Determining Reality [End-game spoilers]

[AuraTwilight]

But now I'm wondering, perhaps it is the wrong way around. Maybe it's not that they all involved Cheryl. Maybe it's that none of them did. We know Cheryl didn't die in the water. But there is a photo that appears to be her. But we're seeing this in Cheryl's mind. Perhaps it did happen, but not to Cheryl and, in her head, she is putting herself in these roles. Perhaps she never had an affair with a teacher or any of that. Perhaps these are roles she has created for herself, just as we do in a dream or even a waking fantasy.

Except we also know for a fact that Cheryl did have boyfriend troubles, and actually did stab Malcolm, and all this other crap.

If we follow this line of reasoning, nothing Harry learns in the game matters at all, and we should just watch the ending and nothing else.

[Dogg Thang]

Do we know anything for a fact? I could be missing a piece of the puzzle but it seemed to me that the only absolute by the end of the game was that we can't take anything as fact.

And, as for nothing mattering, I would completely disagree. From the very first form of that session, through the journey, the exercises to Kaufmann's call to 'wake up', the point is to have Cheryl see reality, purge herself of her fantasies and know who she is. In the context of that journey, who she has created for herself, the roles she plays in her mind, matter greatly. We don't see it until the end but that's the journey.

We don't get the history she gives to Kaufmann. All we get is the mental image.

If the events are real, they matter so that Cheryl can accept them as part of who she is. If they are not, they possibly matter even more so (like her fantasies about her father) she can move on from them, or discard them completely, and live her life.

On this issue, however, I'm not sure what way I'm leaning at the moment. The mementos, including the hunting knife, would seem to be to be more an indicator of importance to Cheryl and real-life events than the echos which, given their context, could be twisted, distorted or plain made-up to suit her self-image as she works through her history with Kaufmann.

Or they could simply be real events from Cheryl's life that she is talking through with Kaufmann.

[AuraTwilight]

Do we know anything for a fact? I could be missing a piece of the puzzle but it seemed to me that the only absolute by the end of the game was that we can't take anything as fact.

Information that Cybil gives us is grounded in reality. Cheryl, for whatever reason, was arrested. The only reason the game ever gives us is a stabbing of a security guard.

And, as for nothing mattering, I would completely disagree. From the very first form of that session, through the journey, the exercises to Kaufmann's call to 'wake up', the point is to have Cheryl see reality, purge herself of her fantasies and know who she is. In the context of that journey, who she has created for herself, the roles she plays in her mind, matter greatly. We don't see it until the end but that's the journey.

But if all these echoes and whatnot are completely imaginary, then we aren't seeing the truth. We're given absolutely no grounding in who Cheryl Mason is or how Harry's death has effected her at all. The entire journey into her mind becomes worthless because we don't learn anything real.

[Apocali]

I'm still of the theory that the SM version of Silent Hill still has a supernatural presence and that it's not entirely in Cheryl's mind. The town brought Cheryl's inner turmoil to life by making it a battleground between Cheryl and her desire to continue in her delusions and Harry and his quest to save Cheryl from herself. The Rawshocks were the town's manifestations of Cheryl's mind, just like James and his monsters in 2, their goal being to stop Harry from showing Cheryl the truth. The echoes are real, they're the supernatural side of the town blurring past and present together. The echoes are of real events that occurred in the town and that the supernatural side is just repeating.

[Catch22]

But you're basing that theory off of the supernatural aspects seen in the previous Silent Hill games. Up until now the Otherworld has had a supernatural aspect to it, but you have to remember that this is a reimagining and doesn't play by those rules.

If SH:SM was it's own game, and none of the other SH games had ever been made, would you have thought the town had a supernatural presence? Being unfamiliar with the rules of the Otherworld, I think we'd all just assume it was in Cheryl's mind.

[pj]

I'm still of the theory that the SM version of Silent Hill still has a supernatural presence and that it's not entirely in Cheryl's mind. The town brought Cheryl's inner turmoil to life by making it a battleground between Cheryl and her desire to continue in her delusions and Harry and his quest to save Cheryl from herself. The Rawshocks were the town's manifestations of Cheryl's mind, just like James and his monsters in 2, their goal being to stop Harry from showing Cheryl the truth. The echoes are real, they're the supernatural side of the town blurring past and present together. The echoes are of real events that occurred in the town and that the supernatural side is just repeating.

That's cool if you think that, but I'd love to hear the reasoning and evidence that's leading you to this conclusion. After all, the thread is about "determining" the game's reality, not just "what do you think."

