''What are you doing, son?!''

Truck drivin' Travis detours into Silent Hill. Tree Top Tall & Wall-to-Wall, Good Buddy.

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GrievousGarland

Post by GrievousGarland »

It could be either of those things... the "bad ending" is so vague anyway. :?
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woofy
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Post by woofy »

Yes, I guess that's why they leave it vague. In that sense, it is a real Silent Hill game :lol:
Because of the amount of little evidence, they leave it for fans to fight over.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

so the secret about himself is... he has a darkside? Bad thoughts? Most everyone does. There isn't any reason for silent hill to try to make him see that, it's a given for most people. The idea that he's been suppressing memories of murders is however much more gruesome and terrible.
Not everyone has a split personality with homicidal urges it wants to act on, though. Besides, whichever theory is correct, Travis clearly denied any darkness in his heart and pretended to be a perfect, clean, altruistic person with no selfish motives. That's not healthy, and it is a lie. Silent Hill has every reason to show this to him because Silent Hill brings up thoughts you buried, no matter how evil or harmless.
well, they put the note in anyway. It isn't an obvious fact that he has been killing people, but there isn't anything there to disprove it. The letter was meant to hint at something and saying that "it's just an hallucination" doesn't fly in SH. If the butcher was just a representation of Travis's darkside then others should not have been able to see it. It should not have even existed till Travis walked into the town, yet someone was able to refer to it by name long before that.
The Butcher is probably more than a representation of Travis' dark side. Unless you think Travis metamorphed into a big Butcher monster when he was a kid and started cutting people up while a guy wrote a letter.

IMO, some guy imagined his own Butcher monster for whatever reason. That thought is recorded in the Otherworld as that letter. Later Travis enters, and his secret murders/homicidal fantasies/self loathing/whatever takes the image of the Butcher for itself so it manifests. Now not only does the Butcher represent what it meant for that guy, but it also represents Travis' Shadow Archetype. No matter how Travis deals with the Butcher, it's presence as a thoughtform is recorded. Then James comes into town with his own Shadow and self-loathing and suicidal tendencies and buried past, and so his Shadow Archetype needs a symbol. It then absorbs the Butcher thoughtform along with a memory of James seeing a certain painting, and Pyramid Head is born. However James deals with the Pyramid Head, it's existence as his Shadow is recorded. Then Shepherd's Glenn is wrapped in paranoia and fear, and it's people fear the Bogeyman, who has a resemblance to Pyramid Head, and most of them have Shadows to deal with...absorbing the right emotional data, and the Bogeyman is born.
My conclusion: "The Butcher" that the man in the theater is referring to is the press given name to an infamous serial killer that's deeds have been reported/televised (*cough* travis *cough*). That's why the man was able to put a name to what he saw.
Pfft, yea right. Even if someone did see Travis killing people, which is silly, everything in the Theatre is taken from Alessa's mind. Besides, Travis hasn't even been back to Silent Hill since he was a kid, he couldn't of been killing in that theatre.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by cedar grove »

the butcher could symbolising his dad because his dad never cared for travis, but waseent homicidal he was suicidel still killing yourself when travis is playing pinball(it seems like he knows his dad is going to do something) is very cruel(like the butcher is cruel to monsters/travis)
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Post by GrievousGarland »

I just don't agree with you Aura. Travis could have easily returned to SH before the events of this game and repressed the memory of it.

and your theory of what the butcher is very hard to believe, at least for me. But it is just your opinion as my ideas are mine.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

the butcher could symbolising his dad because his dad never cared for travis, but waseent homicidal he was suicidel still killing yourself when travis is playing pinball(it seems like he knows his dad is going to do something) is very cruel(like the butcher is cruel to monsters/travis)
1) Learn grammar.
2) Um...Travis's Dad represents his dad. You know, the boss monster?
I just don't agree with you Aura. Travis could have easily returned to SH before the events of this game and repressed the memory of it.
It's made pretty clear early in the game that Travis avoids Silent Hill unless it's absolutely necessary, and even if he has to pass through it, he gets out as soon as possible. I don't think he's allow himself the time to kill a few people.
and your theory of what the butcher is very hard to believe, at least for me. But it is just your opinion as my ideas are mine.
My theory fits the facts a hell of a lot better than the "Travis is a killer" theory.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
GrievousGarland

Post by GrievousGarland »

Well, whatever you think Aura. I just disagree. I think my idea fits much better. >.>

and his "good" mentality might avoid Silent Hill, but his perverse other personality might not. You, yourself believe in his split personas don't you? Why would his bad side want to keep him away from Silent Hill too?
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Re: ''What are you doing, son?!''

