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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
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I was thinking more along the lines of... Well, have you seen The Uninvited? Or A Tale of Two Sisters? In those movies we're seeing things from the viewpoint of the protagonist. It doesn't matter what we're shown in the movie, because it's not really what happened at all. We're seeing what the narrator is seeing, and since the narrator is batshit crazy, it's possible that we're being misled. The same thing could be entirely possible with Origins.


He was ALREADY deluding himself, and the Otherworld was bringing out the truth inside him. Why would this truth be another delusion and only have this revealed in a non-canon ending? It's dumb and bad, bad writing (of course, Climax are pretty bad writers, so whatever).

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But his bad side was desperate to cause pain. Homicidal urges and all that. Why would it want to stay away from the town that created that part of him? If anything, it would be the perfect place to come to create havoc.


If the Butcher wanted to cause havoc, it could do so anywhere. Why choose to do it in a place that causes it mental anguish? Regardless, if Travis did have switches in personalities in his life, I think he would've mentioned, somewhere in the game, about having blackouts or waking up in strange places.

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And remember Aura, the protagonist can't always be trusted. Just because Travis remembers it that way doesn't mean that is the way it happened. Travis could have very well ran into that room just before Richard hung himself and pushed him then warped the memory of it.

For example, has Mary really been dead for three years? Or does the game reveal towards the end that that simply isn't true? Well, the bad ending contradicts what we knew about Richard's suicide.


That's a terrible, terrible excuse. Yes, the protagonist usually can't be trusted, but the truth is always revealed to them, and to us, before the ending of the game. SH1? Truth revealed before the end of the game. SH2? Truth revealed before the end of the game. Same with SH3, SH4, and SHH. Why should Origins be different by giving us a false truth, and then in a non-canonical ending you can only get on a second playthrough give us part of the truth in a really badly executed mindfuck?

Like I said before, it seems you're not using existing evidence to draw the conclusion that Travis is a killer. You got the idea first, and you're trying to justify it and making excuses for the tremendous plot holes being created.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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So now you are just relishing in technicalities. So what's so unbelievable about Travis having layers of delusion?

and it's different because it's a prequel I suppose. It had to give justice to the primary ending and let the other fall by the wayside. That's the only reason I could think of.

I just know I"m not the only one to think this way. =p


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
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So now you are just relishing in technicalities. So what's so unbelievable about Travis having layers of delusion?


It's not a technically, it's looking at the story the developers obviously intended. Alessa is digging up the buried truth from Travis' repressed memories from all these flashbacks. Why would they be wrong? Nothing contradicts the idea that the flashbacks are 100% truth because without it, we as players never learn anything about Travis. It's the same as the theory that everyone James met was a delusion: If that was the case, we'd have no reason to believe James actually did kill Mary; every piece of evidence would be an illusion.

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and it's different because it's a prequel I suppose. It had to give justice to the primary ending and let the other fall by the wayside. That's the only reason I could think of.


What does being a prequel have to do with anything? Travis' story doesn't matter to SH1.

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I just know I"m not the only one to think this way. =p


Popularity does not equal validity.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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The bad ending contradicts the flashbacks. You shouldn't disregard it just because it's an ending. You can explain it to yourself by saying "It's just a hallucination" but as I've said before, nothing indicates that. You are just assuming that fact.

If you don't assume that, then this is the only plausible solution.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2009
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There are about as much of "evidence" to support Travis is gay as there is "evidence" to support he's a killer.

Vague monster – Twoback, Both figures look masculine, it's pretty clear they're having anal. It is said by developers that they represent Travis's sexual frustration, but why do they look so masculine?

"Momma said" – Helen never said "My son is a killer". She just went ahead and called him an abomination, pest and "the Devil's son". "He was a bad boy! Always has been! I tried to ignore it, but they were there to make sure I didn't forget." – She never accused Travis of being a killer or a sadist, so for all we know, Helen was a psycho and extremist conservative who noticed faggotry in her young son and decided to gas him.

COSTUME IS EVIDENCE COSTUME IS EVIDENCE COSTUME IS EVIDENCE COSTUME IS EVIDENCE – Travis, upon getting on the Dog costume said "Now I feel like a top dog". Think about that for a second... See what I mean?

Unclear, spin off ending bares the same evidence as unclear in-game dialogue, right? – Travis apparently doesn't apparently do well with woman. And from what we hear, he doesn't seem to be too bothered by it. Travis is a good looking guy, surely all the redneck girls would approach him. Much like Lisa did, but what does he do, he remains unresponsive, maybe even disgusted. Clearly he has teh gays!

See, just like you can dispute my "evidence" of Travis's supposed homosexuality, so can yours be disputed about Travis being a killer.

