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 Post subject: Reconciling apparent plot holes
     
         
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Now its own thread so that the Otherworld discussion can get back on topic.

This theory (and any similar ones that may come) is the result of my annoyance with the thought of Origins being nothing more than a big plot hole. Sure it might appear as though Origins directly and irrefutably contradicts previous games and valuable supplemental material, but I'll bet if we got really creative we could find ways to reconcile at least some of those contradictions. I'd rather have even a far-fetched theory that bridges those gaps than none at all.

I realize that there are quite a few other inconsistencies than the one I address here, and those will surely come up in this thread later. Feel free to list 'em here.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


Regarding the inability to switch bodies at the scene of the fire, I have what may well be a completely ridiculous idea. Hear me out:

Alessa is in the basement, and another child (perhaps an orphan from Wish House) is on the second floor. It's not Alessa that Travis pulls from the Gillespie house, but the decoy that will later be pronounced dead (because she dies). This greatly simplifies any required coverup because instead of switching bodies, all Dahlia has to do is say that the child burned in her house is Alessa.

The child that Travis saves tells him to "let [her] burn," yet clearly Alessa's power enables him to escape the burning house with the girl. Could Alessa be using her power from the basement to try and save two innocent people?

The doctor's diagnosis refers to the real Alessa, as it sounds very much like Lisa's videotaped report from SH1. We can only speculate as to whether or not this doctor is being kept silent by Kaufmann and The Order, but I wouldn't consider it far-fetched.

. . .Did I do it? Did I resolve the discrepancy? *crosses fingers*


Last edited by JuriDawn on 08 Jan 2010, edited 3 times in total.

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I very much prefer your way of thinking over Droo's as you are trying to find a workaround without having to break consistency. . . I'd like to give Climax as much credit as possible: that they really did think of everything.

That said, your theory doesn't work for two reasons:

1. Altered Police Report: the police report was altered to make it sound like the fire started from the basement due to the boiler. This is an unnecessary alteration if the point was to lead the officials to believe that Alessa burned on the second floor. One may argue that the boiler was the only credible source for a fire that would bring the house down, but Climax actually made that point moot by providing candles burning on the second floor. The report could have easily been altered to say that the fire started due to unattended candles burning.

2. When Travis sees Alessa on the other side of the mirror in Alchemilla, he says that she's "the girl from the fire." I admit this is kind of strange considering that he saw a girl as a burned corpse, and that he immediately recognizes Alessa to be the same girl that he saved. Yet, if we take his word for it, then the girl he saved from the fire is Alessa.

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Alessa isn't omniscient. She doesn't see everything, everywhere.

Yr idea also requires too much supposition w/out support to really work and contradicts what Silent Hill: Origins says about the matter. By trying to unify 2 games, you've ultimately excluded the one people are trying the most to salvage.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Burning Man wrote:
1. Altered Police Report: the police report was altered to make it sound like the fire started from the basement due to the boiler. This is an unnecessary alteration if the point was to lead the officials to believe that Alessa burned on the second floor. One may argue that the boiler was the only credible source for a fire that would bring the house down, but Climax actually made that point moot by providing candles burning on the second floor. The report could have easily been altered to say that the fire started due to unattended candles burning.

If that were the official cause, might Dahlia have to worry about being investigated for negligent homicide? The candles would have to be lit and left unattended by a responsible adult, but if the boiler is the cause, no one could really be blamed.

Quote:
2. When Travis sees Alessa on the other side of the mirror in Alchemilla, he says that she's "the girl from the fire." I admit this is kind of strange considering that he saw a girl as a burned corpse, and that he immediately recognizes Alessa to be the same girl that he saved. Yet, if we take his word for it, then the girl he saved from the fire is Alessa.

Or perhaps he's simply associated the ghostly image of Alessa he saw at the beginning with the girl he pulled from the fire. It's not like Travis would be the only protagonist to mistake someone for Alessa.

