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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Who's fault was it?
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Dec 2009
Notes left: 78
"Prince Wilhelm is passionately in love with Celestine. But she does not love him. One day, Wilhelm comes to the King and asks for Celestine's hand in marriage. Celestine begs the king not to marry her to Wilhelm, but the king ignores her pleas. Royal protocol means he must say yes to the match. They are married and Wilhelm takes Celestine back with him to his kingdom. That night, he attempts to consummate the marriage, but the distraught Celestine flees. She runs from the safety of the castle and across a field, ignoring the sign which warns of danger. In that field is a bull, who, seeing the girl, charges her. She falls under his hooves and is killed instantly."

So in order of left to right (left being most guilty, right being least) who's fault was it that Celestine died? Here's my take on this...



The Bull would not have killed her if she had not fled.

The Princess would not have fled if she had not married.

The Prince would not have married if he was not allowed.

The King allowed the marraige.


IMO, this scenario is all cause and affect. The King set up the chain of events that lead to her death so my reaction to this psych profile was


MOST.........................................LEAST
King ---> Prince ---> Daughter ---> Bull



Thoughts? What did you put? I'd love to hear some other theories...


Last edited by Hexagram on 14 Jan 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2009
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Last seen at: Koholint island
Ok, I remember this part of it from the walkthrough, and here are my thoughts:

Prince -> King -> Bull -> Celestine

If the prince had not pressed the issue so much, if only he could have went for a different bride, then none of this would have ever started in the first place. I blame Celestine's father second-most, for if he had simply stood up for his daughter, protocol be-damned, and said no, then again, if wouldn't have happened.

Now I know it's not as if the bull killing her was premeditated or something (obviously it wasn't) but I suppose I list Celestine as least at fault, because none of it was by her design. She reacted accordingly to being put in a situation that she absolutely did not want to be in. She was brave, and at least attempted to flee, and well who on earth could blame the poor girl? But yeah, that's how I see that.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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The bull was what physically ran her over. It's not like she was threatening it. Wilhelm was, basically, attempting rape, King Harold was a douche. Celeste is pretty innocent.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 04 Mar 2007
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The question was who was most responsible for her death?

I put Celeste at fault.

I assumed the Prince had no idea that Celeste hated him. I suppose I felt that way as I hapen to like a girl who didn't like me. But I wouldn't insist on somehow forcing her to be with me if I realized she abhored me.

The King did do the wrong thing in my opinion whether due to pressure or whatever, but I don't believe he wanted her death to happen, and if he somehow could see it happening I doubt he'd let he marriage happen.

The bull is an animal. And well... that's the nature of 'em. Can't really fault it... Besides he was fenced off within his own area where noone was allowed to enter.

Celeste was running away, but it was her own fault for not noticing where she was going. She could've run anywhere else. Despite that this was an acident she was responsible for her own death by ignorantly putting herself in danger.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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I can definitely see an argument for Celestine being completely at fault.

However, I personally put the King most at fault, followed by the Prince, then Celestine, then the Bull.


The King should not have forced his daughter to marry Wilhelm, regardless of protocol, and Wilehelm should not have pushed the issue. Celeste should not have ran, but she was an unwilling participant; the bull did, well, what bulls do. I felt sorry for the bull, not having a name...

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 26 Dec 2009
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Interesting...

If you believe in fate then the bull is most guilty because ultimately the bull killed her.

But if you believe in free will, then the chain of events that lead up to her death are to blame because there was a choice in the matter.


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Subway Guard
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Missing since: 15 May 2008
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She was simply put guilty herself. She could have fled before the marriage, she could have done anything else but run near the bull. The bull charged because it's a natural defense. Sure, she wasn't threatening, but expecting a dumb animal to know that in the dark is pure lunacy. The King merely did what was indicated by his position, and the prince was possibly ignorant of the girl's feelings. Perhaps had she spoken up to Wilhelm the entire situation could have been curtailed. She's wrong from the outset. She has to be; she's the only woman. ;)

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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I don't see what fate and free will has to do with it, Hexagram. Regardless, it's the bull who killed her with no provocation or reason.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 22 Apr 2006
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More important than analyzing which is the more correct order is how your answers affect the ending. I think with some inferring, we can rewrite the roles of Celestine, Wilhelm, the King, and the Bull into Harry, Cheryl, Dahlia, and the Car Crash.

