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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gents)

Missing since: 11 Sep 2010
Notes left: 4
I'm wondering why The Order couldn't just kill Travis when they had the opportunity (and they had several good ones)?

Now, I'm certain that there must have been a very good reason as to why they simply couldn't kill Travis, as killing him would have been the easiest, most obvious and effective way of handling the problem. It is clear that things are far more complicated than they appear. Evidently, the best thing they can do is try to lead Travis away from Alessa's guiding influence and/or hope that he is eventually killed by the town's demons (born from both his and Alessa's broken psyche). The question then, is why? And why was Travis considered so untouchable by The Order? I find it very hard to believe that The Order simply underestimated him (gravely underestimated, that is) and simply treated him like a mild annoyance. It's just a bit too much to swallow.

My guess is that because Alessa was currently 'piggybacking' on Travis' compromised consciousness/psyche, killing him while she was still attached would have sabotaged The Order's efforts to birth their God, as they need her consciousness intact for this purpose. The real question, then, is what would have happened to Alessa's consciousness if The Order did actually go ahead and kill Travis? Several things may happen:

1. The shock brought on by extinguishing her vessel (Travis) could cause her consciousness to recede or be partially destroyed, reducing the potency of her psychic powers and further delaying or ruining The Order's birthing ceremony.

COUNTERPOINT: But then, what happens if Travis is killed by one of Alessa's or his own monsters, or dies some other way (trips and breaks his neck, falls down a chasm)? What is the difference between getting killed by a cult member and getting killed some other way? The mechanics here are baffling.

2. Perhaps Alessa's, and by extension Travis' connection to the Flauros is a deciding factor here? I understand that Alessa seems to be drawing power from Dahlia's piece ("draws power from the core I hold") in order to guide and help Travis, so what happens if Travis is murdered by a cult member? I think that The Order aren't really on to Travis until he goes to the hospital and meets Dr. Kaufmann, who would definitely have viewed Travis as a credible threat to their plans. And once Travis has cleared the hospital and met young Lisa (an obvious ploy to lead him to the Sanitarium), he has already reclaimed one Flauros piece, and has thus made Alessa stronger. Perhaps by the time Travis meets Dahlia in the Sanitarium, she is physically unable to harm him, due to the Flauros piece he holds (and the 'core' she holds as well, providing she hasn't ditched it yet)? Perhaps if she tried to attack him, Alessa might psychically retaliate through Travis and the nearby Flauros pieces ("pchoom! pchoom! Back off, you crazy bitch!")? Perhaps this has something to do with the cult members' relationship with Alessa (mother, doctor, friend, acquaintance, etc.), and can only exert psychic power over people she knows? This may explain why she doesn't exert this kind of (hypothetical) power in other situations where it would be handy, or merely it's because she's too weak to do it repeatedly and will only do it when it is strictly necessary?

Maybe the only thing that can kill Travis in Fog World or the Otherworld is his own or Alessa's nightmarish manifestations, as these alternate worlds are both theirs by virtue of him being 'piggybacked' and used as a proxy? This explains the reasoning behind The Order leading Travis to personally significant locations and forcing him to face his demons, as they would be much harder to overcome than a random gaggle of Alessa-derived monsters.

3. Does The Butcher factor into any of this? I haven't the slightest, at the moment.

So can someone help me out here? I get the feeling that I may have answered my own question in the course of my reasoning, but I'm all for open discussion. And has this topic been raised before? I've looked around, but I can't seem to find anything. Any help would be great.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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He's in another fucking dimension. While The Order are on Earth, Travis is inside a world made from his psyche. They may be able to see and talk to him when Alessa allows it, but I'm sure they're literally unable to touch him.

Alessa would not be harmed if Travis is killed. He's only a pawn.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent

Missing since: 11 Sep 2010
Notes left: 4
AuraTwilight wrote:
He's in another fucking dimension. While The Order are on Earth, Travis is inside a world made from his psyche. They may be able to see and talk to him when Alessa allows it, but I'm sure they're literally unable to touch him.

