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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Aug 2010
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I find it difficult thinking of Origins as canon, the idea of Travis saving Alessa from the fire is cool, but after that I'm mainly in it for Travis's personal story and the level design. Also, I kind of find it difficult thinking of Homecoming as a Silent Hill game. Period.

Also, I think it was once confirmed that the In Water ending was the canon ending for the game, although I personally like Leave the best.

I think that we have to at least take the original trilogy as canon, or we won't get any ground covered. SH4 wasn't even originally supposed to be a Silent Hill game, so that's a little questionable, and then after that we have different developers. So with that I think we should count 1-3 as having really happened ... just not in the real world.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 15 May 2008
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Doctor Eggnog wrote:
SH4 wasn't even originally supposed to be a Silent Hill game, so that's a little questionable, and then after that we have different developers. So with that I think we should count 1-3 as having really happened ... just not in the real world.

People keep saying this, but no one ever provides a source. I'd love to know where people get this from aside from wild speculation and unfounded internet rumors.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Dec 2009
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paladin181 wrote:
People keep saying this, but no one ever provides a source. I'd love to know where people get this from aside from wild speculation and unfounded internet rumors.


You mean besides the fact the game has nothing to do with Silent Hill except for little subtle hints that were later added to the game such as calling the killer Walter Sutherland, and naming the Superintendent Sunderland.


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 21 May 2010
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paladin181 wrote:
People keep saying this, but no one ever provides a source. I'd love to know where people get this from aside from wild speculation and unfounded internet rumors.



I agree....from what i understand this game was always meant to be a SH game...the only thing i remember the creators saying was that they wanted to try out something different for the series, but that their intentions was for it to always be a SH game...i'm not sure where folks keep gettin' that info from either....


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 29 Jun 2009
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you mean walter sullivan. i think all the games fit into the timeline.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Also, I think it was once confirmed that the In Water ending was the canon ending for the game


This isn't true.

Quote:
You mean besides the fact the game has nothing to do with Silent Hill except for little subtle hints that were later added to the game such as calling the killer Walter Sutherland, and naming the Superintendent Sunderland.


This isn't true either. If you think Walter and Superintendent Sunderland are the only connections to Silent Hill, you've done a terrible job at paying attention.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2007
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It's just an old rumor that sprung up to justify that SH4 frankly wasn't up to par with the last three installments. Nothing more, nothing less, and no more true because of it.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?

Missing since: 28 Aug 2006
Notes left: 62
I won't attempt to shoehorn the events of Shattered Memories into the events of Silent Hill 1 and Silent Hill 3, even if I do have a few ideas on how to do so, mainly because I've found that others would perhaps not to want to them.

So I'll just say how I'd like to interpret this game. Nobody has to debate me, it's just a personal preference on how I personally like to interpret Shattered Memories.

And this assumes that everything up until Harry walking into the office at the end was simply her imagination and not Harry Mason's manifestation interacting with the actual town.

Discontiniuity aside, I like to think of this entire game is Heather (yes, from SH3) imagining how the events of the first game happened, possibly after either reading Harry's notes or from being told as bedtime story, but she got details and names confused along with some mix-up from both Cheryl's and Alessa's memories (not surprising considering all the lives that she has lived). It works into the whole theme of memories and how they are recalled.

First, the video tapes could be from Cheryl's first life with Harry or they could be from Heather's first life. Either way we can assume that they exist and aren't imagined like the rest.

Heather doesn't know what Cybil looked like hence the changed appearance, but she might know the name from Harry Mason relating the story to her once. Same with Lisa. Harry might have said she was a drug addict and died from a head wound but didn't say any more than that. She might still recall from Alessa's memories that her true mother was named Dahlia, but is either remembering her as Harry Mason's first wife and Cheryl's adopted mother (more confusion), or doesn't recall Dahlia's actual appearance and has substituted another (some have suggested that 'Dahlia' is a manifestation of Heather's Electra complex but I won't go into detail here). Maybe for stability reasons, Heather is remembering both her true mother and the man she thought of as her father as being together at one time as parents. He might have told her about the locations and events of his adventure, but she imagined them differently than what actually occurred (for example, Harry has an advanced cell phone back in 1983). About Harry's death in a car crash? She could be remembering that different since it's less traumatic than being stabbed in your chair by an unholy abomination. Heather might recall once living in Silent Hill on different streets through Alessa's memories.

