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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Kaufmann and SH1
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Aug 2008
Notes left: 127
Last seen at: Over the Rainbow
I have a question for those of you who support the idea that SM follows the Bad ending from SH1...

What is Kaufmann doing in SH1? I was initially intrigued by the idea that SM is what would happen if the Bad ending was canon. SH1 could be interpreted, then, as a really weird expression of all of Harry's worries and fears following his divorce--his extremely negative view of his wife, coupled with concerns for his daughter, guilt over his extramarital sex and painting himself as a hero-daddy.

But... Kaufmann.

SM Kaufmann is very abrasive as a person, but ultimately his job is to help people. He does this effectively, albeit with some unusual methods. Harry's version of him is a lot sleazier; he's involved in drug dealing and... well, you guys already know all that.

I don't know why he is even in SH1, then, and why he is portrayed that way. A friend said to me during a discussion of this very issue that perhaps Harry felt guilty and wanted to blame Lisa, ultimately using Kaufmann to punish her.

But WHY Kaufmann?

There isn't really any reason to believe that he has been involved with the Mason family before, as least as far as I'm concerned. If anyone has any arguments to the contrary, I'm very interested to hear them.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 30 Sep 2009
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Edit: those things i said didn't make much sence to your post, i misinterpreted it, sorry
Here's new:
Silent Hill 1's worlds doesn't have any connection to Harry Mason; as those worlds were crreated by Alessa Gillespie. Note that all of the monsters are fears, loves, hates of Alessa and not Harry's. There are no monsters that represent his failure of marriage, guilt, etc.
Above all, in the first Silent Hill Harry Mason said that his wife died couple of years ago, as in SHSM he never mentions that (correct me if im wrong).

But that's just my opinion about it; you don't have to feel attacked by me :P

P.S. even creators said that SHSM is put in another universe than the rest of the series.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 19 Aug 2008
Notes left: 127
Last seen at: Over the Rainbow
Yeah, but some people are interpreting SM as following the Bad ending of SH1, but I kind of think that Kaufmann is an issue that might be irreconcilable.

In the SH1 - SH3 canon, the Otherworld is created by Alessa and we find a lot of the elements in her room. But if you assume the Bad ending is true, then it was all in Harry's head as he was dying--so, in Harry's head, Alessa created the Otherworld, but really none of that ever happened.

I don't feel attacked. No worries.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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There are fundamental things wrong with it following the bad ending of SH1, though. In Silent Hill 1:

-Harry did not live in Silent Hill
-Cheryl was adopted
-Harry did not know anybody by the name of Kauffman before he entered Silent Hill


There is no way to explain the discrepancies between my first two points and Shattered Memories other than "BUT HE WAS DELUDED HE COULD HAVE CHANGED IT", which could also potentially be an explanation for Dahlia in SH1 vs. Dahlia in Shattered Memories. I don't buy it.

As for Kauffman, I agree that he's one of the bigger points. There is no way he could have known Kauffman before Shattered Memories, because Cheryl had no need for a therapist. It could be a major coincidence that he imagined someone named Kauffman, but I highly, highly doubt it. (For the record, in case anyone tries to say it's possible he met him: I should think that would be a very, very important plot point that would be even just slightly mentioned in Shattered Memories. It isn't, so I highly doubt that the two ever met.)

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Historical Society Historian
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Not to mention the age difference is too large for the two to have known each other in school, as I've seen proposed.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 25 Dec 2009
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I agree, but that won't stop people from thinking, since if you try hard enough, anyone can think of a way around things, as long as the source doesn't officially say no.

Example: Harry could have been seeing Dr. K about his failing marriage. Oh, but what about his wife's death that he explains in SH1? And she's still alive in SM??? Well, it was all in Cheryl's head, and that was all a past session. But this was the first session, and she never met Dr. K, thus why is he in SH1 then? Well, maybe SH1 wasn't a session, and was instead Chery's Nightmare before she met Dr. K, but was going to meet doctor Dr. K, thus she knew a Dr. K, etc. etc. etc. Or SH1 was all in the same session as SM, and we simply didn't see it, and she imagined him as a drug dealing doctor who helped out a cult....

Think "Chariots of the Gods". As long as no facts say otherwise, you can say aliens built the pyramids.