Alessa would not be harmed if Travis is killed. He's only a pawn.


Alright, so Travis can see and partially interact with other people while he's in his own little pocket dimension (cross between his and Alessa's psyche/Otherworlds overlapping the real world), but they can't physically harm him. And the implication is that Travis only sees these people when Alessa allows it, like she sort of triggers a temporary shift to the real world, as communication would not be possible unless both parties can see and talk to each other (or unless they're temporarily drawn into his world, you tell me). The fact that the only people we see are in some way connected to Alessa (Kaufmann, Lisa, Dahlia) is also an important factor and a vague explanation for this phenomenon. The obvious purpose of these conversations are to be lead to the next Flauros piece location, which have been hidden according to both Travis' and Alessa's traumatic childhood experiences. One possible conclusion is that Alessa is actively playing detective and will use any good leads in her search, the best of which are Dahlia, Kaufmann and Lisa, who happen to be very close at hand (although Dahlia turns out to be mostly unhelpful).

You also suggest that these people literally cannot touch Travis, which I immediately assumed meant physical harm instead of literal 'touching'. But if you meant the latter, I seem to remember the scene in the Theater where Lisa tries to seduce Travis and literally touches him a number of times. If this is what you meant, then what explanation is there for it? Could it just be really convincing illusion?

When I played Origins, I just unconsciously assumed that the 'rules' established in previous games where in place. One of them was that people's Otherworlds or Fog Worlds could intersect and allow them the opportunity to inflict harm on one another (Boss fights like Possessed Cybil, Eddie, that whole business with Claudia and to a lesser extent Walter). A possible explanation is that this is a prequel, and that by this stage in the series timeline, Alessa cannot draw random people into her alternate dimensions and subsequently the town itself cannot draw people into their own Otherworlds, as it was Alessa's shenanigans that unlocked this power in the first place.

But what I'm having trouble with is the fact that Travis has been noticed by and is apparently being watched by key Order members (Dahlia, Kaufmann, Lisa) after seeing him at the fire and the hospital and obviously identifying him (they know his name and his history, so all they really need to do is swipe his ID when he faints at the fire. But then what happens to his body in the real world when he shifts? If it disappears, they must have acted very quickly). If Travis is mucking about in his own little dimension and the Order cannot see or actively track him unless Alessa allows it, what hope do they have of stopping or misleading him (not a rhetorical question, am genuinely interested)? Accepting these facts for the sake of argument, it seems that the only thing they can do is plant at least one person at each of the Flauros piece locations to try to influence or lead Travis (like Lisa). They try to lead him to his death at the Sanitarium, and when that massively backfires they try to get Lisa to seduce him at the Theater. And Kaufmann and Lisa are at the Motel because that's where the Flauros piece is. I think I get what you're implying, but I still wouldn't mind hearing your explanation.

And secondly, if what you say is true, all of the Flauros pieces have been hidden in locations in the real world, and not the Fog World or Otherworld, as no one else but Travis and Alessa have access to it. So by going there and defeating either his or Alessa's demons (memories), he can somehow access the real world, get its Flauros piece and immediately shift back to Fog World? Once again, I'm not being incredulous here. I'm genuinely confused about all this.

Your reply did come off as more than a little brusque, which is why I'm asking all these questions. Just looking for answers, that's all.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 29 Jun 2009
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the same reason y they didnt kill harry.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent

Missing since: 11 Sep 2010
Notes left: 4
helldescent wrote:
the same reason y they didnt kill harry.


Not quite. Dahlia and the Order had an actual use for Harry. Dahlia couldn't use the Flauros herself because Alessa was actively hiding from her. She gave it to Harry because Alessa's rejoined soul was still conflicted: one half desired death while the other desired life, specifically a life with her father, Harry. She would allow Harry to get close to her because this internal conflict lowered her defenses towards him (at times even leading Harry, possibly so that she could be caught and reborn, much to the chagrin of her suicidal half).