Post by Revolverhawk »

PartyHard wrote:SPOILERS follow


As it's known, we can hear three lines during the Bad Ending:
PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:
Woman: What are you talking about? I'm not your mamma. Please...No!
Man: Scuse me sir. Motel's closed for the season. Wait..! (screams).
Richard: What are you doing, son? Careful, daddy's..!
-The first one by the Woman is pretty clear; it implies Travis attacked the woman for reminding him of his mother. So much that he called her 'mama', just like he addresses to the Memory of Helen.

Now, the other two by the Man and Richard are more vague. I can't really tell what supposedly occurred exactly and why.

-For the second one, spoken by the Man, I have a speculation. At the theater, you find a memo by the director:
Since what happened to Tony. I've
dreamt about HIM more and more!
THE BUTCHER!

He looks just like that monster, the
executioner!

Now I've seen him when I'm
awake. He's at my motel! It's HIM I
swear it!
For the record, Tony got the nosebleed accident before Alessa got burned. I wonder if the 'him' that the director talks about in his memo is Travis, making a stop at Silent Hill. Hence the memo and the 'flashback', both about something wicked at the Motel.

-The last one, spoken by Richard, is the most confusing to me. He sounds like he sees Travis being scary. Is he seeing the 'devil child' in his son that Helen always did? Is he being attacked by him in reality?
In order: The first line is Travis killing a woman in the asylum. He mistakes the woman for his mother. You only THINK you are fighting monster.

Second line is Travis killing someone in the motel. He encounters a staff member, thinks they are a monster, and kills them.

Third line is very straightforward: Travis actually killed his dad. His dad did not hang himself. Travis killed him, then hung him. He was never charged because he is a kid, and the police just assumed it was a suicide.

For crying out loud, his mother says she can "see the devil in him." She tried to kill him because of it. that's pretty straightforward.

The bad ending implies that Travis IS the Butcher. MOREOVER, it has been implied that Travis and Alex Shepard were in the same asylum. It's mentioned somewhere in the game homecoming that the patient scheduled for a lobotomy had discussions with another patient. Earlier, when Alex initally gets off the table, we see Alex resuced by some guy with a knife who royally F*cks up the doc who was gonna cut his head open. Who rescues Alex? I think the logical conclusion is that Travis was in the same asylum, and carved up the doc after breaking free.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

and his "good" mentality might avoid Silent Hill, but his perverse other personality might not. You, yourself believe in his split personas don't you? Why would his bad side want to keep him away from Silent Hill too?
I don't believe the bad personality ever really took over. It doesn't seem developed enough for that, and, to me, it seems implied that they're not in a relationships where the personalities can switch, but only one can be in control ever. The Butcher seems like he'd need to kill Travis to get the body.

But then of course the bad personality would probably want to avoid Silent Hill for the same reasons; it doesn't like being there any more than Travis.
Third line is very straightforward: Travis actually killed his dad. His dad did not hang himself. Travis killed him, then hung him. He was never charged because he is a kid, and the police just assumed it was a suicide.
That's ridiculously stupid, I'm sorry. Not only do we get a direct flashback where the truth of the incident is revealed, but "Dad" even tells him that Travis just stood and stared. Not murdered, just stared. If Travis was responsible, he'd be institutionalized or put with a group home or something. They wouldn't just let him walk off like that.

Also, even assuming that Mister Grady didn't put up a fight (because there's no way in hell otherwise that an 11 year old is taking down a full-grown, healthy adult and then hanging them from the ceiling no problem), but, you know, they'd no it was him because there'd be his fingerprints, signs of a struggle, they'd realize he didn't die from aphyxiation, etc...
For crying out loud, his mother says she can "see the devil in him." She tried to kill him because of it. that's pretty straightforward.
Mrs. Grady was also batfuck insane and thought that she could talk to people in mirrors and that the real world was an illusion that she was only visiting from time to time. I don't think her word is reliable for anything other than "Wow, what a psychotic, emotionally abusive ****."
The bad ending implies that Travis IS the Butcher. MOREOVER, it has been implied that Travis and Alex Shepard were in the same asylum. It's mentioned somewhere in the game homecoming that the patient scheduled for a lobotomy had discussions with another patient.
I'm sure Travis and Alex weren't the only people in the asylum, and moreover, if they were in the same asylum at the same time, how the fuck did Travis get a delivery truck exactly like the one he had? They confiscate your keys and crap, you know.
Earlier, when Alex initally gets off the table, we see Alex resuced by some guy with a knife who royally F*cks up the doc who was gonna cut his head open. Who rescues Alex? I think the logical conclusion is that Travis was in the same asylum, and carved up the doc after breaking free.
did you see how fucking huge the knife was and how it scrapped? It was the Bogeyman AKA Pyramid Head.
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Post by Revolverhawk »

I'll agree with your assessment that it would be hard for an 11 year old to do. But what other interpretation can you offer for those words? Mrs. Grady did think she could talk to people in mirrors and that the real world was an illusion. But you can't assume she was wrong based on what we have seen of silent hill. The residual energy of dead people like ernest baldwin may have communicated to her through mirrors or something. As for confiscating one's keys, I suppose Travis simply figured out where they kept his keys and took them.

