end-all-be-all authority on what's really going on in Silent Hill. The idea alone is ludicrous when you consider the context; that we're saying there is a definitive cemented right-and-wrong in a structure of fiction, but outside of the actual structure (not in-game).

[amphreded]

I understand what you mean, AgentNein, but since they're there already and we cannot deny the validity of those references.
There are still plenty of mysteries in Silent Hill not recorded on external guidebooks though.

[kennsj]

Please consult chapter 3: Manifestations of Delusions, found both in Silent Hill 1 and Silent Hill: Origins, and also "Silent Hill Koshiki Guidebook Kanzenban."

Q: Where did the monsters come from?
A: They were born from Alessa's obsessions and compulsions.
Mysterious monsters roam the deserted town, the same creatures that appear in Alessa's nightmares. Related to phenomena in her memories, they are materialized by stress, pressure, an anxious state of mind, and the like. For example, the pterosaur-type monsters found throughout town were brought forth from an illustration in one of Alessa's favorite books, The Lost World. The green caterpillar and moth monsters came from the insect specimens that decorate her room. Her sense of trivial things that looked strange to her as a child became reality, along with the objects of her fears.

The [otherside] is Alessa's creation. I would recommend consulting the book "Silent Hill Chronicle."

Alright. This relates to SH1 specifically, and the otherworld in general. The "stress, pressure, an anxious state of mind, and the like" do not necessarily have to be Alessa's. In fact, it's a lot more likely that the state of mind which creates these manifestations, based on images in Alessa's memory, is the player character's. So Alessa isn't necessarily the sole creator of the otherworld. It's potentially a team effort.

That conclusion makes sense to me, but it could also be that Travis fantisized about killing people. I mean perhaps he only thought of doing such things, but never actually killed anyone.

Possible, but I personally don't think it's likely.

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The woman in Travis' auditory psychotic flashbacks in the bad ending says "I'm not your mommy, young man." or similar. Then she screams a death cry. There's also the unnamed male character who says the motel is closed for the season, or some such. These seem to be pretty concrete memories, indicating that Travis murdered these people, seeing them as monsters no doubt.

Goes back to Vincent's remark to Heather in SH3... "Oh, do they look like monsters to you?" Playing with that concept again.

[The Adversary]

>So Alessa isn't the sole creator of the otherworld.
She is according to the creators. It was her power that caused the otherworld to be experienced by other people, such as James. Suggesting that the otherworld manifested itself via Travis' memories creates a plot hole, because the otherworld simply wasn't "there" as it is in Silent Hill 2.

[kennsj]

In fact, it's a lot more likely that the state of mind which creates these manifestations, based on images in Alessa's memory, is the player character's.

Alessa's memories, not Travis'. His emotions to trigger the manifestations is all I was saying. I based my comments soundly on the same quote upon which you based yours.

[Breaka]

Excuse me for saying that I think these books are the worst thing to happen to Silent Hill.

Amen bro!

[AuraTwilight]

That conclusion makes sense to me, but it could also be that Travis fantisized about killing people. I mean perhaps he only thought of doing such things, but never actually killed anyone.

Possible, but I personally don't think it's likely.

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The woman in Travis' auditory psychotic flashbacks in the bad ending says "I'm not your mommy, young man." or similar. Then she screams a death cry. There's also the unnamed male character who says the motel is closed for the season, or some such. These seem to be pretty concrete memories, indicating that Travis murdered these people, seeing them as monsters no doubt.

Goes back to Vincent's remark to Heather in SH3... "Oh, do they look like monsters to you?" Playing with that concept again.

He could just be fantasizing. And if Travis saw people as monsters, he wouldn't have that dialogue to remember anyway.

She is according to the creators. It was her power that caused the otherworld to be experienced by other people, such as James. Suggesting that the otherworld manifested itself via Travis' memories creates a plot hole, because the otherworld simply wasn't "there" as it is in Silent Hill 2.

But wait, I thought the Otherworld was always there. The timeline, along with the fates of some backround characters, along with your own word, seem to be the case. Last I heard, Alessa merely altered the Otherworld's nature.

[kennsj]

He could just be fantasizing. And if Travis saw people as monsters, he wouldn't have that dialogue to remember anyway.

In the movie Memento, the main character suffers from amnesia, and tattoos clues to his wife's murder on his own body as he finds them. Some of the clues are lies he tells himself though, to hide the truth that...

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...he is actually his wife's killer.

I think Travis seeing monsters instead of people is the same kind of lie (except that it's complicated by Alessa's power making it seem very real). Hearing the accurate dialogue from those people he killed is just him realising the truth of what occured. In the case of the "bad" ending, we have played through the lie, through Travis' delusion (given reality by Alessa).