In the case of Origins, the Order had absolutely no use for Travis, who therefore cannot be seen as anything but a grave threat to their plans. He doesn't bring anything useful to the table, just a huge capacity to screw up their plans, and thus providing more than enough reason to get rid of him in any way possible.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11371
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
You also suggest that these people literally cannot touch Travis, which I immediately assumed meant physical harm instead of literal 'touching'. But if you meant the latter, I seem to remember the scene in the Theater where Lisa tries to seduce Travis and literally touches him a number of times. If this is what you meant, then what explanation is there for it? Could it just be really convincing illusion?


Alessa trusts Lisa a hell of a lot, and if she can control who Travis sees, she can control who can physically touch him, too.

Quote:
But what I'm having trouble with is the fact that Travis has been noticed by and is apparently being watched by key Order members (Dahlia, Kaufmann, Lisa) after seeing him at the fire and the hospital and obviously identifying him (they know his name and his history, so all they really need to do is swipe his ID when he faints at the fire. But then what happens to his body in the real world when he shifts? If it disappears, they must have acted very quickly). If Travis is mucking about in his own little dimension and the Order cannot see or actively track him unless Alessa allows it, what hope do they have of stopping or misleading him (not a rhetorical question, am genuinely interested)? Accepting these facts for the sake of argument, it seems that the only thing they can do is plant at least one person at each of the Flauros piece locations to try to influence or lead Travis (like Lisa). They try to lead him to his death at the Sanitarium, and when that massively backfires they try to get Lisa to seduce him at the Theater. And Kaufmann and Lisa are at the Motel because that's where the Flauros piece is. I think I get what you're implying, but I still wouldn't mind hearing your explanation.


Lisa doesn't seem to be aware of what's really going on. She certainly doesn't regard Travis as special. I don't think it's so much as "Go keep him from getting here" so much as "Take this and put it somewhere in that building." It's just Travis usually meets her soon after she completes her task.

And yes, Travis physically transported to the Otherworld. He's not dreaming somewhere.

Quote:
And secondly, if what you say is true, all of the Flauros pieces have been hidden in locations in the real world, and not the Fog World or Otherworld, as no one else but Travis and Alessa have access to it. So by going there and defeating either his or Alessa's demons (memories), he can somehow access the real world, get its Flauros piece and immediately shift back to Fog World? Once again, I'm not being incredulous here. I'm genuinely confused about all this.


The magic circles around the Flauros pieces make it look like there's some sort of ward here. Maybe they're just so that Alessa's astral form can't pick them up, or maybe Dahlia tried to put them in some sort of pocket space, not realizing Travis was on another plane of existence. Who can say for sure? In any case, yes, Travis is able to reach across any sort of dimensional boundaries as necessary.

And don't worry, it's fine for you to be so inquisitive; better than just stumbling with unsolved curiosities.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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Returning unto the topic title- Who sais that the Order didn't try to kill Travis? Remember the Bad ending: " I'm not your momma, please.. no! Sir, motel's closed for the season.. please...aaagh!" ........ Yeah.

As I see, you spread the topic a bit, so ..I have some questions-
* What do the pieces represent in accordance with the ambient and happenings? (present, paste, falsehood..) + U said that they were hidden in the real world by Dahlia, so.. did Dahlia purposely hid them in those relevant places?
* The worlds of Alessa and Travis- let's say "physical" differeces, the decor: (The hospital is rusty and bloody- like in SH1, while the Sanitarium is more like.. decaying; while the theater- that supposed to be Alessa's world- is not rusty and bloody- like the hospital; the motel -supposedly Travis' world- seems like Alessa' again... a bit confusing..)? Are their psyches just both grappling or is it something else.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
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This is going to sound a bit infantile, but....
...........................................................
...........................................................
because there wouldn't have been a game if they did?

I think the answers to some of these questions are probably randomly scattered throughout the forum, we just haven't found them all.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 31 Aug 2010
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Quote:
Alright, so Travis can see and partially interact with other people while he's in his own little pocket dimension (cross between his and Alessa's psyche/Otherworlds overlapping the real world), but they can't physically harm him. And the implication is that Travis only sees these people when Alessa allows it, like she sort of triggers a temporary shift to the real world, as communication would not be possible unless both parties can see and talk to each other (or unless they're temporarily drawn into his world, you tell me).

