A Comprehensive Theory/Explanation Of Silent Hill: Origins

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Droo
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Post by Droo »

Could have, but somewhat unlikely.

SH3 seemed to do everything it could to dispel the conception that Samael was a figure in the religion at all.
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Post by The Adversary »

The issue isn't that Samael is somehow connected to The Order. On the contrary, it's that opponents of the The Order consider the god the devil, or: Samael. Really, nothing has changed--except that now when fans call the god "Samael" there doesn't have to be someone to reply to them w/ "Samael doesn't exist" (and that makes my life in the Silent Hill community three words easier).
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Post by Rob Matter »

Whether or not “Samael” exists is--and always has been--a sheer matter of semantics, and I must express my disdain that some individuals repeatedly choose to get worked up and pushy about it.
Drewfus wrote:Yet another reason to loathe and revile Origins.

Glorified fan fiction masquerading as canon.
Some could benefit to have shattered their narrow, dogmatic interpretation of the series hitherto.
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Post by Droo »

Not sure if you're referring to me or not, but:

I don't mind having my interpretation of prior events shattered if it's done well. The Metal Gear series is a good example of turning everything on its head but it does it in a compelling, challenging way.

On the other hand, the inconsistencies of Origins seem to fall in the area of slapdash retcon, rather than insightful and clever revelations.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Some guy opposing the cult calling the God "Samael" doesn't mean it's actually what it's called. You'll have a hard time convincing anyone sane that Allah is really "Satan."
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by The Adversary »

No shit.

We're talking terminology here.
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Post by Rob Matter »

AuraTwilight wrote:Some guy opposing the cult calling the God "Samael" doesn't mean it's actually what it's called. You'll have a hard time convincing anyone sane that Allah is really "Satan."
What exactly gives the group calling it “God” the authority on the matter? Who's to say what its "one true" name is, or what it's "actually" called, as you say? Why is it unacceptable to have multiple names?

It’s all relative. It's not as if the deity introduces himself to the audience by name.
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Post by Droo »

Well, if we REALLY want to get mired in technicalities, names do not actually exist. They are labels, created entirely by language, used as a point of reference to define an object/person/entity we are speaking of. A name does not define the substance or nature of an object in and of itself outside of the social meaning we apply to it.

Thus, I suppose someone could call the God of The Order Bob if they wanted to, and if people agreed upon this name, it would become as such.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

No shit.

We're talking terminology here.
We weren't before you jumped in. Get over yourself.
What exactly gives the group calling it “God” the authority on the matter? Who's to say what its "one true" name is, or what it's "actually" called, as you say? Why is it unacceptable to have multiple names?

It’s all relative. It's not as if the deity introduces himself to the audience by name.
This is true, but if someone is naming an entity that didn't bother to name itself, I would give that right to the people who gave birth to it. ;)
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Post by The Adversary »

>We weren't before you jumped in.
Because you consistently say the wrong thing.

There actually is a Samael character in the Silent Hill series, it's just not god (Lord of Serpents and Reeds, Creator of Paradise).

>Get over yourself.
Go write something of your own.
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Post by Harrys_Girl »

Ok, I know this will ruffle a couple of feathers here, but why would the Order pick a name inwhich to call there god,Samael, if that is so close to the popular name of an ArcAngel, Sameal. Sameal, according to the Angelic Scripts, is the ruler of the 5th heaven and the planet Mars. He is representative of the zodiac signs Aries and Scorpio. At his command is the positive spirit, Graphiel and the demon or negative spirit, Barzabel and is representative of the seal of Phaleg, the war-lord.

In Nowhere, Phaleg is the last door you must go through that requires a speacial key, inorder to get to the final fight. And is the seal of the war-lord. I do not think it is just happenstance that the seal of the war-lord is on the last dorr before the biggest fight of the game. And at that, I do not think it is happenstance that The Order picked a name so close to a Chritian Angel that is based as a central war-like figure.

I believe they chose to call their god this, in order to strike fear into their opponents. Just like Lucifer Monringstar, a leading war-lord angel gets his own following.
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Post by The Adversary »

The Order doesn't call their god "Samael". . . .

And Lucifer is Jesus.
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Post by David01 »

It's all a matter of interpretation. I mean everyone has their own view of things, and perhaps who ever wrote that memo in Origins, was perhaps just a fanatic of the cult, someone who didn't really follow the beliefs of the cult.. but yet made up their own beliefs. Kind of like modern religion does, you know every religion sculps their particular religion the way they want people to interpret it.. it isn't neccesarily the truth of the religion.. but merely some one's opinion of it.. or interpretation of it.


