Determining Reality [End-game spoilers]

Post by **FiliusMartis** » 20 Jan 2010

I looked around but I didn't see anything that really got into this subject so I started a thread. If I missed a pre-existing thread please point me in that direction.

At the end of the game we find out that the Harry we've been playing as is simply Cheryl's delusion and the majority of the game was part of said delusion and simply not real. However, some things are real. What I'm trying to figure out is what is real and how we are supposed to determine such.. if we are at all.

There are two primary sets of things that people consider to be actually real: the echos and the final video tape. They real twist is that the Harry you've been playing is not real, as Dr. K says, you don't even know him. However, this is not entirely accurate if the echos and tapes are true. The way you play Harry, and thus at least some aspect of the way Cheryl remembers Harry, is the Harry you get at the tape and the one reflected in the various echo memories throughout the game, so how can we take one as true and write the other off as mere delusion? Now I understand that the ideal and heroic Harry running to save Cheryl is not real, but few times make you behave in such a manner. Ultimately what is a 'delusion' directly influences the bits of 'fact' that you receive... so how much of a delusion is it?

Another thing is the video tape at the beginning... despite the obvious princess and knight symbolism is there any other evidence suggesting it is not real? I ask this primarily because when falling you are shown pieces of the tape and Harry lying in the snow after the car wreck. Are they contrasting or complimenting one another?

I realize there are most likely few, if any, straight answers here, and that is fine. I'm looking to explore and discuss.

Post by **ashatteredmemory** » 20 Jan 2010

As Harry's progressing through Silent Hill, so is he progressing in Cheryl's memories, or what she has made of certain things (like the paparazi at Midwich); a memory meets other memories.
As for the video-tape: Harry's falling down into a mess of memories and delusions: as he falls down, he sees what Cheryl repressed about her dad: his death, and it lies right next to her most pleasant memories...

However, there is no indication that the tape is not real.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 20 Jan 2010

There are two primary sets of things that people consider to be actually real: the echos and the final video tape. They real twist is that the Harry you've been playing is not real, as Dr. K says, you don't even know him. However, this is not entirely accurate if the echos and tapes are true. The way you play Harry, and thus at least some aspect of the way Cheryl remembers Harry, is the Harry you get at the tape and the one reflected in the various echo memories throughout the game, so how can we take one as true and write the other off as mere delusion? Now I understand that the ideal and heroic Harry running to save Cheryl is not real, but few times make you behave in such a manner. Ultimately what is a 'delusion' directly influences the bits of 'fact' that you receive... so how much of a delusion is it?

Harry becomes more and more in line with what Cheryl knows about the real Harry as the game goes on, though obviously she exaggerates some things to make him go almost too far in the other direction.

Another thing is the video tape at the beginning... despite the obvious princess and knight symbolism is there any other evidence suggesting it is not real? I ask this primarily because when falling you are shown pieces of the tape and Harry lying in the snow after the car wreck. Are they contrasting or complimenting one another?

The tapes are 100% real; it's the only objective truth we're given in the game.

Post by **Hydra666** » 21 Jan 2010

I don't understand something :

If Harry is only a memory of Cheryl, wy do we play as harry if he's already dead?

The gameplay sequences are happening in cheryl's mind?

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 21 Jan 2010

Remember Maria from Silent Hill 2? It's roughly the same. It could be in Cheryl's mind, but the theory that Harry is a manifestation is just as likely in some people's opinions.

Post by **Hydra666** » 21 Jan 2010

The ending was so sad... I really liked Harry and seeing Cheryl crying for her dead when she learned he was just an illusion was really touching.

Post by **FiliusMartis** » 21 Jan 2010

Maybe I didn't phrase what I meant well. I'm primarily referring to Dr. K's revelation at the end... (your phrases will vary...)

"Deny who Daddy was..." Except she doesn't. She may add the aspect that he's looking for her which doesn't always conflict with who he really was. The way she imagines him in her "fantasy land" is the way that he is in the real video at the end. She uses "scraps" (the echos?) to create a "father who never existed," except he did. If the scraps refer to the echos and those scraps make Harry a drunk then the final truth shows that he was a drunk. Of course she idealized him, that's irrefutable, but the persona you develop during the game is not a complete fantasy.