One thing we can be sure of is that they aren' t drawn into Travis' world : when Kaufman finally sees the Otherworld in SH1 he' s furious. "You tricked me you old bitch ! Is THAT what you call paradise ?"

Quote:
This is going to sound a bit infantile, but....
...........................................................
...........................................................
because there wouldn't have been a game if they did?

Ooooh ? You' re singing my tune now ? :D

Maybe they don' t try anything cause you don' t wanna mess with the Jack Nicholson hairy butcher trucker who chews kittens for breakfast and waves a fucking bloody axe around ?


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11371
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Returning unto the topic title- Who sais that the Order didn't try to kill Travis? Remember the Bad ending: " I'm not your momma, please.. no! Sir, motel's closed for the season.. please...aaagh!" ........ Yeah.


...Uh...what does this have to do with the Order trying to kill Travis?

Quote:
* What do the pieces represent in accordance with the ambient and happenings? (present, paste, falsehood..) + U said that they were hidden in the real world by Dahlia, so.. did Dahlia purposely hid them in those relevant places?[/quote[

Let's see, if I remember right, the one at the hospital was Present, the one at the Sanitarium was Past, the one at the Theatre Falsehood, and the one at the Motel, Future, right? The first two are pretty obvious, but I don't think Dahlia put them there because of Travis. It was just a coincidence. The Falsehood one represents the Theatre (and the fact that it has to do with Alessa, not Travis), and the Future one represents....uh...fuck if I know, letting go of the past?

Quote:
* The worlds of Alessa and Travis- let's say "physical" differeces, the decor: (The hospital is rusty and bloody- like in SH1, while the Sanitarium is more like.. decaying; while the theater- that supposed to be Alessa's world- is not rusty and bloody- like the hospital; the motel -supposedly Travis' world- seems like Alessa' again... a bit confusing..)? Are their psyches just both grappling or is it something else.


It's really all just kind of mixed together. It's not that one part is Alessa's, and another is Travis'.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
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Quote:
Returning unto the topic title- Who sais that the Order didn't try to kill Travis? Remember the Bad ending: " I'm not your momma, please.. no! Sir, motel's closed for the season.. please...aaagh!" ........ Yeah.


AuraTwilight wrote:
...Uh...what does this have to do with the Order trying to kill Travis?

It does. Why couldn't the order just kill Travis?- that's the topic title. But how do you know that some of the monsters are not in fact the people from the order, seen as monsters by Travis or perhaps even better: by Alessa, since she hated so much these people.


AuraTwilight wrote:
The first two are pretty obvious, but I don't think Dahlia put them there because of Travis. It was just a coincidence. The Falsehood one represents the Theatre (and the fact that it has to do with Alessa, not Travis), and the Future one represents....uh...fuck if I know, letting go of the past?


You see, if a harder question is made, the answer doesn't have to be forced. I tried to understand, but.. that really doesn't make any sense.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
It does. Why couldn't the order just kill Travis?- that's the topic title. But how do you know that some of the monsters are not in fact the people from the order, seen as monsters by Travis or perhaps even better: by Alessa, since she hated so much these people.


The monsters are not humans. I mean, unless you want to argue that 600 pound fatasses were laying in the road, or there were a bunch of nurses who were wigging out on crack and decided to attack him first. The "monsters=humans" idea has been discussed to death, and it always works out dumb. And besides, Alessa doesn't "hate" all these people. Infact, she loves the person who's done the most harm to her. She retreats into the Otherworld to escape from them, not to get revenge.

It still doesn't explain the quote in the Bad Ending, anyway, or Travis' behavior in general, since it implies an entirely different personality.

Quote:
You see, if a harder question is made, the answer doesn't have to be forced. I tried to understand, but.. that really doesn't make any sense.