Still doesn't fit with "You mother is still alive." (considering both of her mothers are dead if she was in fact Heather from SH3, unless Harry Mason got re-married to another woman and then separated or got separated from his first wife and then she died from cancer; but that's a whole can of worms I won't get into) or the psychologist named Michael Kauffman (who we clearly saw die), I know. Still it would have been nice if the psychologist outright stated that Heather's current mother who is still alive is called Dahlia, or said that Harry Mason died in a car crash 18 years ago. Cybil said the last part but then that could also be part of Cheryl's dream. And just to open the door to possibilities we never to hear that Heather's mom in the real world is named Dahilia. We can assume it is from everything we've seen but it isn't confirmed. Please correct me if I am mistaken. I haven't played out all the endings.

About Cheryl being 25? I might be wrong and I just missed it, but was there an official date as to exactly when the therapy session was taking place?

Now I'm sure lots of people can poke holes in this theory or insist upon inconsistencies or cite Ochem's razor, again it's just a pleasant thought I had when I saw the appearance of Cheryl.

My first time through I didn't pick up that his name was Kauffman, and I got the Drunken ending the first time. Even then I have a few ideas of how this could have been resolved (mainly if you assume that everything is totally subjective, perhaps even the video tapes or even whether the psychologist was real as well; either that or its just a coincidence), but I won't share them here or will I use any more contortions of logic or argument. As I said, it's how I would like to think of this game since I love both the original and the third game.

I personally could see either event happening, and I'm happy with either one (though I am also convinced that this is happening in an alternative universe and thus is not burdened with the continuity of the first few games).

I can still enjoy the thought that this game has the potential to add more depth to SH1 and SH3 while still remaining its own separate work.

Thank you.


Last edited by Denizen on 20 Sep 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Dec 2009
Notes left: 78
AuraTwilight wrote:
Quote:
You mean besides the fact the game has nothing to do with Silent Hill except for little subtle hints that were later added to the game such as calling the killer Walter Sutherland, and naming the Superintendent Sunderland.


This isn't true either. If you think Walter and Superintendent Sunderland are the only connections to Silent Hill, you've done a terrible job at paying attention.


What else is there? Robbie the rabbit in Ellen's apartment? These little things could just have easily been thrown in towards the end of the game. We knew nothing about Walter Sullivan except from a little scrap of paper in SH2, he could've been anyone. I'm not saying I'm upset they used Walter Sullivan, I just don't think they intended for the killer to be him at first.

Even if this whole thing was a huge rumor that even got to GameTrailers when they did a retrospect on the SH games, it's still more of a side story than an actual SH game. It should've had the number 4 removed from the title. I'm just saying, there are so many reasons for this NOT to be a Silent Hill game then for it to be one at all.

After SH3, it was a dissapointment. It didn't even looks as good graphics wise compared to SH3, and it didn't even take place in Silent Hill. I love the series, but I have a problem with The Room and Homecoming.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Discontiniuity aside, I like to think of this entire game is Heather (yes, from SH3) imagining how the events of the first game happened, possibly after either reading Harry's notes or from being told as bedtime story, but she got details and names confused along with some mix-up from both Cheryl's and Alessa's memories (not surprising considering all the lives that she has lived). It works into the whole theme of memories and how they are recalled.

First, the video tapes could be from Cheryl's first life with Harry or they could be from Heather's first life. Either way we can assume that they exist and aren't imagined like the rest.


But if Heather has Alessa's memories, how could she not know exactly what happened? Why would she imagine Harry's appearance incorrectly? How can the video tapes be real if they depict Dahlia and Harry being married and then divorced/involved in affairs/spousal abuse/alcohol abuse? (Harry's wife, a black haired woman instead of a blonde named Dahlia, died of illness and was a kind woman).