What I'm saying is this: pretty much all of Silent Hill is a stretch. You can't even explain half the shit that happens in the games by saying it's a hallucination. Take SH2 for example: If Maria was a hallucination, then how did she open the back door to the Strip Club?

SH4 pretty much threw the idea that Silent Hill is all hallucinations out the window. So to say that Mrs. Grady is totally wrong because she believes these things are real is a bit off.

That said: How do you explain the last line from Travis' Father?

Woman: What are you talking about? I'm not your mamma. Please...No!
Man: Scuse me sir. Motel's closed for the season. Wait..! (screams).
Richard: What are you doing, son? Careful, daddy's..!

Why ask what he is doing? Why say "careful?" it does heavily imply that he did something to his dad...

lastly, the Pyramid thing is how Alex percieved Travis.

Granted, I am not saying these are total facts, this is just my intepretation.
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Post by GrievousGarland »

Aura, you just need to deal with the fact that people interpret things differently than you. I don't agree with you at all on any of that. The idea that only one personality can control Travis at once is absurd. Many serial killers claim to have done things while not in the right state of mind. Travis simply repressed the memories of it. ... and why would his bad side want to avoid silent hill?

and Revolverhawk, your theory intrigues me. I didn't think of the woman in the bad ending being the monster you killed in the alternate ceder grove. Makes sense.
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Post by Mephisto »

>What I'm saying is this: pretty much all of Silent Hill is a stretch. You can't even explain half the shit that happens in the games by saying it's a hallucination. Take SH2 for example: If Maria was a hallucination, then how did she open the back door to the Strip Club?
Let's take another example: If Maria is a real person (just like your saying) then how she die all the time and can be reborn?
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Post by Revolverhawk »

GrievousGarland wrote:Aura, you just need to deal with the fact that people interpret things differently than you. I don't agree with you at all on any of that. The idea that only one personality can control Travis at once is absurd. Many serial killers claim to have done things while not in the right state of mind. Travis simply repressed the memories of it. ... and why would his bad side want to avoid silent hill?

and Revolverhawk, your theory intrigues me. I didn't think of the woman in the bad ending being the monster you killed in the alternate ceder grove. Makes sense.
/shrug Just my intepretation, glad you liked some of it.
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Post by Nillin »

I actually like the interpretation that when we kill Helen, we're actually killing somebody else, and that we kill the father, we're killing some hotel orderly. It sort of makes it creepy, you know? But the whole "Omgtravisdaddysaidstop!" thing is kind of ridiculous and hints that Travis can't possibly be a killer because we know that Richard killed himself. It's not really arguable.

That's the whole gripe I have with this ending. I think it's possible that he became a killer after the Butcher overtook him, but on the other hand... We'd have to ignore the narrative of the entire hotel level, and that just isn't working for me.

I guess it's possible that Richard was about to hang himself when Travis walked in. Richard tried to explain and it's entirely possible Travis ran up to him and pushed him. xD Sort of finishing the job, I suppose. But even that's a stretch.
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Post by Revolverhawk »

Actually Nillin, you may be right about Travis pushing him. The ending doesn't really work otherwise. Of course, you may be right about the ending just being contradictory and the ending doesn't really work at all.
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Post by GrievousGarland »

Oh... *claps* pushing is a great idea. Even though Daddy was intent on killing himself, his reflexes would have caused him to react in the way we heard him in the "bad" ending.

Travis, you little devil you! :twisted:
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Post by AuraTwilight »

I'll agree with your assessment that it would be hard for an 11 year old to do. But what other interpretation can you offer for those words? Mrs. Grady did think she could talk to people in mirrors and that the real world was an illusion. But you can't assume she was wrong based on what we have seen of silent hill. The residual energy of dead people like ernest baldwin may have communicated to her through mirrors or something. As for confiscating one's keys, I suppose Travis simply figured out where they kept his keys and took them.
Mister Grady hung himself: Fact. He wrote a suicide note and everything. As for Mrs. Grady, she could have been delusional and there's no supernatural justification for it, but the attack she made on Travis affected him deeply enough that it was always rolled in the back of his head, manifesting as truth in the Otherworld due to his preoccupation with it. After all, Travis wouldn't have a monstrous side of Mrs. Grady never assaulted him.

