winter becomes silent hill

Post by **Sake** » 27 Apr 2009

KageReneko wrote:Maybe not Alessa, but Silent Hill 2 has a lot of influence of the Order... Pyramid Head painting is obviously a fragment of the cult's dogma... ALso the rithual of bring back the dead people comes from the order itself...

Silent Hill 4 had just as little influence, if not more.

Post by **Kenji** » 27 Apr 2009

KageReneko wrote:Are you saying that God and Valtiel aren't related with the Native Americans? Maybe the Order created them when they created their religion... That's stupid... Why would they worship a God that they just created? The Order obviously has information in thw antique dogma and created theior dogma after them...

Is obvious that the Silent Hill deities always have existed and the Native Americans worshipped them in the old times... The name of the deity isn't relevant...

Actually, it isn't obvious. More than once has it been suggested that the God is nothing more than another monster, manifested from the minds of those who expect it. This suggestion is even in Lost Memories in regards to SH3.

As for Valtiel, I've suggested in my support of the "Father of God" theory that he's a placeholder for the Conjurer, who was originally supposed to participate in a single ritual with Alessa. His appearance is a chicken-and-egg paradox, since cult artwork depicts Valtiel as that flesh being, but Silent Hill manifests delusions... which came first, the flesh puppet or the idea of the flesh puppet?

As for whether people will worship gods that are made up... well, I won't go after the major monotheistic religions, but let me ask you this: Does Zeus exist? Was the Earth created when Marduk slew Tiamat? Is the Sun a chariot that is ridden across the sky?

Of course people will believe in made-up deities, especially if there's questions they don't have the answers to. If you want evidence of people believing in stuff that was made up within the last generation, take a gander at Scientology.

I think you also need to be clear about the difference between dogma and ritual. The rituals that the current Order engages in are descended from the native tradition (which are still in the process of being researched, if books like Lost Memories are any indication), but the dogma isn't. The dogma is descended from orthodox (not to be confused with Orthodox) Christianity.

Post by **Droo** » 27 Apr 2009

Valtiel did not exist at the time SH2 came out. The whole PH-robes are a reference to Valtiel thing was an ex post facto retcon. Same thing with the source of the Order's religion. In SH1, all we know is crazy doomsday religion of an undetermined size, trying to birth a God from Alessa. It was all very vague.

Any connections SH2 has subsequently been made to have to the Order are also after-the-fact. Originally at the time when SH2 came out, the fans were somewhat stupified by the total lack of connection between SH1 and SH2. Heck, for a long time there were debates about whether the game was taking place after, before, or simultaneously with SH1.

Post by **The Adversary** » 27 Apr 2009

>the rithual of bring back the dead people comes from the order itself...
No, the ritual of the resurrection of the deceased is a belief from the Natives, not The Order.

NothingLikeSleep · Post by **NothingLikeSleep** » 27 Apr 2009

I WANT TO PLAY THIS GAME NOW AUGAHAGHEHAGH

Post by **KageReneko** » 28 Apr 2009

Do you mean that Valtiel and God are just more creatures made by the town?

So... What's the point of bring to live a God that isn't real? Why did Dahlia implanted God's seed inside Alessa if the God wasn't real since the first?

I understand that maybe the God that we fight is just a representation of the desires of the order and blah blah blah but then the whole Order doesn't have a sense...

Also, Valtiel can't be just another creature cause he has special powers that the other creatures don't have...

http://www.translatedmemories.com/bookpgs/Pg84-85.jpg

This page says that Valtiel was in the native dogma, so this means that his existence was in the sacred land a lot of time vefore the events of Silent Hill 3... The page also says that Pyramid Head appearance was made after Valtiel...

I'm not saying that the Order has the exact dogma than the Native AMericans, the dogma has changed but the core is almosty the same... The deities are the same...

About syncretic religions
There is no religion that has
remained unchanged from the
moment it was founded.
This one is no execption.

