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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>She shows up in his side mirror as an astral projection. I think it's safe to say she was reaching out.<
If she has that much foresight, she should have known Dahlia was about to set her on fire. I think people are giving Alessa too much power—power she probably doesn't have.

>the preparation of a body that could be declared dead. At the scene.<
Only that isn't hinted at. The guidebook suggests the substitute body was used at the hospital. Like I've said before: You can't really use content from the material in question as evidence to prove the material in question shouldn't be contentious. That's like trying to prove the Tanakh was written by G-d by using the Tanakh as evidence.

The use of the word "impulsively" was done to accompany that flashback scene in Silent Hill. They are bundled together. She performs the ritual impulsively, and then later has to cover her tracks, thus the use of the substitute body. If the substitute body was already at the house, the word "impulsively" would not be needed to describe Dahlia's actions. "She impulsively carried out the ritual in her own basement" does not mean she impulsively decided to carry out the ritual. It means she performed the ritual at that moment, on impulse.

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 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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The Adversary wrote:
>She shows up in his side mirror as an astral projection. I think it's safe to say she was reaching out.<
If she has that much foresight, she should have known Dahlia was about to set her on fire. I think people are giving Alessa too much power—power she probably doesn't have.

Whether she knew what Dahlia was doing or not, she was still trapped in the house and needed help. What other purpose could her appearance serve?

If the game states that Alessa was declared dead at the scene, and the guidebook does not contradict this (you can choose to read it as Kaufmann preparing the body at Alchemilla, but that isn't definitively stated), there's no reason to declare the game's statement an oversight or a retcon.

"Kaufmann prepared a substitute body and possibly performed the 'autopsy'" is hardly "Kaufmann prepared a substitute body, which never left Alchemilla and didn't come within five miles of the Gillespie home." The only conflict with what Origins presents is one you're choosing to read into the guidebook's statement.

And the only time the word "impulsively" appears in the guidebook, it refers to Dahlia's choice of location for the immolation ritual.
Silent Hill Official Guidebook Complete Edition wrote:
Although it seems the cult has a place they use for rituals, Dahlia was confident that she would be able to summon the malevolent deity if Alessa was the surrogate mother; therefore, as it was not necessary to choose a location, she impulsively carried out the ritual in her own basement. The ritual process involved a great deal of fire, which consequently escalated into a conflagration.


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>there's no reason to declare the game's statement an oversight or a retcon.<
There is when it directly contradicts what's written in the guidebook (re: "impulsively" and "cellar" ).

>And the only time the word "impulsively" appears in the guidebook, it refers to Dahlia's choice of location for the immolation ritual.<
It refers to her carrying out the ritual impulsively, not impulsively choosing where the ritual is carried out, nor impulsively deciding to carry out the ritual.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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If you look only at the four words following "impulsively," I could see how you'd reach that conclusion. However, reading that passage as a whole (or even that sentence as a whole) makes it plain that the entire subject of discussion is the location of the ritual. The question being answered is "What was the cause of the fire seven years ago?" Short answer: Dahlia's impulsive (as in careless) choice of location.

Although it seems the cult has a place they use for rituals. . .
(here's a large hint about the topic of this sentence)

. . .Dahlia was confident that she would be able to summon the malevolent deity if Alessa was the surrogate mother. . .
(the reason she didn't care about burning her own house down)

. . .therefore, as it was not necessary to choose a location, she impulsively carried out the ritual in her own basement.
Two more reminders of the topic of discussion. This is all still the same sentence.

The ritual process involved a great deal of fire, which consequently escalated into a conflagration. Incidentally, there is information in the game about "six houses that burned down in the business district". . .
This is the consequence of an impulsive choice of location.

The Adversary wrote:
The guidebook suggests the substitute body was used at the hospital.

alone in the town wrote:
An implication, by its very nature, cannot be retconned.

:P


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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The semi-colon separates the idea. It's not all about the location.

Of course, none of this matters because Alessa was in the basement and doesn't have the power to reanimate a corpse.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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If there's one lesson I took away from those tiresome debates over the nature of the Holy Woman in White, it's that Alessa can have any goddamn superpower you want her to have, from reincarnating herself while still alive to instantly healing herself of hideous, disfiguring wounds and yet still die moments later from them. By this point, I wouldn't be surprised if she could make colors smell like sound by snapping her fingers.

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 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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The Adversary wrote:
The semi-colon separates the idea. It's not all about the location.

Two of the indicators of location—including the word "location"—appear after the semi-colon. Just which part of the sentence is supposed to inexplicably change topic?

We could endlessly nitpick this trivial piece of punctuation from the English translation of the guidebook, but at this point I think it's pretty clear that you're reading your own meaning, and therefore your own plothole, into the sentence. My theory concerning Kaufmann's substitute body can exist in harmony with established facts if I choose to read the word "impulsively" in context, rather than form a general impression of events based on a common connotation of the word.

