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Truck drivin' Travis detours into Silent Hill. Tree Top Tall & Wall-to-Wall, Good Buddy.

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DamienPales
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Post by DamienPales »

Burning Man wrote:I'm guessing you're no doctor. How does one make such diagnosis without an autopsy? Do you just stare at the body long enough?
An autopsy is what you do to determine the cause of death, and you perform autopsies on dead people. A diagnosis is what you do to determine the symptoms and effects of an ill patient, and you perform diagnoses on live patients.

If Alessa was burned to death in a fire, an autopsy would be rather pointless. It's kind of obvious what her cause of death is.
And yet Alessa's house held together almost perfectly.
It was two rooms. Hardly perfect. The hospital held together better than that.
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AuraTwilight
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Post by AuraTwilight »

It was two rooms. Hardly perfect. The hospital held together better than that.
I mean in a general sense that, you know, one part of the house leads to the other part of the house. Even still, it was pretty clear we were going into the basement of the house.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by Droo »

AuraTwilight wrote: Yea, it's not like Dahlia was exploiting Alessa and forcing her to telekinetically kill enemies of the Order or anything. No, had to be part of raising God.
Alessa was only able to do that because of her special abilities, granted to her by God.
AuraTwilight wrote:Even still, it was pretty clear we were going into the basement of the house.
Actually, it's the second floor hallway, so we're going down the stairs into the first floor of the house. It's pretty clear we were going down to the first floor of the house.
"Oh yeah, I've been here before
I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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Post by Burning Man »

DamienPales wrote:An autopsy is what you do to determine the cause of death, and you perform autopsies on dead people. A diagnosis is what you do to determine the symptoms and effects of an ill patient, and you perform diagnoses on live patients.

If Alessa was burned to death in a fire, an autopsy would be rather pointless. It's kind of obvious what her cause of death is.
I think you misunderstood me. A patient who has had a diagnosis because she was alive is not going to be pronounced dead without an autopsy.

And, no, you still perform an autopsy on charred corpses. I'm sure you've heard of some cases where it was determined that a body was already dead - leading to speculations of homicide - before the fire because they found no traces of ash in the body's lungs?

It's something doctors do. They don't say, "oh, isn't that obvious. Cause of death: roasted by fire."
Droo wrote:Alessa was only able to do that because of her special abilities, granted to her by God.
The ritual that Dahlia performed on Alessa through immolation is "descent of the god." Alessa did not have the god within her prior to that if that's what you're getting at.
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Post by Droo »

Normally, yes. But here we have an individual in a position of power and control in the medical environment both the pronouncement and autopsy would come out of. It's a small town. Kaufmann can get away with a lot more than he would be able to normally. This isn't Chicago or New York City. It's a tiny resort town in the middle of nowhere.
"Oh yeah, I've been here before
I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Alessa was only able to do that because of her special abilities, granted to her by God.
Bullshit, she wasn't even impregnated with God at this point. Alessa's ability to kill people with her mind was pretty much one of the main powers that made her the candidate for Mother of God, according to Heather. She says "She had special powers," not "God gave her special powers."
Actually, it's the second floor hallway, so we're going down the stairs into the first floor of the house. It's pretty clear we were going down to the first floor of the house.
We go past any first floor that might've been there though.
Normally, yes. But here we have an individual in a position of power and control in the medical environment both the pronouncement and autopsy would come out of. It's a small town. Kaufmann can get away with a lot more than he would be able to normally. This isn't Chicago or New York City. It's a tiny resort town in the middle of nowhere.
It's also a town under police investigation from other towns in order to find a drug ring.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by Kenji »

Droo wrote:Actually, it's the second floor hallway, so we're going down the stairs into the first floor of the house. It's pretty clear we were going down to the first floor of the house.
I was talking about this earlier. The staircase that would normally lead to the first floor descends further into a black abyss. I then talked about how a child would fear a basement as an abyss moreso than the first floor, since it's under the earth. That's how I figured that particular staircase headed in the direction of the basement, where it all began.
It's a small town. Kaufmann can get away with a lot more than he would be able to normally. This isn't Chicago or New York City. It's a tiny resort town in the middle of nowhere.
Isn't that a little backwards? I was always under the impression that "there are no secrets in a small town," whereas you can get away with a ton in a big city because nobody cares.