MMY wrote:
Alessa isn't omniscient. She doesn't see everything, everywhere.

And I'm not trying to argue that. However, we've seen that she's capable of astral projection. She shows herself to Travis before he even arrives at her house, so why shouldn't she be able to see him while he's in the house?


Last edited by JuriDawn on 30 Apr 2009, edited 1 time in total.

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JuriDawn wrote:
If that were the official cause, might Dahlia have to worry about being investigated for negligent homicide? The candles would have to be lit and left unattended by a responsible adult, but if the boiler is the cause, no one could really be blamed.

The boiler was antiquated, though, and it was bound to malfunction. Besides, if Alessa was really burned in the basement, wouldn't they want the officials to look elsewhere? If they really wanted to trick them into believing that Alessa burned on the second floor, I mean.

Quote:
Or perhaps he's simply associated the ghostly image of Alessa he saw at the beginning with the girl he pulled from the fire.

So, you're saying that he assumed that the girl was Alessa, but in reality he could be mistaken?

Quote:
It's not like Travis would be the only protagonist to mistake someone for Alessa.

EDIT: Who else has mistaken someone for Alessa?

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Last edited by Burning Man on 30 Apr 2009, edited 1 time in total.

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My edit wasn't quick enough. :P Yes, I believe he could be as mistaken as Harry.

Burning Man wrote:
The boiler was antiquated, though, and it was bound to malfunction.

Even so, there would likely be less blame cast toward Dahlia than if she left dozens of candles burning.

Quote:
Besides, if Alessa was really burned in the basement, wouldn't they want the officials to look elsewhere? If they really wanted to trick them into believing that Alessa burned on the second floor, I mean.

I'm operating under (if I remember correctly) your assumption of the reason for burning Alessa in the basement. The members of the cult could possibly get in to retrieve Alessa's body through a back entrance, which would be made even easier if the authorities believed that the child was already out of the house and on her way to the hospital. Once Alessa had been removed, why would they need to worry about diverting attention from the basement, especially knowing that they would be able to have the police report altered?


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JuriDawn wrote:
My edit wasn't quick enough. :P Yes, I believe he could be as mistaken as Harry.

When did Harry mistake someone for Alessa? Are you talking about Harry referring to Incubator as "that girl" in Silent Hill 3?

Quote:
I'm operating under (if I remember correctly) your assumption of the reason for burning Alessa in the basement. The members of the cult could possibly get in to retrieve Alessa's body through a back entrance, which would be made even easier if the authorities believed that the child was already out of the house and on her way to the hospital. Once Alessa had been removed, why would they need to worry about diverting attention from the basement, especially knowing that they would be able to have the police report altered?

The point in the original game was that the fire took place in the basement, but they needed to make certain people believe that it was an accident. Thus, the boiler was brought into the fold to explain that the fire in the basement happened because of the boiler, and not because Dahlia started it herself.

They could have easily left the decoy body in the basement as well, but going by your reasoning, they put the body all the way up on the second floor. This action only makes sense if they were trying to make people believe that Alessa was burned there, and hide Alessa's real location of burning.

But, if the report is altered to point exactly to where Alessa was burned in the first place, even though the original report talks about it having started on the first floor, then all that action of putting the decoy on the second floor becomes meaningless.

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Burning Man wrote:
JuriDawn wrote:
My edit wasn't quick enough. :P Yes, I believe he could be as mistaken as Harry.

When did Harry mistake someone for Alessa? Are you talking about Harry referring to Incubator as "that girl" in Silent Hill 3?

Yes. When he says "the girl" in his journal, he clearly refers to Alessa.

Quote:
They could have easily left the decoy body in the basement as well, but going by your reasoning, they put the body all the way up on the second floor. This action only makes sense if they were trying to make people believe that Alessa was burned there, and hide Alessa's real location of burning.