Also if you all remember, at the end of sh1.. the demon we fought when Kaufman tossed the red liquid was the demon known as "Samael " At least i think that's what it was called.

A good example of interpretation is.. the Jewish people and the Christian faith. In Christian faith the Christians are waiting for Jesus to return one day and save us all. In the Jewish faith.. Jesus hasn't even been born.. the savior hasn't come yet.

So it's all a matter of interpretation.. so to say one person is right and another is wrong.. is bogus because none of us really know who is right and who is wrong.. we all just believe what we want to believe based on whatever faith we choose to follow or not follow.

I believe that the order and cults.. and opponents of that cult in the silent hill series.. is kinda the same way.. they all have different views of what the god is called.. or is.. or whatever. Just like there are different sects of the order.. such a sthe sect of the holy mother, and father of god sort of speak.

I believe that's the difference here. And really a minor thing like calling the god samael is a very minor thing.. and doesnt really take away from the general storyline of the series.. unless of course you're a fanatic fan like us. That picks apart every tiny little detail.
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Post by The Adversary »

>was the demon known as "Samael "
See, that's the problem. That's what started this back in '99. Everyone assumed that was "Samael" because Dahlia used the term Mark of Samael. Silent Hill 3 dispels the idea that the sigil has anything to do w/ The Order's god, but rather is for the "one closest to god"--which is, in The Order's case, Valtiel.

I wrote an essay about it called "Valtiel & Metatron."
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Post by Rob Matter »

SYNCRETIC RELIGIONS
...
(There is also one rare example of the chief deity, 'Creator of
Paradise' or 'Lord of Serpents and Reeds', being dubbed with a
demons name of course, this was not done by believers but by
their opponents.)
This seems to aimed directly at the notion that God (not Metatron) was called "Samael" by rival groups, a direct response to Dahlia’s comments in SH1. Why else would they have included this in SH3?

If Valtiel is Metatron, why would Alessa attempt use Metatron’s power against Metatron’s master deity in SH1? Clearly, we see Valtiel attempting to nurture and safeguard the God in SH3.

As for Samael = Metatron, I believe this idea rests on an extra-SH factoid about Judeo-Christian theology, and not on any in-game evidence.

I believe that when Dahlia calls the Virun VII crest the “Mark of Samael,” she is not merely using a negative name for the deity of the crest, but attributing it to a different deity entirely—the God instead of Metatron. In other words, I don’t believe anyone has referred to Metatron as Samael; only God has received such slander.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Because you consistently say the wrong thing.

There actually is a Samael character in the Silent Hill series, it's just not god (Lord of Serpents and Reeds, Creator of Paradise).
Nein.
Go write something of your own.
Heh.
This seems to aimed directly at the notion that God (not Metatron) was called "Samael" by rival groups, a direct response to Dahlia’s comments in SH1. Why else would they have included this in SH3?

If Valtiel is Metatron, why would Alessa attempt use Metatron’s power against Metatron’s master deity in SH1? Clearly, we see Valtiel attempting to nurture and safeguard the God in SH3.

As for Samael = Metatron, I believe this idea rests on an extra-SH factoid about Judeo-Christian theology, and not on any in-game evidence.

I believe that when Dahlia calls the Virun VII crest the “Mark of Samael,” she is not merely using a negative name for the deity of the crest, but attributing it to a different deity entirely—the God instead of Metatron. In other words, I don’t believe anyone has referred to Metatron as Samael; only God has received such slander.
Quoted for emphasis.
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Post by The Adversary »

>why would Alessa attempt use Metatron’s power against Metatron’s master deity in SH1?
She doesn't. Alessa uses a sigil named after an entity whose power is unparalleled. It's all discussed in the thread I've linked.

>Heh.
Laugh all you want. We know better.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Laugh all you want. We know better.
Whatever.
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Post by Droo »

I should be stopping this, but part of me wants to watch you two fight to the death. :P
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Post by Rob Matter »

Mockingbird wrote:>why would Alessa attempt use Metatron’s power against Metatron’s master deity in SH1?
She doesn't. Alessa uses a sigil named after an entity whose power is unparalleled. It's all discussed in the thread I've linked.
I've read the other topic; it's well written.

Just to clarify, you're arguing that the Seal of Metatron, although named after Metatron, and tatooed to Metatron's (Valtiel's, as you argue) arm, is not of Metatron proper? In other words, the Seal doesn't actually invoke the power of Metatron himself?

It's reasonable, although anti-Occam.
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