But to be honest, I do like the idea of SM somehow being canon with the series, yet still starting it's own. A part of me wishes it was Heather years after SH3 going through that session. But after reading all the theories, and what would have to be what in order for SM to be canon with SH1, I'd just rather it be non-canon.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 16 Sep 2009
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Not to mention the age difference is too large for the two to have known each other in school, as I've seen proposed.
Also the fact of the original Mrs. Mason, who died young, unlike SM Dahlia. In the end, SM is supposed to be a reboot in its own universe. It would have been neat if the designers made the game in such a way that one could fit it in with the Bad Ending, but there are just too many contradictions with that theory.


Last edited by Apocali on 10 Jan 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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TMALIVE wrote:
I agree, but that won't stop people from thinking, since if you try hard enough, anyone can think of a way around things, as long as the source doesn't officially say no.

Example: Harry could have been seeing Dr. K about his failing marriage. Oh, but what about his wife's death that he explains in SH1? And she's still alive in SM??? Well, it was all in Cheryl's head, and that was all a past session. But this was the first session, and she never met Dr. K, thus why is he in SH1 then? Well, maybe SH1 wasn't a session, and was instead Chery's Nightmare before she met Dr. K, but was going to meet doctor Dr. K, thus she knew a Dr. K, etc. etc. etc. Or SH1 was all in the same session as SM, and we simply didn't see it, and she imagined him as a drug dealing doctor who helped out a cult....

Think "Chariots of the Gods". As long as no facts say otherwise, you can say aliens built the pyramids.

But to be honest, I do like the idea of SM somehow being canon with the series, yet still starting it's own. A part of me wishes it was Heather years after SH3 going through that session. But after reading all the theories, and what would have to be what in order for SM to be canon with SH1, I'd just rather it be non-canon.


The thing is, that theory is completely unfounded. There's a difference between a theory and complete conjecture, which that theory (which I've seen as an actual theory before, or stuff similar to it) fits the former. There's nothing to suggest Harry ever knew Kauffman, and that is an important plot point that would be explored in one of the two existing games. Not to mention that we know for a fact Shattered Memories is Cheryl's first time meeting Kauffman and that we see the therapy session itself. I treat the Harry gameplay segments as metaphors for what Cheryl is going through as she speaks about her experiences, not as her saying "I see my daddy running from the monsters!" and such, but there is nothing in the game to suggest that we hear about Silent Hill 1 whatsoever.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 25 Dec 2009
Notes left: 39
Yuki wrote:
TMALIVE wrote:
I agree, but that won't stop people from thinking, since if you try hard enough, anyone can think of a way around things, as long as the source doesn't officially say no.

Example: Harry could have been seeing Dr. K about his failing marriage. Oh, but what about his wife's death that he explains in SH1? And she's still alive in SM??? Well, it was all in Cheryl's head, and that was all a past session. But this was the first session, and she never met Dr. K, thus why is he in SH1 then? Well, maybe SH1 wasn't a session, and was instead Chery's Nightmare before she met Dr. K, but was going to meet doctor Dr. K, thus she knew a Dr. K, etc. etc. etc. Or SH1 was all in the same session as SM, and we simply didn't see it, and she imagined him as a drug dealing doctor who helped out a cult....

Think "Chariots of the Gods". As long as no facts say otherwise, you can say aliens built the pyramids.

But to be honest, I do like the idea of SM somehow being canon with the series, yet still starting it's own. A part of me wishes it was Heather years after SH3 going through that session. But after reading all the theories, and what would have to be what in order for SM to be canon with SH1, I'd just rather it be non-canon.


The thing is, that theory is completely unfounded. There's a difference between a theory and complete conjecture, which that theory (which I've seen as an actual theory before, or stuff similar to it) fits the former. There's nothing to suggest Harry ever knew Kauffman, and that is an important plot point that would be explored in one of the two existing games. Not to mention that we know for a fact Shattered Memories is Cheryl's first time meeting Kauffman and that we see the therapy session itself. I treat the Harry gameplay segments as metaphors for what Cheryl is going through as she speaks about her experiences, not as her saying "I see my daddy running from the monsters!" and such, but there is nothing in the game to suggest that we hear about Silent Hill 1 whatsoever.


That's what I mean. As long as the official source doesn't says otherwise, you can link whatever with whatever with whatever facts you have, and whatever facts that aren't mentioned, in order to make a theory work.

About what Tomm Hulett said, I think they started with "it's non-canon" because that's how they designed it. Then someone told him, "Well, what about the Bad Ending of Silent Hill 1?" which then had him say that it could be possible to make it canonical. But if he read the theories of what would have to be done for that to happen, I think he'd say, "Ya, it's just non-canon."