Granted, we'll never be able to determine its reality, but it'd still be nice to hear your reasoning.

(I'm wording this carefully because I don't want to sound like a dick or anything.)

[Apocali]

I still think it would, there's still a lot of strange stuff going on that couldn't be Cheryl just making stuff up, like a good chunk of the echoes.

[pj]

^Some of us have addressed ways in which the echoes could be made up by Cheryl.

[AuraTwilight]

If SH:SM was it's own game, and none of the other SH games had ever been made, would you have thought the town had a supernatural presence? Being unfamiliar with the rules of the Otherworld, I think we'd all just assume it was in Cheryl's mind.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would. I already do with Rule of Rose.

^Some of us have addressed ways in which the echoes could be made up by Cheryl.

And I'd like to think I've been making decent rebuttals. <3

[pj]

^Some of us have addressed ways in which the echoes could be made up by Cheryl.

And I'd like to think I've been making decent rebuttals. <3

Don't get me wrong, you certainly have.

I was specifically talking to Apocali here.

[Apocali]

That's cool if you think that, but I'd love to hear the reasoning and evidence that's leading you to this conclusion. After all, the thread is about "determining" the game's reality, not just "what do you think."

Granted, we'll never be able to determine its reality, but it'd still be nice to hear your reasoning.

(I'm wording this carefully because I don't want to sound like a dick or anything.)

Because it seems odd to me that Harry would have complete amnesia over who he was if the whole game was just in Cheryl's mind, who knew a lot about him but refused to come to terms with it until the end of the game. If Harry was a manifestation of the town, like Maria, it would make more sense while he only has memories up to the accident, the town brought Cheryl's vision of her father to life. Also I think Cybil is a good indication that it isn't all fake. She seemed to be pretty real, with her realistic change in treatment to Harry once she started to delve deeper. Plus it seemed like the Otherworld purposely stopped Cybil from telling Harry the truth, the town's way into trying to fulfill Cheryl's wish of staying in her fantasies of Harry being a perfect father. The old couple and the bridge operator I think are also real, they're just too mundane and unrelated to Cheryl's plight to have any purpose in Cheryl thinking them up. Lisa and Michelle are possible manifestations, but Dahlia is definitely one, young and old. The only time real Dahlia appeared was at the very end.

The normal Silent Hill has some supernatural essence around it, namely the echoes. Harry can experience the echoes because he's a product of the town and is more attune to it, as well as some echoes already being a part of Cheryl's past and her memories. The Otherworld is the town fully manifesting Cheryl's mind to try and stop Harry from getting to her, this usually happens when Harry starts to learn the truth about who he really is.

[Dogg Thang]

I really like your starting point with that thought process. It's a good way of looking at it and, if I was going the supernatural route, I think you have something good there.

However, when you get into things like characters simply seeming real or being too mundane to bother to create, even in supernatural Silent Hill, I don't think that would be enough to convince me. Still, some good points there.

For the non-supernatural route, I think the amnesia makes sense because the starting point this time was the car crash. With that car crash, Cheryl starts that journey dangerously close to the truth. Her fantasy is actually hanging by a thread at that point.

Her mind then has to reconcile Harry, who she knew at age seven, with the Silent Hill she lives in. Her mind makes the leap from then to now, and carries with it quite a bit of baggage in the leap (switching Dahlias and so on). There's a mental conflict there - part of her (presumably with Kaufmann's prodding) is trying to reveal the truth. The other part of her is trying to shut it down. Harry doesn't know the truth of who he is because Cheryl doesn't want to see the truth herself.

The fantasy would fall apart much quicker if Harry had any realisations - either he'd realise he's dead or, more likely, the time differences would become far too apparent and she couldn't continue the charade (it comes close a couple of times with large events like meeting Dahlia and even smaller touches like why Harry doesn't know the Balkan, for example).

Remember that it starts with the car crash. Kaufmann said that would have been a break through before. So it seems she has been through sessions with other therapists and never even acknowledged that the car crash happened. Right from the start, Cheryl's world is very close to cracking.

But I like your supernatural take on it. If Harry was manifested at that moment, that is effectively his birth. Though he knows he's a writer and actually quite a few things. Supernatural or fantasy, his amnesia is pretty patchy.

[pj]

That's cool if you think that, but I'd love to hear the reasoning and evidence that's leading you to this conclusion. After all, the thread is about "determining" the game's reality, not just "what do you think."