When this religion fell into the
hands of immigrants, it was deeply
influenced by their own original
Christian beliefs.

For example, the traditional
representatives of these primal
gods may be given the names and
descriptions of Christian angels.
This shared characteristics being
to appear.

(There is also one rare example
of the chief deity, "Creator of
Paradise" or "Lord of Serpents
and Reeds", being dubbed with
a demon's name. Of course, this
was not done by believers, but
by their opponents.)

I can't believe that the original dogma was just erased since some of the rituals and mithology are almost the same... The Native had this land as a holy place by a reason, not just cause they got lost in the fog (In that case the area would be a forbidden place)... The God always was there, same that Valtiel cause this The natives worshipped them and the area...

Obviously, we see in SH3 and 4 how the times still xhanging the dogma creating new branches and more... But the core still being the same, they still adoring the deities of the native dogma and even still performing their rituals (The ritual that Walter performed, I can't remember the name)

Now, if Climax really wanted to make the Silent Hill Fans gappy they could force a but their brains and create a history about all this stuff and all the previous hundred of years that happened before the modern age...

[quote=Droo]Valtiel did not exist at the time SH2 came out. The whole PH-robes are a reference to Valtiel thing was an ex post facto retcon. Same thing with the source of the Order's religion. In SH1, all we know is crazy doomsday religion of an undetermined size, trying to birth a God from Alessa. It was all very vague.[/quote]

Almost every gamer starts in this way, look at Metal Gear... Kojima never intended to make sequels of the original MSX games but he did it and the story grow wider... Will you say that all the sequels don't have sense just cause the first game never expanded in that? A story evolves with time... When Dragon Ball started Toriyama never imagined to turn Son Gokuh into an alien, he just made the story evolve, added new concepts and was carefully to make those events to slightly fiot with the original plotline...

Is the same for Silent Hill...

Post by **Kenji** » 28 Apr 2009

KageReneko wrote:So... What's the point of bring to live a God that isn't real? Why did Dahlia implanted God's seed inside Alessa if the God wasn't real since the first?

The same reason why bulls were sacrificed in Zeus's honor: Dahlia obviously believed in God. The difference is that, since the power of Silent Hill is involved, her belief (along with Alessa's, as she also believed) gave God form.

To hit closer to the here and now, there's a fringe of Christians who want to arrange the international political situation in the Middle East such that Jesus is forced to descend from Heaven. They won't admit it, but it's tantamount to a black magic spell that requires the suffering of millions to complete. It's almost certain that the suffering involved, and the political and social consequences, will be the only result of this endeavor, but that doesn't stop them from trying.

I understand that maybe the God that we fight is just a representation of the desires of the order and blah blah blah but then the whole Order doesn't have a sense...

There are uncountable thousands of religions whose gods aren't real. In the future, there'll be countless others. I wouldn't be surprised if scholars from the future will look back at our quaint beliefs and wonder how so many of us could possibly have believed the things we do.

The social purpose of religion, ignoring whether it's right or wrong, is to provide a cement that keeps a society together. The Order is no different: it's what keeps the Silent Hill community cohesive. They just happen to inhabit a lake-based Psycho Hazard that makes their faith seem more real than everyone else's.

This page says that Valtiel was in the native dogma, so this means that his existence was in the sacred land a lot of time vefore the events of Silent Hill 3... The page also says that Pyramid Head appearance was made after Valtiel...

No, it says that Valtiel is part of the "long-standing religious tradition of Silent Hill." This is not the same thing as saying that the natives believed in him. For one, the town wasn't called Silent Hill until the second set of settlers arrived (the ones who would create the Order). More than that, it keeps talking about how Valtiel is equated with an angel, and the Native Americans did not believe in angels (except for those who converted to Christianity).