Butcher – He could represent anything. It was my theory that he represents guilt Travis felt as a child. His once sane and loving mother wanted to kill him because she saw him as a monster, his father couldn't even look at him, and then went ahead and killed himself while little Travis was playing pin-ball in the next fucking room! Kids sometimes blame themselves over the divorce of their parents, even if the parents say it's not their fault. But Travis's parents DID say (Helen) or acted as if (Richard) it was his fault. And what happened to them was a lot worse then a mere divorce. Just think about the name of the place you first see the Butcher at "the Family Butcher". Butcher could represent how Travis saw himself as a child, a monster who destroys everything it touches.

Theater nut – If a random person could identify someone as a serial killer, then anyone would, and Travis would have been arrested. Also note, the person never said the words "serial killer", just said it's "HIM". My first impression was that the person was being stalked by their own executioner-like figure.

Photographs are Travis's victims! ZOMG! – These are funny. If a serial killer gets a nickname "Butcher", would his victims have more... Butchering involved? Only one person on those photos was killed by stabbing, and the stabbing seemed relatively clean. Hardly the "Butcher" material. The photos signify the theme of the rooms.

Snake bite – Cleopatra (Cleopatra room)
Overdose – Marilyn Monroe (Rose room (note the Merlin's photo))
Stabbing – Nero? Mark Anthony?
Shotgun – Earnest Hemingway?
Broken heart – Richard Grady

I thought that the suicide was a pretty clear theme of the rooms and photos.

Also, Alessa probably wouldn't allow a serial killer to walk away and continue killing. Travis's flash-back involving his father is pretty clear, since the game revolves around Travis facing his trauma, the idea that the flash-back is false is illogical. If there was a serial killer, wouldn't there be a hint somewhere, like, I dunno, newspaper article, and if Travis was THE serial killer, wouldn't there also be some kind of a hint, other then an unclear ending, like a boss-fight, flash-back, or something?

And even if the cop-out Bad ending indicates that Travis was a serial killer, that doesn't mean that he was a serial killer if you achieved the Good ending. The same way SH1 is Harry's dying dream in one of the possible endings, but bares no weight on the other endings.

Even still, the bad ending can be interpreted in many ways; A hallucination, the events in Silent Hill and Travis's unearthed memories TURNING him into a serial killer, all of it only happening in his head while in reality his stuck in an asylum, pissed off demon trapping Travis in the mirror world and turning him into a monster and so on... The idea that the bad ending indicates Travis is a killer is a theory, not a fact.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
The bad ending contradicts the flashbacks. You shouldn't disregard it just because it's an ending. You can explain it to yourself by saying "It's just a hallucination" but as I've said before, nothing indicates that. You are just assuming that fact.


Then the bad ending is wrong. What's more likely to be a delusion? What Travis must experience in all playthroughs while totally lucid, when his experiences are directed by Alessa to some extent, or what he experiences in some playthroughs while he's tarding out on a stretcher, shaking his head in some sort of seizure while he's hearing things that aren't there?

Also, Arsie <3 (Yea, you get a nickname now. Feel loved)

Travis = Gay

Gay > Serial Killer.

FCC won't let him be both because of hate crime laws.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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AuraTwilight wrote:
Quote:
The bad ending contradicts the flashbacks. You shouldn't disregard it just because it's an ending. You can explain it to yourself by saying "It's just a hallucination" but as I've said before, nothing indicates that. You are just assuming that fact.


Then the bad ending is wrong. What's more likely to be a delusion? What Travis must experience in all playthroughs while totally lucid, when his experiences are directed by Alessa to some extent, or what he experiences in some playthroughs while he's tarding out on a stretcher, shaking his head in some sort of seizure while he's hearing things that aren't there?

Also, Arsie <3 (Yea, you get a nickname now. Feel loved)

Travis = Gay

Gay > Serial Killer.

FCC won't let him be both because of hate crime laws.


It isn't a matter of each of them being a delusion. They both happened. The only part that causes problems is Richard's death, and that can be explained with another repressed memory (which Travis apparently has many). He's not having a seizure on a bed, he's shaking his head because he's remembering things he doesn't want to and being sedated because he's apparently become violent.

and you can very well be gay and a serial killer. *points at Mr. Bundy* >.>


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
The last part was obviously a joke, dude.

But no, they both can't of happened. It's impossible within the narrative. If you refuse to see that, you're the one being close-minded, not me.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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AuraTwilight wrote:
The last part was obviously a joke, dude.

But no, they both can't of happened. It's impossible within the narrative. If you refuse to see that, you're the one being close-minded, not me.


I know. :P

No... you're the one calling something "impossible", not me. That's just being close-minded.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 18 Jun 2009
Notes left: 132
Arsonist wrote:

And even if the cop-out Bad ending indicates that Travis was a serial killer, that doesn't mean that he was a serial killer if you achieved the Good ending. The same way SH1 is Harry's dying dream in one of the possible endings, but bares no weight on the other endings.