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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TMALIVE wrote:
Yuki wrote:
TMALIVE wrote:
I agree, but that won't stop people from thinking, since if you try hard enough, anyone can think of a way around things, as long as the source doesn't officially say no.

Example: Harry could have been seeing Dr. K about his failing marriage. Oh, but what about his wife's death that he explains in SH1? And she's still alive in SM??? Well, it was all in Cheryl's head, and that was all a past session. But this was the first session, and she never met Dr. K, thus why is he in SH1 then? Well, maybe SH1 wasn't a session, and was instead Chery's Nightmare before she met Dr. K, but was going to meet doctor Dr. K, thus she knew a Dr. K, etc. etc. etc. Or SH1 was all in the same session as SM, and we simply didn't see it, and she imagined him as a drug dealing doctor who helped out a cult....

Think "Chariots of the Gods". As long as no facts say otherwise, you can say aliens built the pyramids.

But to be honest, I do like the idea of SM somehow being canon with the series, yet still starting it's own. A part of me wishes it was Heather years after SH3 going through that session. But after reading all the theories, and what would have to be what in order for SM to be canon with SH1, I'd just rather it be non-canon.


The thing is, that theory is completely unfounded. There's a difference between a theory and complete conjecture, which that theory (which I've seen as an actual theory before, or stuff similar to it) fits the former. There's nothing to suggest Harry ever knew Kauffman, and that is an important plot point that would be explored in one of the two existing games. Not to mention that we know for a fact Shattered Memories is Cheryl's first time meeting Kauffman and that we see the therapy session itself. I treat the Harry gameplay segments as metaphors for what Cheryl is going through as she speaks about her experiences, not as her saying "I see my daddy running from the monsters!" and such, but there is nothing in the game to suggest that we hear about Silent Hill 1 whatsoever.


That's what I mean. As long as the official source doesn't says otherwise, you can link whatever with whatever with whatever facts you have, and whatever facts that aren't mentioned, in order to make a theory work.

About what Tomm Hulett said, I think they started with "it's non-canon" because that's how they designed it. Then someone told him, "Well, what about the Bad Ending of Silent Hill 1?" which then had him say that it could be possible to make it canonical. But if he read the theories of what would have to be done for that to happen, I think he'd say, "Ya, it's just non-canon."


Honestly, to me, his statement seemed more of a "WAIT A SECOND FANS MIGHT BE PISSED IT'S AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE SO LET'S JUST SAY IT MIGHT BE EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE PROBLEMS!" rather than a real statement of non-canonicity.

The thing is, though, most theories depend on facts and then inferences. When you completely disregard anything and say "I BET HARRY KNEW HIM IN HIGH SCHOOL", that's blatantly making something up.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 29 May 2009
Notes left: 223
Last seen at: Colombia
^You can't take developer's mistakes as facts, though. Yes, it sounded like that to me, but just sayin' that "developers said it was AU!" is someting totally wrong.

We could take the game as AU, or have fantasies of how it links to the first game. According to the official word of the developers, one is as factible as the other one.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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Escapist wrote:
^You can't take developer's mistakes as facts, though. Yes, it sounded like that to me, but just sayin' that "developers said it was AU!" is someting totally wrong.

We could take the game as AU, or have fantasies of how it links to the first game. According to the official word of the developers, one is as factible as the other one.


It's possible, but the fact that they mentioned it being AU first strikes me as their intention then they backpedaled slightly... not to mention there are fundamental problems, as I've stated before, in trying to make it canon.

Personally, I think that if they try and make it canon, it completely disrespects the old games. It's fascinating to see what "actually" happened if it's canon, but it takes everything the old games did and threw them out the window. Climax seems to hold more respect for the series than that.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Mark Simmons, the director of Shattered Memories shared the design documents of Dr. K in his interview with Game Informer.

Quote:
GI: Is Dr. K Dr. Kaufmann?

Simmons: We can't say. However, here is an excerpt from the design docs on Dr. K:

Dr. K graduated from __________ Medical School in the early 70s and went straight into training as a psychoanalyst, eager to test out theories “in the wild.” After working for the New York psychoanalyst Charles __________ for several years, Dr. K branched out and opened his own practice. His bravado and self-perpetuated reputation for innovation saw him taken on by several high profile clients, and at the same time attracted some ire from the more conservative members of his profession. In the 80s there were rumors of an affair with his patient __________ (the actress and daughter of __________ ). The minor controversies only added to the doctor's rock and roll reputation amongst the rich set. In the background to this, Dr. K was developing a moderate __________. Privately he subjected __________ humiliating __________ experiments, __________ out on the 80s New York socialite scene and __________ recount her __________ afterwards. Dr. K often justified these elements of his life as being part of his need to explore the edges of mental experience in order to better understand the human mind.