Furthermore, if the opening tape is real, which I believe it is- in one version Dr. K says something about sitting goggle eyed watching the loop of a home video- then Harry did have a good fatherly aspect to him. She may be exaggerating characteristics but she is not creating a from-scratch-fantasy world like Dr. K seems to imply.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 21 Jan 2010

"Deny who Daddy was..." Except she doesn't. She may add the aspect that he's looking for her which doesn't always conflict with who he really was. The way she imagines him in her "fantasy land" is the way that he is in the real video at the end. She uses "scraps" (the echos?) to create a "father who never existed," except he did. If the scraps refer to the echos and those scraps make Harry a drunk then the final truth shows that he was a drunk. Of course she idealized him, that's irrefutable, but the persona you develop during the game is not a complete fantasy.

As I said before, while he's based on the real Harry, it's not a perfect match. Many people, myself included, theorize that all four ending tapes are equally real, and the ending you get is only whichever video Cheryl watched and based the imaginary Harry off of, therefore the Harry we know is actually just a lobsided, one-dimensional caricature of a multifaceted individual who Cheryl never fully understood, and neither will we.

Furthermore, if the opening tape is real, which I believe it is- in one version Dr. K says something about sitting goggle eyed watching the loop of a home video- then Harry did have a good fatherly aspect to him. She may be exaggerating characteristics but she is not creating a from-scratch-fantasy world like Dr. K seems to imply.

He implies no such thing, only that her fantasy doesn't match up to reality. That doesn't necessarily equate to "created from scratch."

Harry was atleast good enough of a father to spoil her, but apparently he forgot details about her, like her favorite colors, and he apparently spoiled her, possibly in compensation for more substantial affection he was too busy, horny, or drunk to give her. He wasn't perfect. He may have been good, but he was no knight in shining armor.

Post by **Yuki** » 27 Jan 2010

^ That, pretty much. Cheryl remembered that he loved her a lot, but also had a single flaw (depending on your ending). So, she intensifies his love for her in the game (hence why you chase after her, refusing to stop), but also mixes in a little bit of what she'd seen from the tape (Horny Harry, divorced Harry, etc.).

I personally think all endings can point to one life, but Cheryl only knows of one tape per playthrough.

Also, I think Harry may have physically been in Silent Hill, despite his being a delusion. What leads me to think that most is when he speaks to people who are NOT in the delusion, Jimmy Capra being one.

Post by **FiliusMartis** » 28 Jan 2010

All the endings could point to one life.. ok I accept that, but what about the echos? How can it be determined which echos are real, or how real they are as they change dramatically on each game so they cannot all be true.

I'm all for the construct theory, but Kaufman saying "he doesn't exist" and he's "not even a ghost" seem to imply that he is absolutely nothing. And, without the effect Alessa had on the otherworld of Silent Hill, is there anything that could cause such a construct to materialize?

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 28 Jan 2010

All the endings could point to one life.. ok I accept that, but what about the echos? How can it be determined which echos are real, or how real they are as they change dramatically on each game so they cannot all be true.

Only the videotapes represent 100% truth anyway. Everything else is either a construct to aid a puzzle, something warped by Cheryl's perceptions or memories, or something she couldn't possibly be reminiscing anyway.

I'm all for the construct theory, but Kaufman saying "he doesn't exist" and he's "not even a ghost" seem to imply that he is absolutely nothing. And, without the effect Alessa had on the otherworld of Silent Hill, is there anything that could cause such a construct to materialize?

The town of Silent Hill always had a supernatural power before Alessa was even born (how do you think she got her powers?), the same can be true in Shattered Memories. As for "not existing" and "not being a ghost", that describes Maria too.

Post by **Yuki** » 28 Jan 2010

We don't, however, know for SURE that the town is supernatural in Shattered Memories; we don't have any evidence either way, though the argument CAN be made either way due to inferences. (For instance, there is a series of echo messages in the forest that have absolutely nothing to do with Cheryl, of the boy shooting the deer. How would Cheryl know about these echoes? What do they have to do with HER life, when all the other echoes are clearly connected?)

Also, what Aura said about Maria is my argument as well. XP

Post by **Drainage64** » 28 Jan 2010

Well the games not called "Silent Colorado" or "The Legend of Harry", it's called "Silent Hill" which ofcourse means it takes place in Silent Hill which I've been lead to believe is a haunted messed up town . so I'd assume that it is supernatural before I assumed it wasn't. Ofcourse I may be totally of course but if I were to play it safe then I would say it's supernatural mainly because of the towns previous track record. That's just my opinion ofcourse.