Even still, the bad ending can be interpreted in many ways; A hallucination, the events in Silent Hill and Travis's unearthed memories TURNING him into a serial killer, all of it only happening in his head while in reality his stuck in an asylum, pissed off demon trapping Travis in the mirror world and turning him into a monster and so on... The idea that the bad ending indicates Travis is a killer is a theory, not a fact.


Um..I believe I stated that earlier..that it was just an intepretation. I think you are really only arguing with yourself on whether or not Travis' status as a serial killer is fact. You're fighting your own ghosts on that one. That said, I think I have changed my mind and agree with you Aura, or more specifically, Amphreded. I guess saying that he blames himself even though he wasn't guilty does make more sense. But I still find that concept art interesting: the one that shows him as having the Butcher's Shadow.

My personal conclusion is that Climax wanted to the game to be taken either way, but rather than make things properly vague, they simply provided conflicting evidence. Which is what led to this discussion.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
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No... you're the one calling something "impossible", not me. That's just being close-minded.


I'm using evidence to support it. Would you say I'm close-minded, then, for saying Angela isn't Alessa because before SH3 was released you could kind of bullshit a weird reasoning for it despite the contradictions to the canon?

What's close-minded is picking an idea you like, such as Travis being a serial killer, and despite your weak arguments and the evidence of various other people, continue to try and justify it with "Well, maybe Travis was hallucinating" or "Well, you don't know, it could be true."

Quote:
That said, I think I have changed my mind and agree with you Aura, or more specifically, Amphreded. I guess saying that he blames himself even though he wasn't guilty does make more sense. But I still find that concept art interesting: the one that shows him as having the Butcher's Shadow.


Speaking of Butcher's Shadow, there's a thread of mine you'd probably like to read.

http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=412613

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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 Post subject:

*sigh* I suppose you're right. I'm too tired to continue any further. It's quite a round-about argument anyway.

I hate Travis anyway. Stupid hillbilly. Don't know why I put so much thought into it anyway. >.>


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Hillbilly? :l Well F you too. XD

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2009
Notes left: 648
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Um..I believe I stated that earlier..that it was just an intepretation.


Do you see yourself quoted anywhere in my rant? I was speaking in general. It wasn't really directed at anyone. Honestly, I didn't really read all of the replies to this thread, yours is one of those I haven't read. Besides, a lot of people took that particular interpretation as a fact, does it really do harm to replete that it's just an interpretation, no?

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FCC won't let him be both because of hate crime laws.


I LOL'd. Hard. Thanks Aura.

Quote:
*points at Mr. Bundy*


I felt I need to say it, sorry; Bundy wasn't gay. You can tell by the fact that his victims were women who looked like his ex girlfriend. There are plenty of real gay serial killers you could have chose though. Jeffrey Dahmer, Andrew Cunanan, John Wayne Gacy, Arthur Gary Bishop and so on. Lrn 2 serial killer :wink: :P


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Jeffery Dahmer was hot by the way.

No, I don't have a murder fetish, why?

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 26 Dec 2004
Notes left: 2560
Last seen at: Insomnia land, where I am Queen!
Wow, was this a long read. Sorry, GrievousGarland, but I am with Aura here. You really are kind of grasping at straws, love.
I'm of the mind that the bad ending is lazy and half-assed. It is like they rushed that and the photos at the last minute, and I have stated that elsewhere before. They needed a bad ending and kind of threw that mess together to contrast the good, canon ending.
Also, arguing with Aura is like bashing your head against a brick wall, so only engage in this activity in good spirits and only keep at it if you are enjoying the debate and having fun. :D
And I say that with love, Aura, because I enjoy debating with you on the rare occasions I don't agree with you. :D <3

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Gaming For Honor, playing video games to raise money for Wounded Warriors Project.
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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Well, at the end of the session the other guy's skull is usually smashed into the wall into a bloody mess, so I guess you're right.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 26 Dec 2004
Notes left: 2560
Last seen at: Insomnia land, where I am Queen!
^Lol, exactly. Except for Thomas. :wink: He'll keep bashing until his head falls off and will still smash until you eventually jump off a cliff yourself. :mrgreen: <3 you, Thomas! :D Just playing. :)

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Gaming For Honor, playing video games to raise money for Wounded Warriors Project.
The Anime Cauldron is taking a nap.
Peachy's Predictions on Tumblr
Peachy's Predictions. on LiveJournal


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Jul 2009
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If the bad ending were true, then the monsters were actually Humans after all.


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Subway Guard
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Missing since: 15 May 2008
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Last seen at: Right behind you
^ Yeah, but if that were true, we'd have heard about it in SH1 probably. "Big fire, 6 houses destroyed. Oh, and a psycho killer on the loose right after, slaughtering random townspeople.." I realize that this game can't retroactively add content to the later games, but in fitting with canon, it absolutely can't be the true ending.

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