Celestine -> Harry (the victim)
Wilhelm -> Cheryl (sets the whole chain of events into motion with his proposal/her birth)
The King -> Dahlia (assuages chain of events to continue through the parting of Celestine/Harry from the King/Dahlia, through Dahlia's divorce from Harry and the King's granting permission to Wilhelm to take Celestine away)
The Bull -> The Car Crash (cause of death; objective, unstoppable force of nature)

I haven't tested this out yet, but it's possible that naming the King as most guilty results in Cheryl not reconciling with her mother at the end, naming Wilhelm results in Cheryl continuing to blame herself and not letting go of her delusions, and naming either the Bull or Celestine results in Cheryl finally letting go of her guilt and accepting that fate or things out of her control were responsible for her dad's death.

On a side note, on my first playthrough I blamed the Bull and on the second, Celestine. This is a personal view, but I find culpability is best placed nearest the actual source of the act. We could go on forever blaming people further up who could have prevented the event (say, blame the carriage driver for bringing Celestine to Wilhelm's castle, the priest for performing the ceremony, etc., all the way to Celestine's mother for giving birth to her, dooming her child to death) instead of actually looking at who was involved and how their actions put them to blame. That's the problem with many lawsuits these days (McDonalds made me fat, airbags injured me when they went off during my crash, and so on).

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Hurm...


Last edited by overachiever547 on 14 Jan 2010, edited 2 times in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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I never thought of that, overachiever. That's awesome if it turns out to be true.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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overachiever547 wrote:
More important than analyzing which is the more correct order is how your answers affect the ending. I think with some inferring, we can rewrite the roles of Celestine, Wilhelm, the King, and the Bull into Harry, Cheryl, Dahlia, and the Car Crash.

Celestine -> Harry (the victim)
Wilhelm -> Cheryl (sets the whole chain of events into motion with his proposal/her birth)
The King -> Dahlia (assuages chain of events to continue through the parting of Celestine/Harry from the King/Dahlia, through Dahlia's divorce from Harry and the King's granting permission to Wilhelm to take Celestine away)
The Bull -> The Car Crash (cause of death; objective, unstoppable force of nature)

I haven't tested this out yet, but it's possible that naming the King as most guilty results in Cheryl not reconciling with her mother at the end, naming Wilhelm results in Cheryl continuing to blame herself and not letting go of her delusions, and naming either the Bull or Celestine results in Cheryl finally letting go of her guilt and accepting that fate or things out of her control were responsible for her dad's death.

On a side note, on my first playthrough I blamed the Bull and on the second, Celestine. This is a personal view, but I find culpability is best placed nearest the actual source of the act. We could go on forever blaming people further up who could have prevented the event (say, blame the carriage driver for bringing Celestine to Wilhelm's castle, the priest for performing the ceremony, etc., all the way to Celestine's mother for giving birth to her, dooming her child to death) instead of actually looking at who was involved and how their actions put them to blame. That's the problem with many lawsuits these days (McDonalds made me fat, airbags injured me when they went off during my crash, and so on).



That's an intriguing idea... except I don't think it works. I've named the King most guilty four times, and two out of the four times she reconciles with Dahlia. I named Celestine the most guilty, recently, and as with one of the guilty King playthroughs, Cheryl did not reconcile with her.

Also, in four of my five playthroughs, Cheryl has let go of her delusions, though once it was a different scene. However, the only one in which she kept her delusions had Celestine guilty.

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Last edited by Yuki on 14 Jan 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 22 Apr 2006
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Thanks for providing some sort of data, Yuki! It was worth a shot.

It's probably important to mention that this test probably isn't the only thing that affects the ending, though, and that each of the possible effects I've listed are hypothetically exclusive (Cheryl can let go, but not reconcile with her mother, etc.).

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Hurm...


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 26 Dec 2009
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AuraTwilight wrote:
I don't see what fate and free will has to do with it, Hexagram. Regardless, it's the bull who killed her with no provocation or reason.


Well, if it's fate then she was meant to die by the horns of that bull. Nothing could've prevented it whatsoever, everything happened just as it should have making the bull 100% guilty for her death.

However, if free will is involved then the choices made from everyone else are thrown into this because if they were made differently, she would not have died. The King could've chose to say no, the prince could've chose not to marry a girl who did not love him and Celestine could've chose not to flee from the prince. Their actions determine her fate.