If the decoy body were in the basement, Travis would have seen them both and either saved both or told whoever would listen that there were two little girls in that house. The best explanation I have is that placing the decoy child so far from the basement is a contingency plan that ensures any rescue workers who enter the building will find the girl on the second floor (since her screams can be heard) and leave with no need to check the basement for inhabitants. Dahlia's probably skulking around for the express purpose of telling firefighters that Alessa is the only one in the house and she's on the second floor. Oh, and to identify the body that Dr. Kaufmann will declare dead.


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JuriDawn wrote:
Yes. When he says "the girl" in his journal, he clearly refers to Alessa.

I'm not sure Harry would be mistaken there. Not completely, anyway. I think there would be a point in calling the holy figure "Alessa/Incubator" officially. It's still speculated among fans the true nature of the Woman In White, anyway. Yes, the figure is God, but she is also Alessa. Comparatively, however, Travis would have gotten it completely wrong as he's mistaking another girl for Alessa. Not the same thing.

Quote:
If the decoy body were in the basement, Travis would have seen them both and either saved both or told whoever would listen that there were two little girls in that house.

I forgot to tell you that the switched body was already a corpse. . .

Quote:
The best explanation I have is that placing the decoy child so far from the basement is a contingency plan that ensures any rescue workers who enter the building will find the girl on the second floor (since her screams can be heard) and leave with no need to check the basement for inhabitants. Dahlia's probably skulking around for the express purpose of telling firefighters that Alessa is the only one in the house and she's on the second floor. Oh, and to identify the body that Dr. Kaufmann will declare dead.

I believe Climax took Alessa out of the basement to ensure that her screams could be heard, so you do have a point there. It would be one thing to leave her burning in the house as the original told it, but since they needed to find a way to make Travis enter the residence, I can see them thinking that it was necessary to push the body up onto the second floor. Not to mention that the scene would be nostalgic to the fans who've played the first game - Nowhere -, and that scene where Travis crashes through the floor is well executed: only possible because there was a reason for him to get to the second floor.

I don't know. I admit that your theory sounds reasonable, but I'm uncomfortable with the fact that the body of the girl was alive when Travis saved her. It's one thing to switch Alessa with a corpse, so when it is moved to Alchemilla, any doctor can pronounce her dead. But the fact that the girl was alive means that she either has to die on her way there, or Kaufmann found a way to kill her. This makes the plot unnecessarily complicated, in my honest opinion.

I've mentioned before that the decoy may be one of the girls that was a surrogate mother, and I think this is important. It is unreasonable for me to think that such a girl lived for that long to be switched.

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Burning Man wrote:
I'm not sure Harry would be mistaken there. Not completely, anyway. I think there would be a point in calling the holy figure "Alessa/Incubator" officially. It's still speculated among fans the true nature of the Woman In White, anyway. Yes, the figure is God, but she is also Alessa. Comparatively, however, Travis would have gotten it completely wrong as he's mistaking another girl for Alessa. Not the same thing.

Either way, I would consider it an understandable mistake, as the girl he pulls from the burning house is burned beyond recognition. And since he also saw a decidedly less ghostly vision of Alessa running toward the house before he got there, that would be grounds for a reasonable assumption that she is the girl he rescued.

Quote:
I forgot to tell you that the switched body was already a corpse. . .

Alright, let's go with that. As you've pointed out, it does make Dr. Kaufmann's part of the coverup less comlpicated. I've seen it suggested that when the girl upstairs says "Let me burn," she's being somehow controlled by Dahlia. As I watch the scene, it certainly doesn't look or sound as if the girl is speaking naturally. If Dahlia can make Alessa speak, why not extend this to say that she made this girl's corpse speak? I'm sure Travis didn't stop to check for a pulse.

Quote:
I believe Climax took Alessa out of the basement to ensure that her screams could be heard, so you do have a point there. It would be one thing to leave her burning in the house as the original told it, but since they needed to find a way to make Travis enter the residence, I can see them thinking that it was necessary to push the body up onto the second floor.