Quote:
Heather doesn't know what Cybil looked like hence the changed appearance, but she might know the name from Harry Mason relating the story to her once. Same with Lisa. Harry might have said she was a drug addict and died from a head wound but didn't say any more than that. She might still recall from Alessa's memories that her true mother was named Dahlia, but is either remembering her as Harry Mason's first wife and Cheryl's adopted mother (more confusion), or doesn't recall Dahlia's actual appearance and has substituted another (some have suggested that 'Dahlia' is a manifestation of Heather's Electra complex but I won't go into detail here). Maybe for stability reasons, Heather is remembering both her true mother and the man she thought of as her father as being together at one time as parents. He might have told her about the locations and events of his adventure, but she imagined them differently than what actually occurred (for example, Harry has an advanced cell phone back in 1983). About Harry's death in a car crash? She could be remembering that different since it's less traumatic than being stabbed in your chair by an unholy abomination. Heather might recall once living in Silent Hill on different streets through Alessa's memories.


So, you're basically positing that Heather is so stupid she can't keep her own memories straight, creating entirely false delusions even though she's perfectly able to keep track of her three lifetimes during the actual events of SH3 while she's under monster attacks.

Quote:
Still doesn't fit with "You mother is still alive." (considering both of her mothers are dead if she was in fact Heather from SH3, unless Harry Mason got re-married to another woman and then separated or got separated from his first wife and then she died from cancer; but that's a whole can of worms I won't get into) or the psychologist named Michael Kauffman (who we clearly saw die), I know. Still it would have been nice if the psychologist outright stated that Heather's current mother who is still alive is called Dahlia, or said that Harry Mason died in a car crash 18 years ago. Cybil said the last part but then that could also be part of Cheryl's dream. And just to open the door to possibilities we never to hear that Heather's mom in the real world is named Dahilia. We can assume it is from everything we've seen but it isn't confirmed. Please correct me if I am mistaken. I haven't played out all the endings.


We know Cheryl's mother is named Dahlia Mason; it's not up to debate. Moreover, even if she WASN'T, she appears to pick up Cheryl from the clinic in the ending. Who the fuck is she, if not her mother?

Quote:
About Cheryl being 25? I might be wrong and I just missed it, but was there an official date as to exactly when the therapy session was taking place?


2010. SH3 takes place in 1997, by the way. SH3's Heather, then, would be 30.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?

Missing since: 28 Aug 2006
Notes left: 62
Quote:
But if Heather has Alessa's memories, how could she not know exactly what happened?


See below about possible mental trauma.

Quote:
Why would she imagine Harry's appearance incorrectly?


Artistic license on the part of the design team to make their characters distinct. I don't trust any of the characters' appearances in this game, knowing that any one of them could be just an incorrect recollection or a re-imagining. If she would remember anyone's face clearly it would obviously be her father, but hey people do forget the faces of the people they love most when enough time passes. It dosen't happen, but it's not impossible.

Except for Cheryl. Obviously based upon Heather, whose resemblance sparked this discussion.

Quote:
How can the video tapes be real if they depict Dahlia and Harry being married and then divorced/involved in affairs/spousal abuse/alcohol abuse? (Harry's wife, a black haired woman instead of a blonde named Dahlia, died of illness and was a kind woman).


I assumed that the tapes were correct. I don't know for certain and neither does anyone else. What is know that is everything that we see is from the perspective of a mentally-unhinged Cheryl.

For all we know this is Heather, returning to another foggy world after trying to make sense of what happened to her father and her own past, and speaking to a phantom-shade of Kauffman who may or may not be leading her on about really exists. The video tapes could be part of it, even if they've always told the truth in previous games. Again, this is an assumption.

Of course, depending on what ending you get determines which video tapes you see. If the tapes are true, then obviously this theory is irreconcilable with the Sleeze and Siren ending, and probably the Divorce ending and the Weak Ending. Not so much the Drunk ending; still possible. Unlikely but not impossible.