Post by **Yuki** » 28 Jan 2010

Drainage64 wrote:Well the games not called "Silent Colorado" or "The Legend of Harry", it's called "Silent Hill" which ofcourse means it takes place in Silent Hill which I've been lead to believe is a haunted messed up town . so I'd assume that it is supernatural before I assumed it wasn't. Ofcourse I may be totally of course but if I were to play it safe then I would say it's supernatural mainly because of the towns previous track record. That's just my opinion ofcourse.

Well, Silent Hill in the original games was supernaturally-based. However, Shattered Memories is a completely alternate universe, and it's possible it is NOT supernatural in that universe simply for the sake of screwing with your mind. There's evidence to point both ways; nobody at all sees Harry that isn't a construct (save MAAAAAAYBE Cybil and the Stewarts, but there's evidence either way for that as well), not to mention the fact that it IS mentioned that Cheryl is delusional make it seem like it's not supernatural. However, some of the echoes that you receive during the game seem to have nothing to do with Cheryl, and some of the phone calls Harry makes seem to be to real people.

Post by **Drainage64** » 28 Jan 2010

Well, Silent Hill in the original games was supernaturally-based. However, Shattered Memories is a completely alternate universe, and it's possible it is NOT supernatural in that universe simply for the sake of screwing with your mind. There's evidence to point both ways; nobody at all sees Harry that isn't a construct (save MAAAAAAYBE Cybil and the Stewarts, but there's evidence either way for that as well), not to mention the fact that it IS mentioned that Cheryl is delusional make it seem like it's not supernatural. However, some of the echoes that you receive during the game seem to have nothing to do with Cheryl, and some of the phone calls Harry makes seem to be to real people.[/quote]

Well I have taken that into account and there's a decent chance that my opinion is wrong. The Silent Hill in this game might not even be real to begin with. Maybe it looks similar or even very similar to how it might be but for all I know the town you walk around in might just be part of Cheryl's mental construct.

The only thing that leads me to believe it's even snowing in the game is that you see it snowing outside of Dr.K's office in the intro and since that scene isn't focused on harry in anyway and rather on Dr.K, I would assume that in reality it is snowing.
One idea is that if there really is a blizzard then the towns people would have a legit reason to be at their homes or wherever they are so that would explain the emptiness of the town. One possible idea is that if you go with the Marea theory then you could say that most of the characters are mental manifestations that are roaming the empty town while only a few people might be real.

(Somewhat on that note) Did anyone call that one number at the Toluca Mall? It was at this part where if you called a number then Harry would get a mall gaurd on the phone and he would be asking him how to get out of the mall. I found it interesting that the man said that if I was in the mall then he would see me on the security camera's and therefore thought I was pulling a prank or something. That seemed to suggest that the cameras couldn't see harry because he really wasn't a real living person and that the mall cop might be a real person.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 28 Jan 2010

Yea, but the guy also said that they didn't do security for Toluca Mall anymore, then contradicted himself by saying Harry wasn't on the cameras. He's not real either.

Post by **Drainage64** » 28 Jan 2010

AuraTwilight wrote:Yea, but the guy also said that they didn't do security for Toluca Mall anymore, then contradicted himself by saying Harry wasn't on the cameras. He's not real either.

Good point! I missed that one.

Post by **FiliusMartis** » 29 Jan 2010

From what I understood, partially from reading a lot of arguments around here, Silent Hill always had a bit of weirdness going on, but it was the Alessa incident that really unleashed things and enabled the town to be able call people to it and create manifestations.

Yuki wrote:For instance, there is a series of echo messages in the forest that have absolutely nothing to do with Cheryl, of the boy shooting the deer. How would Cheryl know about these echoes? What do they have to do with HER life, when all the other echoes are clearly connected?

Exactly. Are those evidence of something supernatural going on or just random toss ins to make the fantasy more real.

I was always under the impression that Cybil is, more likely than not, not real if for no other reason than the player's psyche completely shapes her. The only people that seem to be possibly real to me are the Stewarts.

The only thing I get by calling Toulca Mall is a recording saying the security account is discontinued. But what about the 911 operator? She can't hear Harry at all... There's plenty of reasons this could be, but this is the only incident I remember where Harry attempts to make contact with another and simply cannot be perceived in any way.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 29 Jan 2010

I was always under the impression that Cybil is, more likely than not, not real if for no other reason than the player's psyche completely shapes her. The only people that seem to be possibly real to me are the Stewarts.

Except their clothing and house are different too, as are their personalities and professions.

Post by **FiliusMartis** » 29 Jan 2010

Colours is one thing... complete facial structure is quite another. On that note, they have always acted basically the same in response to Harry and the male has always been a doctor every time I played. How did you trigger otherwise?