I absolutely agree. All I'm trying to accomplish is to show that this apparent change doesn't necessarily have to directly oppose supplemental material, which I consider to be a terrible shame.


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Quote:
Alessa is in the basement, and another child (perhaps an orphan from Wish House) is on the second floor. It's not Alessa that Travis pulls from the Gillespie house, but the decoy that will later be pronounced dead (because she dies). This greatly simplifies any required coverup because instead of switching bodies, all Dahlia has to do is say that the child burned in her house is Alessa.

The child that Travis saves tells him to "let [her] burn," yet clearly Alessa's power enables him to escape the burning house with the girl. Could Alessa be using her power from the basement to try and save two innocent people?


What about the telepathic "let me burn"?

Quote:
Alessa isn't omniscient. She doesn't see everything, everywhere.


Though I don't agree with Juri's theory, Alessa's clairvoyant powers make her as omniscient as the plot needs her to be.

Quote:
I'm sure Travis didn't stop to check for a pulse.


I don't see how he could miss the fact that the girl's not breathing. Also, doesn't she open her eyes?

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Alessa (or something) says "let me burn", her eyes open and flash red, her body shudders, and the Seal turns red.

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I always thought the girl was ALessa since the Virun crests appears in the fire allowing Travis to save her life...


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Actually it's the Halo of the Sun, and according to what I've suggested, Alessa could be causing it to appear even if she's not in Travis's arms. The purpose would be to permit an innocent bystander (Travis) to avoid burning to death. If Alessa was the one saying "Let me burn," then it wouldn't make much sense for her to want Travis to save her life, would it?

AuraTwilight wrote:
I don't see how he could miss the fact that the girl's not breathing.
In a room that's mostly on fire and filling with smoke? Sure he could. And if anyone else can suggest that a third party makes the girl speak, it's not far from there to suggest that a third party made her open her eyes.


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JuriDawn wrote:
If Alessa was the one saying "Let me burn," then it wouldn't make much sense for her to want Travis to save her life, would it?


No, but she wanted Travis to get out alive.

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>No, but she wanted Travis to get out alive.

Yup, that's what I think. I was responding to KageReneko's assumption that Alessa opened a path so that Travis could save her.


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I just think it's a bit silly to assume someone has such strong magical powers as to manipulate a corpse, project a voice, open a corpse's eyes and such, simulate breathing, etc. That's more in the range of Alessa's powers than say, Dahlia's.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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You have a comprehensive and detailed catalog of Dahlia's powers along with every magical incantation she had access to? Share plz.

And as I mentioned, there wouldn't be any need to simulate breathing in an environment that doesn't allow for close examination. Travis hears her speak and sees her jerk a bit, therefore he assumes she's alive.

To reiterate, I'm not necessarily suggesting that my theory is likely. I laughed out loud at the thought of it before I even posted here. But I don't see why it couldn't be possible. As soon as someone comes up with a more plausible explanation that allows Origins to coexist with the other games and Lost Memories, I'll be happy to adopt that one. I prefer a silly, possible theory over "Origins = plot hole" any day. :P


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Simply put, the spells Dahlia can use are nowhere near Alessa's power, otherwise she wouldn't need to force her to telekinetically kill people. Giving someone a heart attack, I imagine, is a lot easier than opening a corpse's eyes, having it speak telepathically, simulate breathing, and possibly move fire.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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I'm sorry, but isn't it pretty darn obvious that this plot hole was intended? Climax simply didn't think it through. The girl in the upstairs room is obviously Alessa. She's burned to a crisp, but you can still tell this. Someone should take a headshot of the burned girl and transpose it over the face of the girl that Travis sees in the beginning. The facial structure is the same.

She says "let me burn", her eyes open, and the crest glows. It's obvious that this power is radiating from the girl withing in the circle. I suppose we can lie to ourselves and say that the real Alessa is in the basement working this other girl over like a puppet, but do you really think that Climax would have thought that out in such a round-about way?


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