So, there's more to Dr. K than what the game shows us. In fact, there's probably more to all the other characters' real-life counterparts than what the game shows us. This is understandable considering that this is Cheryl's delusion, and Cheryl wouldn't have had knowledge of everyone else's backgrounds except what's shown in the tapes. And again, what does a seven-year-old know?

For example, if by some strange luck that Dahlia's real-life counterpart was supposed to be an actress in this retelling of Silent Hill, then you can most certainly connect the dots to see why Harry would have Kaufmann in his delusions.

Yuki wrote:
For the record, in case anyone tries to say it's possible he met him: I should think that would be a very, very important plot point that would be even just slightly mentioned in Shattered Memories. It isn't, so I highly doubt that the two ever met.

This wouldn't be an important plot point because the purpose of Shattered Memories is to tell Cheryl's story and not that of Harry Mason as its shown in the original Silent Hill.

Apocali wrote:
Also the fact of the original Mrs. Mason, who died young, unlike SM Dahlia.

Mrs. Mason by design looks like a younger version of Dahlia Gillespie. Actually, I'm not sure it's any coincidence that SM Harry meets a younger version of SM Dahlia then a much older version. Mrs. Mason may as well portray a version of Dahlia that Harry last remembers having a happy marriage.

If everything's a delusion from a dying Harry, then we might as make that official to this discussion.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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Burning Man wrote:
Mark Simmons, the director of Shattered Memories shared the design documents of Dr. K in his interview with Game Informer.

Quote:
GI: Is Dr. K Dr. Kaufmann?

Simmons: We can't say. However, here is an excerpt from the design docs on Dr. K:

Dr. K graduated from __________ Medical School in the early 70s and went straight into training as a psychoanalyst, eager to test out theories “in the wild.” After working for the New York psychoanalyst Charles __________ for several years, Dr. K branched out and opened his own practice. His bravado and self-perpetuated reputation for innovation saw him taken on by several high profile clients, and at the same time attracted some ire from the more conservative members of his profession. In the 80s there were rumors of an affair with his patient __________ (the actress and daughter of __________ ). The minor controversies only added to the doctor's rock and roll reputation amongst the rich set. In the background to this, Dr. K was developing a moderate __________. Privately he subjected __________ humiliating __________ experiments, __________ out on the 80s New York socialite scene and __________ recount her __________ afterwards. Dr. K often justified these elements of his life as being part of his need to explore the edges of mental experience in order to better understand the human mind.

So, there's more to Dr. K than what the game shows us. In fact, there's probably more to all the other characters' real-life counterparts than what the game shows us. This is understandable considering that this is Cheryl's delusion, and Cheryl wouldn't have had knowledge of everyone else's backgrounds except what's shown in the tapes. And again, what does a seven-year-old know?

For example, if by some strange luck that Dahlia's real-life counterpart was supposed to be an actress in this retelling of Silent Hill, then you can most certainly connect the dots to see why Harry would have Kaufmann in his delusions.

Yuki wrote:
For the record, in case anyone tries to say it's possible he met him: I should think that would be a very, very important plot point that would be even just slightly mentioned in Shattered Memories. It isn't, so I highly doubt that the two ever met.

This wouldn't be an important plot point because the purpose of Shattered Memories is to tell Cheryl's story and not that of Harry Mason as its shown in the original Silent Hill.

Apocali wrote:
Also the fact of the original Mrs. Mason, who died young, unlike SM Dahlia.

Mrs. Mason by design looks like a younger version of Dahlia Gillespie. Actually, I'm not sure it's any coincidence that SM Harry meets a younger version of SM Dahlia then a much older version. Mrs. Mason may as well portray a version of Dahlia that Harry last remembers having a happy marriage.

If everything's a delusion from a dying Harry, then we might as make that official to this discussion.



The thing is, we're learning all about Cheryl and her idea of Harry, as well as the idea of Harry being a well-rounded character with flaws. I should think that Kauffman would have mentioned knowing Harry, or at the very least decided not to take Cheryl's case because he would be personally invested in it and therefore unable to be an objective therapist.

SM Harry meets SM Dahlia because Cheryl, at the risk of being crude, most likely wants to fuck Harry.