The fact of the matter is that the names do matter. Naming a god "God" carries a certain weight that's unique to the Judeo-Christian tradition, one that wasn't present in Native American animism. Likewise, the concept of Valtiel, the "Valet of God" as his name suggests, also relies on the paradoxical concept of active servitude to an omnipotent being that only the Judeo-Christian tradition contains. These concepts, along with the dualistic notions of judgment, sin, and paradise, are all part and parcel of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

The main carryover from native beliefs is the concept of a cyclical world (as opposed to the Judeo-Christian linear world). Even then, this doesn't mean that the settlers knew much about the natives' beliefs, since there were a huge number of tribes that had that general concept in their traditions and all the Toluca area really suggested was that the natives might be onto something.

Remember that the natives had disappeared before the settlers arrived. Also remember that books like Lost Memories (the in-game version) were written in such a way as to imply that knowledge of these ceremonies wasn't complete, even after nearly two centuries of Order history.

The only thing, the only thing that we know about the natives' beliefs is that they could communicate with the dead and that they had a ritual to bring the dead back to life (we don't even know if that ritual actually works). Considering the other Native American traditions around them, this actually isn't that unusual. Their Psycho Hazard wasn't even that particularly strong, since things only got twisted after the epidemics, executions, and the large-scale shift caused by Alessa.

Post by **Kyou** » 28 Apr 2009

That hooker creature with iron cowboy boots looked scarier than any monster I've seen so far in Silent Hill games.

Post by **DistantJ** » 29 Apr 2009

On the original topic, Winter is a separte game, it's still being developed. They recently revamped the whole thing and now it's getting a release (it had been previously thought to be canned because it hadn't found a publisher).

Post by **Kyou** » 29 Apr 2009

Can't wait for it to get out

Post by **Ratiocinator** » 03 May 2009

Something else of interest:
http://kotaku.com/5236600/feel-shows-ho ... ld-be-done

Post by **Krysta** » 03 May 2009

forget about this game check out the new Grudge movies based game. It's really amazing, and graphic really stands out for a wii. Rarely it happens but I am amazed. SM can hide in closet in case of design I'm afraid

Post by **syntheticlung** » 03 May 2009

Ratiocinator wrote:Something else of interest:
http://kotaku.com/5236600/feel-shows-ho ... ld-be-done

Yup, it's already been posted here.

Post by **_Drake_** » 03 May 2009

Eh, I still prefer Shattered Memories to Feel, but I'm still going to check it out because I loved the Japanese Grudge Movies.

~Drake

Post by **Actraiser** » 03 May 2009

Hmm...it looks like that hell may just have frozen over....

Post by **Kenji** » 04 May 2009

I say bring it on! The more atmospheric horror games on the Wii, the better!

Now I need to start filling my mind with good Gundam games in the hopes that they start siphoning those out...

Post by **zombiejesus** » 02 Jun 2009

ok sorry to disapoint anyone but i truly think they recycled winters gaming code for sh:sm watch these videos. they're VERY similar.

winter:
http://wii.ign.com/dor/objects/14315298 ... pn2rqstnar

sh:sm:
http://wii.ign.com/dor/objects/14325477 ... 60109.html

Post by **DistantJ** » 03 Jun 2009

lol zombiejesus, it makes no sense whatsoever - it's two seperate development teams, and Winter is still in development. Winter was recently given an overhaul and they're seeking a publisher.

Post by **Loveless_Dogg** » 03 Jun 2009

Well, I guess people have forgotten about another game called "Cold Mountain" or at least haven't heard of it. It's only slightly more similar to "Shattered Memories" than "Winter".

Post by **syntheticlung** » 04 Jun 2009

Loveless_Dogg wrote:Well, I guess people have forgotten about another game called "Cold Mountain" or at least haven't heard of it. It's only slightly more similar to "Shattered Memories" than "Winter".

I don't know why but I'm just not interested in Cold Mountain, don't get me wrong I want to be, but I haven't seen anything of that game yet that makes me feel like "Wow! I'm hanging out for that game".

But yeah, I think zombiejesus was making a bit of a failed assumption.
sorry bud, didn't pay off this time.