And why would stranger ghosts with their own goals, like Ernest, tell some random chick that her son is evil for no real reason?
What I'm saying is this: pretty much all of Silent Hill is a stretch. You can't even explain half the shit that happens in the games by saying it's a hallucination. Take SH2 for example: If Maria was a hallucination, then how did she open the back door to the Strip Club?
Because in the Otherworld, hallucinations are real. Maria was invented by James' mind, but the supernatural power of the town made her flesh and blood.
SH4 pretty much threw the idea that Silent Hill is all hallucinations out the window. So to say that Mrs. Grady is totally wrong because she believes these things are real is a bit off.
Walter's Kingdom is not the Otherworld, and the two planes do not possess the same metaphysical qualities.
That said: How do you explain the last line from Travis' Father?

Woman: What are you talking about? I'm not your mamma. Please...No!
Man: Scuse me sir. Motel's closed for the season. Wait..! (screams).
Richard: What are you doing, son? Careful, daddy's..!

Why ask what he is doing? Why say "careful?" it does heavily imply that he did something to his dad...
Well, obviously, no matter how you slice it, Travis wasn't in the room when Richard hung himself, so it's probably not referring to the situation at all. Or the sequence is a delusion and has no basis in reality. Either or.
lastly, the Pyramid thing is how Alex percieved Travis.
That's stupid. Alex perceived Travis as a normal human just fine, and other people saw the Bogeyman. Where did Travis get the Great Knife? Why is he gutting people who have nothing to do with him or Alex? Why is he perfectly enacting what the town legends says he does, and why does the Otherworld shift in his presence complete with bugs? How is he teleporting around?
Aura, you just need to deal with the fact that people interpret things differently than you.
I do. I just respond back. You need to deal with the fact that I think your arguments are faulty and that I'm going to pick the holes in them.
I don't agree with you at all on any of that. The idea that only one personality can control Travis at once is absurd. Many serial killers claim to have done things while not in the right state of mind. Travis simply repressed the memories of it. ... and why would his bad side want to avoid silent hill?
How is it absurd? It's how multiple personalities work in the real world in several cases. His Bad side would want to avoid Silent Hill because, bad or not, he's Travis, and Travis doesn't want to be in Silent Hill because of the terrible memories he repressed. The Bad Side probably holds these memories, and thus might want to stay away even moreso.
and Revolverhawk, your theory intrigues me. I didn't think of the woman in the bad ending being the monster you killed in the alternate ceder grove. Makes sense.
No it doesn't. If the monster was really some random woman, why does Lisa say, "Oh cut it out, you KNOW who's in there!" Helen is one thing, but why would Lisa assume that Travis knew this total stranger?
Actually Nillin, you may be right about Travis pushing him. The ending doesn't really work otherwise. Of course, you may be right about the ending just being contradictory and the ending doesn't really work at all.
Richard was already dead by the time Travis got in the room. "Dad, I still have a quarter. You can have it." "Why, Travis? Why did you just stand there and talk on and on? You knew I was dead!"

Travis can't of had a hand in killing Richard. It's not possible, according to the game.
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Post by amphreded »

I'm in the same line as aura. It is definitely implied that Travis is the butcher, and did something bad to his father.
However, as proved by the in-game cut scene, Travis couldn't have possibly killed his father. The best explanation that can reconcile these contradictions is that the bad ending portrays Travis' delusion--he's blaming himself for all the bad things those happened around him, even though he wasn't the responsible person in reality.
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Post by Nillin »

I was thinking more along the lines of... Well, have you seen The Uninvited? Or A Tale of Two Sisters? In those movies we're seeing things from the viewpoint of the protagonist. It doesn't matter what we're shown in the movie, because it's not really what happened at all. We're seeing what the narrator is seeing, and since the narrator is batshit crazy, it's possible that we're being misled. The same thing could be entirely possible with Origins.
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Post by GrievousGarland »

How is it absurd? It's how multiple personalities work in the real world in several cases. His Bad side would want to avoid Silent Hill because, bad or not, he's Travis, and Travis doesn't want to be in Silent Hill because of the terrible memories he repressed. The Bad Side probably holds these memories, and thus might want to stay away even moreso.
But his bad side was desperate to cause pain. Homicidal urges and all that. Why would it want to stay away from the town that created that part of him? If anything, it would be the perfect place to come to create havoc.

And remember Aura, the protagonist can't always be trusted. Just because Travis remembers it that way doesn't mean that is the way it happened. Travis could have very well ran into that room just before Richard hung himself and pushed him then warped the memory of it.

For example, has Mary really been dead for three years? Or does the game reveal towards the end that that simply isn't true? Well, the bad ending contradicts what we knew about Richard's suicide.
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