Again: original Harry did not live in Silent Hill, nor did he have Cheryl biologically.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Yuki wrote:
I should think that Kauffman would have mentioned knowing Harry, or at the very least decided not to take Cheryl's case because he would be personally invested in it and therefore unable to be an objective therapist.

That could go either way. Besides, Kaufmann's profile suggests that he's not particularly someone who always follows the rules of conduct.

Quote:
Again: original Harry did not live in Silent Hill, nor did he have Cheryl biologically.

This bit isn't as important as you make it out to be. If delusions can be used to negate that the otherworld is a product of Alessa, then so can the other points that you bring up.

Even in Shattered Memories, Harry doesn't remember that he's from Silent Hill, and it's only through his driver's license that he thinks he is. (And, even then, he's still not entirely sure.) The original Harry never had to look at his driver's license.

The part about Cheryl being adopted is also rooted in the fact that Cheryl is half-a-soul of Alessa. Soul splits don't happen all that much in real life, so perhaps Cheryl being adopted is also not as it appears to be.

We have to remember that all the information - the canon stuff - that we were fed works under the assumption that the Good endings are real. Then, yes, Harry is not from Silent Hill; yes, Cheryl was found on the side of the highway and adopted by the Masons; and yes, the otherworld is a product of Alessa's tormented mind. However, if we consider that the Bad ending could be a tie-in for Shattered Memories, then only a few information bits are relevant because most of the events and characters are all delusions just like Shattered Memories.

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Historical Society Historian
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You would still have to wonder why Cheryl would make up and insert all of that information, though (Or Harry, or whoever the fuck). Ontop of that, there's little merit in doing so aside for a nitpicky continuity obsession, because it doesn't add anything to either story, and only detracts of anything.

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Historical Society Historian
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I completely agree with Aura.

Also, a note about Mrs. Mason:

I fail to see how she looks like Dahlia in any aspect. In Shattered Memories, all we see of the real Dahlia is that she has somewhat short blonde hair. In the original game, we see she has long gray hair and is gaunt. However, Mrs. Mason in the opening of Silent Hill is none of these, and I am going to assume that the opening cutscene of SH1 is fact because we never see it again during the course of the game.

(Also, what would be the significance of picking Cheryl up from the ground in a graveyard, in the opening? Would it be hinting at her adoption?)




My point in a lot of this is that Climax has the utmost respect for Silent Hill. I highly doubt they would do anything to invalidate the old games, because that would negate any importance they had. If you invalidate Silent Hill, you invalidate the next four games in the series because the Otherworld was triggered originally by Alessa. I find it hard to believe that Climax would do something to make the entirety of a series loved by both the fans and themselves into nothing but... well, nothing.

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Historical Society Historian
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Yuki wrote:
However, Mrs. Mason in the opening of Silent Hill is none of these, and I am going to assume that the opening cutscene of SH1 is fact because we never see it again during the course of the game.

I had stated that Mrs. Mason by design looks like a younger version of Dahlia Gillespie. In other words, her hair wouldn't be gray nor would she be gaunt.

As for assuming that the opening scene is fact because you see it only once... most of the scenes in the game happen only once sans the scenes that overlap with the opening. I fail to see how that proves anything.

Quote:
My point in a lot of this is that Climax has the utmost respect for Silent Hill. I highly doubt they would do anything to invalidate the old games, because that would negate any importance they had.

I don't believe tying Shattered Memories to the Bad ending invalidates the old games nor because of that negates any importance that they had. It just gives a different perspective on the original Silent Hill.

Silent Hill is about having different interpretations. It's not about having one answer to every single thing.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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>Silent Hill is about having different interpretations. It's not about having one answer to every single thing.

Shut up ur wrong just like the Highlander their can be only 1 answer :twisted: :evil:


No, really--cosign, and all that.

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Historical Society Historian
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Quote:
I had stated that Mrs. Mason by design looks like a younger version of Dahlia Gillespie. In other words, her hair wouldn't be gray nor would she be gaunt.


The problem is that if we're connecting the games, than Dahlia Mason is a short-haired blonde, not some black-haired chick, and so this imaginary wife should correlate. I can't imagine any train of thought that would go "My blonde wife = Crazy old bitch witch = black haired almost-flawless beauty that died of a damn disease who apparently had a different name in the SH1 novel or some shit."

And even if that was the case, there's still the question of "why."

It's not that I have a problem with the interpretation, I was one of the original people pushing it, but the logic doesn't check out for me.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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