Again, if these tapes are true (which we can never know for certain; it's taking place from Cheryl's perspective), then it is in fact a different continuity, but then all the different endings of every Silent Hill game are.

Quote:
So, you're basically positing that Heather is so stupid she can't keep her own memories straight, creating entirely false delusions even though she's perfectly able to keep track of her three lifetimes during the actual events of SH3 while she's under monster attacks.


I posit nothing and I admitted as much many times. As I said before it is merely enjoyable imaginative exercise.

I cannot speak for Heather's intellect only of possible mental stability as Heather aged or went through a mid-life crisis or some other trauma from having such a disturbing childhood.

And even you or anyone else can claim to know exactly to what extent Heather remembers of her 3 life times worth of memories, only that she does remember being Alessa, and that was at being a teenager. Who knows what mid-crisis or other trauma drove her to possible confusion about those distant events? It would not surprise me if Heather later was in extreme denial about being Alessa or having connections with cults or their gods. It would not be the first time a Silent Hill character was confused about past events.

But then it's not exactly her memories are they? More like her own possible re-imagining of what her father went through based upon what fragments remain. Even if she remembered being Alessa or Cheryl, neither witnessed Harry's journey through Silent Hill. His notes? Him telling her?

After all both versions thought of their father as a brave man. It is a thin thread, I'll admit, but then I'm merely imagining here.

Quote:
We know Cheryl's mother is named Dahlia Mason; it's not up to debate. Moreover, even if she WASN'T, she appears to pick up Cheryl from the clinic in the ending. Who the fuck is she, if not her mother?


Admittedly I did not get that ending on my recent playthrough, however, if I were speculating about possibilities as to the identity of the woman who picked up her up at the clinic, I would say: a shade of the villainous Dahila Gillipse, still existing in some form? Another manifestation of this false scenario as Cheryl finds comfort in the arms of a false mother, even one named after her cruel actual mother? A hallucination? Did Kauffman see her? Perhaps this is a repeat of Harry's scene at the bar with Michelle, only Heather believes that the person that is picking her up at the clinic is her mother? As others have posited before: could Harry Mason have re-married at any point? Unlikely, but not impossible.

Again, just speculating. You're probably absolutely correct. After all Kauffman did say "Your mother is alive and not the monster you make her out to be." Still, I don't trust any version of Kauffman, real, alternative universe, or possible ghostly manifestation.

Quote:
2010. SH3 takes place in 1997, by the way. SH3's Heather, then, would be 30.


If you don't mind, I would like citation of this. It's not that I doubt your word, only that it would clarify things.


I bring up this speculation because the thought of the producer Tomm Hulett first outright saying that it was taking place in a different continuity which I will accept gladly if that is what the maker of the game says...

...but what intrigues me is that he retracted that statement, saying that it taking place in a different continuity may not be true.


Last edited by Denizen on 21 Sep 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 15 May 2008
Notes left: 1538
Last seen at: Right behind you
Citation of what, the year it takes place, or Cheryl's/Heather's age in 1997?

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?

Missing since: 28 Aug 2006
Notes left: 62
Year in which the game takes place.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 15 May 2008
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It was stated by the devs in an interview (which I've spent the better part of an hour trying to hunt down for you, btw) that it takes place in the modern world because being at a year in the past wouldn't do anything to help the story. Also, iphone/android phone are relatively new. 2009-2010 is the insinuated date of the game. There may be other things ,but I specifically remember this interview.

Page 5 of this interview briefly addresses this indirectly.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?

Missing since: 28 Aug 2006
Notes left: 62
An interesting interview, paladin181. Thank you for the link, though you did not have to on my account. Though I did see a specific date, other than as you said "these modern times", and as you said the Iphone was relatively new (Wiki says 2007), your argument holds weight and I concede to the altogether possibility of the interview occurring in 2010.