So if fate is involved, the bull is most guilty. And if it's freewill, I go back to my theory in my original post.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2009
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paladin181 wrote:
She's wrong from the outset. She has to be; she's the only woman. ;)


*cough* What?

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Jul 2009
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I agree that the whole thing represents the main people in Cheryl's life, and how the Bull=The Car crash. On my first playthrough, I selected King-Prince-Celestine-and the Bull. I think it was the king's fault because he pushed Celestine through a marriage that she did not want, and if he hadn't, Celestine wouldn't have died.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 19 Apr 2007
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Last seen at: Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory
From most to least guilty, my order was Wilhelm, the King, Celestine, and then the Bull.

Wilhelm had the most power over the situation. Unlike with the royal obligation for the King, there would be no consequences for Wilhelm if he decided to call the whole thing off -- but instead he forced himself on her. One decision from him could've prevented the entire thing.

The King is next because I do believe that he could've tried to protest against the marriage law, and there weren't any signs that he tried to. I put him after Wilhelm, though, because his decision couldn't have been as freely made as the Prince's.

Celestine is after the King because I do think that she was a victim throughout the story. It was kind of tough choosing between her and the Bull for the last two, but I settled on her as being guiltier because I think that while she must've been frightened, she had the ability to make other decisions (at least to where she'd flee to), and...

The Bull was reacting purely on instinct. It had nothing to do with anything, just living its life in nature. Most animals defend themselves because that is how we're wired. Just like how I can't blame someone for killing another in self defense for fear of their own life, I can't truly place blame on the Bull because that's all it knew to do.

Only after thinking about the differences between my sister's and my choices did I realize that the characters in the story were supposed to represent who Cheryl blames for what she's gone through. I think Overachiever's interpretation makes sense. I at first just thought that King Harold (I didn't even remember that was his name, I'll have to listen again on the next playthrough) = Harry the father figure, Celestine = Cheryl the young daughter, who could only watch passively as her family fell apart, and the Bull = the crash, an unpredicted violent event. But then I didn't know what to do with Wilhelm, and the interactions -- the crash killed Harry, not Cheryl -- wouldn't have really made sense.

Ah well. I have a feeling my sis and I will be playing through this game about 20 times anyway. That should give us time to figure out how it works in the end. :P


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 29 Apr 2006
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My order went Celestine -> The King -> Wilhelm -> The Bull.

As Dr. K put it, "Poor Celestine. She didn't have to run." Let alone run into a field with an ill-tempered bull. If she were a little more careful and handled the situation differently, she'd still be alive.

The King is at fault because he knew his daughter wasn't into this Wilhelm guy and forced her to marry anyway. If he didn't do that, she wouldn't have run off and she'd still be alive.

I don't get the impression that Wilhelm knew Celestine didn't love him. He was too blinded by his own love for her and probably didn't expect her to just run off like that. Still, he should have backed off when Celestine said she wasn't interested. I don't blame him as much as the other parties though.

The Bull was just protecting his own territory. He was just doing something that came naturally to him. He didn't know who this person was, running around his territory, possibly a threat to him, and he made sure to reclaim it. Even though it was the bull who killed her, he's the most innocent in all of this.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 04 Mar 2007
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We're not really given much information about Wilheim's intentions, but that's the point. There are a lot of vagueries to the story and the test is there to bring to light our own biases based on how we fill in the blanks to decide the most to least guilty.

Given my ending and post game analysis, my choosing Celestine may show that I'm someone who takes personal responsibility for their actions. This may factor into the my being a more responsible person, which then sheds light on my answers to the later questions about marriage for which I chose to remain faithful, no matter what the case, which got me the good 'lost love' ending where Harry was a caring father.

I don't think this test itself determines the outcome, the game's psycho analysis of the players actions and answers troughout the game to determine the player's character determined the sort of person Harry was. Though I wouldn't say it's seriously suggesting that some of us are actualy drunkards or lousy fathers/husbands because of the ending we got. Just that our temperment, psychologically-speaking, may make us prone to be candidates for that sort of lifestyle given the 'right' circumstances and conditions that could occur in our lives.


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Subway Guard
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cascade88 wrote:
paladin181 wrote:
She's wrong from the outset. She has to be; she's the only woman. ;)


*cough* What?
Glad someone picked up on it. reference to an [url]internet joke[/url]...

Ah, Juvenile humor.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 13 Apr 2009
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Clearly is the fault of the royal protocol.


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