Present = Hospital = Alessa is in the hospital, she's the reason Travis is here, the centerfold of the present plot. Yadda yadda.

Past = Sanitarium = Travis's mom. Childhood trauma and stuff. Easy.

Falsehood = Theatre = Made-up fantasy. Stuff that doesn't have anything to do with Travis, and is thus a false stop on his personal journey.

Future = Hotel = The last part of his soul he needs to clear. The past he needs to defeat to open up both his and Alessa's futures.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
Notes left: 2249
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^Thank you for reminding me that the falsehood piece was in the theater level. That was driving me insane.
I couldn't figure out the significance of that level.
(Now it kinda makes me wonder if those don't correspond to the Kabbalistic four worlds ;) )

Anyway, are we figuring anything out in here, or what?

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
Kabbalistic four worlds


I'd say it does, except for Falsehood implying the Qlippoth.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Nov 2010
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In my opinion, the reason they didn't try to kill Travis is because Alessa wouldn't let them, even though it doesn't look like it, Alessa has alot more control over the town than the cult. She's just too innocent to realize her power's full potential, that's why Daliha tries to use her power. All Alessa wants is to please her mother because she craves affection, I think that's the reason she let her self be burned, if she really wanted to she could have reversed the effects of the fire and burned her mother instead. I'm not saying Alessa is an idiot, but I'm saying she's a child, I don't think many single seven year old girls, no matter how abused, could hurt their mother when theyr'e that young.
...
Ok, I'm wayofftopic, but yeah, Alessa is the reason that Travis can't be hurt by the Order,

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
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One thing I still haven't worked out is how Dahlia knows Travis's name, to place the Flauros piece in the sanitarium where his mother was kept, and the motel room where his father offed himself. Of course, Kaufmann seemed to be familiar with those two locations, as well as the hospital, but it's a bizarre coincidence that they also have significance for Travis. And I can accept that Lisa placed the falsehood piece in the theater because she liked the place, and I guess Dahlia may have known about the incident their regarding Alessa giving the actor a nosebleed.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
KiramidHead wrote:
One thing I still haven't worked out is how Dahlia knows Travis's name, to place the Flauros piece in the sanitarium where his mother was kept, and the motel room where his father offed himself. Of course, Kaufmann seemed to be familiar with those two locations, as well as the hospital, but it's a bizarre coincidence that they also have significance for Travis. And I can accept that Lisa placed the falsehood piece in the theater because she liked the place, and I guess Dahlia may have known about the incident their regarding Alessa giving the actor a nosebleed.

I think Dahlia knew Travis's name the same way she knew Harry and Cheryl would arrive. She might not have any power of her own, but she has ways of finding things out (divination or whatever it was).
As for hiding the Flauros pieces, I don't think they were hidden at the hotel and sanitarium because they meant something to Travis. That wouldn't make sense. They didn't want him to find them, so why hide them in places with such significance to Alessa's pawn? I think you were right when you said they were at the hotel and the Sanitarium because Kaufmann was familiar with those places. It's just a coincidence that Travis was connected to those places.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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It was foretold by gyromancy.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Why couldn't The Order just kill Travis? (SPOILERS, gent
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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If you ask me, the places aren't connected completely just to Travis.. The sanitarium-- you see Lisa was called to go there (by Kauffman).. as she was present in the teather 'cause she loved it.. and same thing with the motel- called to meet Kauffman for some "internal business".
Maybe Dahlia's intention wasn't to put these pieces in those significative places for Travis.. And maybe, even if he did it wouldn't be so important 'cause :"Even if your misguided help she can't stop us now.."
I'm also not so shure about the cut-scene in the Sanitarium before the mommy boss, where Lisa sympathizes his mother- and she talks in the Present Simple, like it's happening right now, like Helen is in that cell that very moment. Is it maybe Alessa's mediation that has some control over Lisa.. in SH1 she really is influenced by Alessa's world..

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Historical Society Historian
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Or Helen really is in there (Though that doesn't mean he fought the actual Helen, they're in different dimensions).

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