Assuming Harry's phone wasn't simply another conjured device and was based on an actual smartphone which Charyl has seen and is familiar, however, Blackberries have been in existence since 1996, and saw development in new features in 2002.

But then this is the Silent Hill universe, and I can't speak for possible inventions that might have been developed earlier or later of that world with features such as touchscreens. The smartphone is a clue but it's not a certainty.

Of course, if what Cheryl was suggesting was true, then Harry was using an Iphone in 1992, eighteen years ago. Something that Kauffman could have used to convince her that the story she was telling was false.

Thank you again, paladin181. I liked that interview, but I was hoping perhaps for a specific date that spelled out in the game, like on a newspaper or document.

Ah! Found it.

http://i47.tinypic.com/160rk8h.png

That makes the year around 2007-2009 if Cheryl is 25, and right around the time of iphones.

Wasn't the first game taking place in 1983?


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Again, if these tapes are true (which we can never know for certain; it's taking place from Cheryl's perspective), then it is in fact a different continuity, but then all the different endings of every Silent Hill game are.


How do you figure?

Quote:
But then it's not exactly her memories are they? More like her own possible re-imagining of what her father went through based upon what fragments remain. Even if she remembered being Alessa or Cheryl, neither witnessed Harry's journey through Silent Hill. His notes? Him telling her?


Yea, if you ignore that Alessa has psychic powers and was probably watching everything in SH1 to some extent.

Quote:
Admittedly I did not get that ending on my recent playthrough, however, if I were speculating about possibilities as to the identity of the woman who picked up her up at the clinic, I would say: a shade of the villainous Dahila Gillipse, still existing in some form? Another manifestation of this false scenario as Cheryl finds comfort in the arms of a false mother, even one named after her cruel actual mother? A hallucination? Did Kauffman see her? Perhaps this is a repeat of Harry's scene at the bar with Michelle, only Heather believes that the person that is picking her up at the clinic is her mother? As others have posited before: could Harry Mason have re-married at any point? Unlikely, but not impossible.


The woman is named Dahlia Mason, and she exists in reality, greeting Cheryl after she breaks her delusion. She is no phantom, and Harry never remarried; that would have definitely been brought up in SH3.

Quote:
...but what intrigues me is that he retracted that statement, saying that it taking place in a different continuity may not be true.


He retracted it because fans kept complaining and harassing about how they made a game that was NON-CANON and they CHANGED EVERYTHING and so it SUCKS and yadda yadda, so it was basically "Fine, it's in continuity if you want it to be, I guess, stop being assholes."

And the first game took place in 1980, I believe. 1983 is from an outdated calculation that didn't take into account a few details, so I don't blame Climax for using it.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 21 Feb 2012
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ShadowBaby wrote:
^Exactly

I believe Climax has stated that Shattered Memories is a separate story and is in no way meant to be included in the classic franchise. Meaning there is no correlation between the events of SM and the original storyline. This isn't a "remake" it's a "re-imagining", new and different.


That cleared up a lot for me, even though I haven't played the original
game, I had in mind that it was a remake,and from what I read about the original I thought"this has almost nothing similar to the original.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 25 Jun 2008
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Shattered Memories can be seen in a simmilar way as the movie in that it is somebodies original take on the first game.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 29 May 2010
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Shattered Memories is a reimagining of the first game, basically a modern retelling. That means it has no chronological ties to any of the other games. The Harry in this game is different than the Harry from the first game, and Cheryl in this game has no ties to Cheryl/Alessa/Heather from any of the other games. It's just like when someone remakes a movie; even if the original had sequels, the remake doesn't tie in with the sequels because it's a retelling of the original story.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cheryl is Heather?
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Feb 2011
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This is clearly impossible, as cheryls dad harry died in a car accident, and you actually see where heathers dad dies. Total alternate universe. similar to that of another game i've played over and over (Kingdom hearts) theres two of each person. one in the real world and one in an alternate world each have different names etc. so in this instance the real world would be heather and the other world would be cheryl.

Well at least thats the way i see it.

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