Regarding the larger question of Dahlia's step out of bounds with the immolation, I'm still under the impression that Walter and Alessa were originally meant to perform a shared ritual, with the Valtiel Heather sees essentially being Walter's placeholder. Dahlia, however, wanted all of God's power for herself, and so performed her own private ritual in her own house.
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Post by Droo »

The Silent Hill series is full of staircases that are too long, hallways that go on forever, etc. Need I remind you of the Labyrinth in SH2? How far down do we travel in that, only to end up having physically only travelled a very short distance in the end? Silent Hill fucks with space. Yes, the staircase is way too long. That doesn't mean it's leading past the first floor into the basement. You're being too literal.
"Oh yeah, I've been here before
I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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Post by AuraTwilight »

I don't think "too literal" is quite the criticism that's appropriate, but Nowhere isn't exactly the same as the Trial of the Abyss; therefore, there's probably different reasons for those different long staircases.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by Burning Man »

This is all interesting, but it doesn't change the fact the immolation was performed on the second floor, according to Origins, Droo. It's a contradiction to SH1 regardless of whether the stairway leads to the basement or the first floor.
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Post by Droo »

The contradiction is accounted for within Origins itself, though. The doctored police report on the fire. It's one of the few contradictions that acknowledges it to be a contradiction and deals with it. It's not like they just put it on the second floor and said nothing more. They actually followed through and accounted for the difference.
"Oh yeah, I've been here before
I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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The Adversary
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Post by The Adversary »

Except the contradiction poses even more problems unaccounted for, such as how exactly Alessa's body was switched at the scene of the fire.
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Post by Droo »

In Origins Alessa's body is not switched at the fire at all. Isn't that part of the problem?

Do we know if Travis is even moving Alessa physically in the real world? The opening movie suggests that Travis is sucked into Foggy Silent Hill immediately upon exiting his truck. In that case, is he able to interact with the real world insomuch as being able to move Alessa outside the house? Perhaps she's still in there. Maybe he's removing her in a spiritual sense. After all, none of the firefighters or ambulance people saw Travis lying on the front lawn. He just vanishes and appears in Silent Hill.

If Travis had been found there, he would be taken to the hospital, examined, and reported as being on scene as well as known to Kaufmann and Lisa as the rescuer. However, even Kaufmann doesn't seem to know who Travis is until they speak for a bit.

Therefore, it can logically be concluded that Travis was not physically present on the front lawn of the Gillespie house, and from there it could be questioned as to whether or not Alessa was either or if she was still inside the house.
"Oh yeah, I've been here before
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Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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Post by Burning Man »

An accounted for contradiction is meaningless if it contradicts games within the series, and as such we're comparing Origins' events to that of SH1. Up until now, certain people were arguing that retconning was okay as long as the information being retconned was in guidebooks: something most people don't have access to.

SH1 suggests that the immolation did not happen on the second floor. Origins contradicts this. A careful observer would play Origins, then play SH1 and see that contradiction.
Droo wrote:Do we know if Travis is even moving Alessa physically in the real world?
Yes, we do. Besides, we're discussing whether Alessa was burned on the second floor or the basement. Travis moving Alessa out of the house has nothing to do with that.
Last edited by Burning Man on 27 Apr 2009, edited 1 time in total.
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Droo
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Post by Droo »

Where did Travis go then?
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Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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Post by Burning Man »

I'll give you a reasonable scenario:

Dahlia moved Travis out of the way.
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Post by Droo »

Interesting. But why? Why wouldn't she just kill him?

I always thought it was likely that Alessa spirited him away, much the same as she did with Harry in SH1.
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I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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Post by Burning Man »

Outright killing Travis would have lead to unnecessary complications. Dahlia might have had no way to know, but Travis just left his truck on the outskirts. His co-worker knows where Travis was heading and which truck was registered to him. If Travis didn't come back, then obviously people were going to look for him in Silent Hill.

Kaufmann says this in the game, but he wants Travis to leave. They counted on him to wake up and head out of town. Mind you, the reason that he's found outside of Alchemilla is because Kaufmann needed to examine him, make sure he's okay and all that. This was done privately. Once it was determined that the man would live, he was simply moved out of the hospital and onto a bench.
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Post by The Adversary »

Alessa didn't "spirit Harry away," though.
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Droo
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Post by Droo »

No? What about the shunting from the alleyway to the Cafe, the shunting from Green Lion back to Alchemilla and then BACK to Green Lion?

Burning Man: That makes perfect sense, except for the problem that Travis would be seen by the ambulance driver, the firefighters, and any local looky-loos who might come out to see what was going on. He couldn't be so secretively examined.

Then again, given how many people would see him, it does make it unlikely that Dahlia just would kill him.
"Oh yeah, I've been here before
I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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