Granted, we'll never be able to determine its reality, but it'd still be nice to hear your reasoning.

(I'm wording this carefully because I don't want to sound like a dick or anything.)

Because it seems odd to me that Harry would have complete amnesia over who he was if the whole game was just in Cheryl's mind, who knew a lot about him but refused to come to terms with it until the end of the game.

It's not really that weird considering what Harry is, though. If the game is set in Cheryl's subconscious, and Cheryl harbors delusional, inaccurate, one-sided perceptions of her father (which Kaufmann confirms at the end), then Harry and his "amnesia" make sense.

As Cheryl comes to term with her delusions, Delusion Harry starts realizing and learning more and more conflicting pieces of information about the truth because Cheryl's starting to let go of her delusion. And this causes him all manner of confusion because his very existence as a delusion cannot coincide with truth.

If Harry was a manifestation of the town, like Maria, it would make more sense while he only has memories up to the accident,

Again, you have to consider what Delusion-Harry's psychological function would be, and then he makes a lot more (real-world) sense than being a being manifested by a supernatural town.

Also I think Cybil is a good indication that it isn't all fake. She seemed to be pretty real, with her realistic change in treatment to Harry once she started to delve deeper.

A lot of things surrounding Cybil clearly suggest she isn't real.

Think logically about some of the things she does: at one point, she drags him to a hospital, changes his clothes herself, and wheels him through a pretty much empty hospital. And yet she clearly doesn't seem to think anything strange is happening with the town: only with Harry.

Also, Cybil freezes. I'd argue the game establishes with its resolution that the things that freeze aren't real.

[AuraTwilight]

Because it seems odd to me that Harry would have complete amnesia over who he was if the whole game was just in Cheryl's mind, who knew a lot about him but refused to come to terms with it until the end of the game.

Cheryl never knew who her father was. That's the whole point of the game.

Also I think Cybil is a good indication that it isn't all fake. She seemed to be pretty real, with her realistic change in treatment to Harry once she started to delve deeper. Plus it seemed like the Otherworld purposely stopped Cybil from telling Harry the truth, the town's way into trying to fulfill Cheryl's wish of staying in her fantasies of Harry being a perfect father.

I don't think Cybil is real. She freezes more than any other character, and freezing is reserved solely for unreal characters, it seems, and if she's real, then there's something seriously wrong with her because she keeps changing her memories or demeanor, and keeps showing up at unbelievably contrived moments, and is apparently defined by Cheryl's psychology anyway.

The old couple and the bridge operator I think are also real, they're just too mundane and unrelated to Cheryl's plight to have any purpose in Cheryl thinking them up.

Both of them change personalities, dialogue, and in the Stewart's case, occupations and possibly daughter name depending on the psych profile. Not only that, but the Stewarts seem to represent the fact that Cheryl doesn't live there anymore, and Jimmy Capra seems to just be a contrivance to give Harry the solution to a puzzle.

Lisa and Michelle are possible manifestations

Change that to definitely. Both should be 18 years older than they should be, since they're based on girls Harry had sex with. Not only that, but both change to the psych profile, both of them act extremely peculiar, and both whip out information they have absolutely no business knowing whatsoever, such as Lisa asking about Cheryl's hobbies before Harry even mentioning he had a daughter.

Again, you have to consider what Delusion-Harry's psychological function would be, and then he makes a lot more (real-world) sense than being a being manifested by a supernatural town.

His function is the same regardless.

Think logically about some of the things she does: at one point, she drags him to a hospital, changes his clothes herself, and wheels him through a pretty much empty hospital. And yet she clearly doesn't seem to think anything strange is happening with the town: only with Harry.

Not to mention the sheer impossibility of Cybil finding him then, and every other time after the Stewart's house incident, without any sort of lead almost immediately when he gets there. No real cop could ever do that. So the Stewarts call her the first time she runs up to Harry, fine. How did she know he was at the lake after the Bridge puzzle? How did she find him in Lisa's apartment? How the hell did she find him by Dr. K's office? All three times, she found him less than a minute after he got there himself. I don't care how you argue it, that's impossible.

[pj]

Again, you have to consider what Delusion-Harry's psychological function would be, and then he makes a lot more (real-world) sense than being a being manifested by a supernatural town.

His function is the same regardless.

I know, but I was making a sweeping judgment that a psychological delusion is more believable than a supernatural town that can manifest sentient beings. Thus, it makes more "sense."