Similarly, general impressions concerning Alessa's powers are not facts, and the creators of the games are free to add to them as they see fit. So long as such additions enhance the story, I'm totally okay with it.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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I'm not sure anymore about what do I think but if you ask me I'd rather believe they screwed up the syntax of the sentence by using the word "impulsive" than the location of the Holy Mother's body and creating a retcon.

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Last edited by mikefile on 10 May 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
Lemme see..

Lost Memories;
Quote:
In the town of Silent Hill, a power exists that gives discernable form to
peoples' innermost thoughts. As for the otherworld that appears in the series,
the town is not merely showing the characters their nightmares, but actually
manifesting elements of their unconscious minds.


Quote:
In the third game, the otherworld appears even in the shopping mall and subway,
outside of the town called Silent Hill. It is possible that this is due to
Claudia's abilities. However, if one imagines that the human mind is where the
otherworld dwells and holds power, then perhaps the shift to the otherside could occur regardless of the location
.


Quote:
Creator's Commentary: The shift to the otherworld that takes place outside the town depends entirely upon a unique power. The power that absorbs and reflects what people hold in their hearts is established as being exclusive to the town of Silent Hill.



Image

I'm thinking, it can appear anywhere and is about the same as someone being asleep, which goes back to the 1st game and the implication in the Koshiki guide book that the shifts are based on Alessa's REM sleep. (Alessa's nightmare; She's the only one "sleeping" in the series and still in the otherworld. By logic, her dream is THE otherworld. This goes back to what Jeremy said. It also goes back to the multiple religious inspiration Owaku had.) Silent Hill's other world is unique because it also shows what's in peoples' hearts as opposed to just showing them what's in their minds.

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Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Mar 2010
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I see I need to visit Mr. Blaustein's facebook page more often. Jeremy's the man, haha.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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^Isn't he? He's such a smart ass, and I love it. Seriously, after reading his posts my admiration for him grew ten fold. ;D

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
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Edea wrote:
Image


I'm not even ashamed to admit that I choked on pasta from laughing at that top screen cap.

I've never seem him like this before. I like it. XD

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Thank you for understanding. <3

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21367&p=674128#p674128


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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The cellar contradiction that's evident in Origins by moving the ritual to the attic honestly isn't even a big deal. It doesn't have any effects on the storyline as a whole. The ritual still takes place, Alessa is still burned, trapped in a nightmare she cannot awaken from, and the house still burns down regardless of whether or not it was in the cellar or attic. It's just a very small bump like the road sign error in SH2. Nothing worth thinking too much about. Mistakes happen and nobody is perfect.

The bigger contradiction is how Alessa is able to project herself before Cheryl was ever created. Then again if people wanted to they could say Alessa being able to project herself in distant places like Origins showcases has nothing to do with her soul being split and is just one of the powers she, for some reason, always had. Heather in SH3 did mention that she had powers.

That's the only real somewhat feasible idea I can come up with for that storyline contradiction, but think you want.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 03 Sep 2009
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Quote:
The cellar contradiction that's evident in Origins by moving the ritual to the attic honestly isn't even a big deal. It doesn't have any effects on the storyline as a whole. The ritual still takes place, Alessa is still burned, trapped in a nightmare she cannot awaken from, and the house still burns down regardless of whether or not it was in the cellar or attic.

What do you mean? Girl was burned in the cellar, after that Dahlia moved Alessa's body to the second floor.
Image

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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X-rust wrote:
Girl was burned in the cellar, after that Dahlia moved Alessa's body to the second floor.
And you can cover this fact by using what kind of evidence?
There was a simple theory that stated that the girl Travis finds is not Alessa. But no mention of Dahlia moving bodies. How did you come to the conclusion?

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 03 Sep 2009
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Quote:
How did you come to the conclusion?

Image

Fireproof fabric?

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 24 Nov 2011
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More likely just a developer oversight. It would just beg the question of why Dahlia would move her to the attic. What purpose would it serve? She could have just done the ritual in the cellar. And there's nothing in the game that implies she was moved from the cellar to the attic anyway. But in the end it really doesn't matter where the ritual takes place as long as it take place. I couldn't care less if it taking place in the attic contradicts earlier materials because it's not important to the overall story.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 03 Sep 2009
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Quote:
It would just beg the question of why Dahlia would move her to the attic. What purpose would it serve?

Special ritual place? Candles, Halo of The Sun.
Image
Anyway, there is no fire in this place. Alessa cannot burned there.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
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Oh for christssake;

Image

The cellar MEMO is a red herring. The other references could be mistranslations... However, they don't explain this pre+Origin pic.

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Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A point that Fungo brought up...*spoilers*
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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That picture is a pretty good counterargument. But that glow could be anything, honestly. I mean, Seven Year Old Cheryl is in the picture, and we know Dahlia was keeping Alessa's body somewhere (their old house, even) while trying to track down her spirit. Maybe those are just...lights.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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