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, but most of the monsters being humans is impossible. Just LOOK. And you don't think a massacare of that level wouldn't get some news in later games or something?

Besides, if his own MOTHER AND FATHER weren't real, I doubt ANY monster he sees are. And his mother is still alive, so them being dead is no goddamned excuse. If he killed anyone, it'd have to be people he killed outside of Silent Hill on the road, but that's still a stupid theory for a shitload of reasons. Travis isn't a killer.

[Detective Cartland]

^
Exactly, the Silent Hill Police in reality would take his ass down.

[kennsj]

Yea, but most of the monsters being humans is impossible.

Did I ever say "most of the monsters"? To fit into my theory relating to the bad ending, Travis only has to have killed two actual people - the woman he mistakes for his mother (or her monstrous manifestation), and the motel manager.

And his mother is still alive, so them being dead is no goddamned excuse.

This is beside the point, but it's not mentioned ingame as to whether she's dead or alive, is it?

Please share your theories on where those voices come from. Surely not from Travis' fantasies about killing complete strangers. The idea that he killed the people in his flashbacks somewhere other than Silent Hill doesn't hold water either, as you mentioned, Aura, because of the voice of the motel manager.

So, based on the evidence, and trying perhaps to take the Butcher into account, where else could those dying statements in Travis' flashbacks in the bad ending come from, if not from the mouths of people he has killed?

[AuraTwilight]

Did I ever say "most of the monsters"? To fit into my theory relating to the bad ending, Travis only has to have killed two actual people - the woman he mistakes for his mother (or her monstrous manifestation), and the motel manager.

You said that the monsters he saw could've been humans. You didn't specify if it was all of them, some of them, or what. Anyway, Travis doesn't kill anyone within the span of the game, that's pretty much a fact because anything else is fucktarded. If he's a murderer, it's all in his backstory.

This is beside the point, but it's not mentioned ingame as to whether she's dead or alive, is it?

Dude, she's alive. Lisa is right there crying for her sad fate. "Lisa, who's beyond this door?" "YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW? AUGHHHH T_T"

Ring a bell?

Please share your theories on where those voices come from. Surely not from Travis' fantasies about killing complete strangers. The idea that he killed the people in his flashbacks somewhere other than Silent Hill doesn't hold water either, as you mentioned, Aura, because of the voice of the motel manager.

I don't see any proof that it's the voice of the motel manager. Lots of minor character voices are reused, and even still, he could've killed the manager before he got there. It doesn't matter.

I personally don't believe the bad ending is canon, but if it were, the voices are probably delusional. There's lots-better explanations for the Butcher, Travis's darkside, and all related topics, as I think I've covered numerous times.

So, based on the evidence, and trying perhaps to take the Butcher into account, where else could those dying statements in Travis' flashbacks in the bad ending come from, if not from the mouths of people he has killed?

His imagination. It's not like SH characters haven't made up entire PEOPLE before, voices should be easy.

[David01]

Again, I only think Travis fantisized about killing people, I do not believe that he actually killed anyone. Just like that movie American psycho Where the dude only thought he killed all the people he did.

I believe Travis was only fantisizing about killing, it was all in his mind as I've said before. Of course there is a small possibility that he did in fact kill someone, but it's only very small.

[kennsj]

All this talk of "fantasizing" is pure speculation though, not based on anything we actually see or hear in the game or in the bad ending (which, by the way, I don't think is "canon" either, but it's still worth discussing).

Strapped to a bed, being pumped full of drugs, I would not be fantasising about killing some random woman or some guy who works at a motel. I might fantasise about killing whoever's keeping me strapped down and drugged up, but not random townsfolk.

Another reasonable explanation might be that The Order are punishing Travis for his interference by drugging him so that he has visions of himself committing murders as opposed to having just killed monsters, but the whole murder fantasy deal just has nothing concrete backing it up.

Dude, she's alive. Lisa is right there crying for her sad fate. "Lisa, who's beyond this door?" "YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW? AUGHHHH T_T"

Ring a bell?

Doesn't necessarily mean she's alive. If Travis' mother were literally alive and physically beyond that door, she's the only patient of the sanitorium, and she's a monster.

I personally think she's in that room just the same way Richard's in Room 500. Neither of them are literally there.

[Breaka]

Agreed. The bad ending is just an alternate ending. Were any of that true of relevant I'm sure they would have put it in the story of the game. But they didn't, so it isn't, so...

[Detective Cartland]

Its obvious that the Bad ending is not canon, since if Travis never had the good ending, Harry would never have had Cheryl, or we would never see Travis in Homecoming.