Search FAQ

Login | Register


All times are UTC [ DST ]


It is currently 26 May 2017




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message

Just Passing Through
 Post subject:

Missing since: 13 Dec 2009
Notes left: 46
pj wrote:
^You're right, it was the same shadow running from spot to spot.

Well, maybe it is different based on how you play. I could swear that the first time I played through that the shadow was once of a raw shock rather than a person... but I haven't seen that since. :/


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11370
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
No, it's just the same Cheryl specter running around the room.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 09 May 2008
Notes left: 507
I have no idea why it as doing that. Maybe imitaing motions that actually occurred? What was happening in the conversations? Wasn't someone apologizing for ruining the romantic evening?

_________________
I don't make a signature.
Except for the part of the signature explaining that I don't.
And that.
And that.
And that.
...
...and that.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject:

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 559
Last seen at: The place where you aren't now
If you play it out like that, Cheryl appologizes for ruining Harry and Dahlia's evening. She says something else for me on another playthrough, though I forgot what.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11370
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
It's worth keeping in mind that this is the last Cheryl Shadow in the game, and even though you're not in the Nightmare, the door is frozen and it follows the logic of her repression puzzles.

In my opinion, this was the last memory, besides the actual death, that Cheryl repressed, because if we follow the loose chronological order Cheryl paints for us, this should be the most recent moment before the divorce, and then Harry's Death.

The Masons were about to reconcile romantically, and whatever's wrong between them, they were clearly getting over it right then, but then Cheryl ruined the moment. She had to have realized this.

Thus, Cheryl's understanding is that she ruined their chance at making up, leading to the divorce, leading to Harry's death. This is why she blames herself for the death of Harry Mason, and the turning point that sent Cheryl into her life-long self-destructive complex.

I also offer the observation that the Cheryl Shadow leads through the door, which leads directly to Dahlia, whom is an avatar for Cheryl. She then seduces, and haves sex with Harry. However, she is "Dahlia." Could this moment possibly not be so much (entirely) Elecktra-incestual in nature, but Cheryl having her "parents" have their deserved make-up?

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject:

Missing since: 20 Jan 2010
Notes left: 217
Last seen at: North Carolina, USA
^Interesting thoughts, AT.

I want to know about the shadow in the shack at the hunting lodge. (was that the first? I can't remember) It is near the party in the forest, but the whole hunting scenario doesn't sound like Cheryl's memories. Did I miss something?

_________________
I'm currently out in search of myself. If I happen come come back before I return, please ask me to wait for myself.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
Notes left: 2523
ShadowBaby wrote:
^Interesting thoughts, AT.

I want to know about the shadow in the shack at the hunting lodge. (was that the first? I can't remember) It is near the party in the forest, but the whole hunting scenario doesn't sound like Cheryl's memories. Did I miss something?


I'm going to venture a guess that the shadow in the shack was Cheryl hiding after she was drugged or some such thing.


And no, the hunting had nothing to do with Cheryl herself; it's one of the reasons I think SH is still supernatural in Shattered Memories.

_________________
Image
Beyond the Joystick - game reviews, plot recaps, and more
http://beyond-the-joystick.blogspot.com - Also on Tumblr!


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject:

Missing since: 02 Dec 2008
Notes left: 264
Yuki wrote:
And no, the hunting had nothing to do with Cheryl herself


Ok, going a bit off topic, but Yuki, that's a totally unfair thing to just present as absolute truth.

The fact of the matter is you don't know that for sure because none of us know for sure what's up with the hunting scenes. I personally think that she does have something to do with the hunting, and I've written extensively on my reasoning in other threads.

I can see and appreciate your point of view about it, and why you think it suggests there's something supernatural going on, but I could easily offer a slew of valid counter-arguments. So its unfair to present your assessment as if its absolute fact.


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject:

Missing since: 05 Nov 2003
Notes left: 128
AuraTwilight wrote:
I also offer the observation that the Cheryl Shadow leads through the door, which leads directly to Dahlia, whom is an avatar for Cheryl. She then seduces, and haves sex with Harry. However, she is "Dahlia." Could this moment possibly not be so much (entirely) Elecktra-incestual in nature, but Cheryl having her "parents" have their deserved make-up?


I really like that idea.

Could that also be why she replaces Michelle for Dahlia in the club?

If you consider the Sleaze ending and take it that Cheryl, on some level, knows the basics of who Michelle and Lisa are, she could be guiding things towards that reconciliation. Michelle is left all alone one way or another and, in fact, on two occassions seems to lead Harry to Dahlia - the more worthy woman? Lisa ends up dead. I can't help feeling Michelle got the better deal. Why is that?

No idea where I'm going with that but I like your theory.


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject:

Missing since: 12 Nov 2009
Notes left: 11
ShadowBaby wrote:
^Interesting thoughts, AT.

I want to know about the shadow in the shack at the hunting lodge. (was that the first? I can't remember) It is near the party in the forest, but the whole hunting scenario doesn't sound like Cheryl's memories. Did I miss something?


I still can't figure out EXACTLY what went wrong at the party. I just know that Cheryl clearly wanted to leave because there was some commotion. I think a lot of what I missed comes from a text-message echo from a sleeping bag near the fishing cabin that I couldn't really read on my tv. It sounds like there's some sort of voilence occuring at the party, and this would also be shown by the bloody coat outside the cabin. One theory I had is that the boy who was basically being trained by his father to "kill" (both the hunting voicemail and text message) was maybe at the party and let some of his newly found violent tendencies fly.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 16 Sep 2009
Notes left: 274
lesboctopus wrote:
ShadowBaby wrote:
^Interesting thoughts, AT.

I want to know about the shadow in the shack at the hunting lodge. (was that the first? I can't remember) It is near the party in the forest, but the whole hunting scenario doesn't sound like Cheryl's memories. Did I miss something?


I still can't figure out EXACTLY what went wrong at the party. I just know that Cheryl clearly wanted to leave because there was some commotion. I think a lot of what I missed comes from a text-message echo from a sleeping bag near the fishing cabin that I couldn't really read on my tv. It sounds like there's some sort of voilence occuring at the party, and this would also be shown by the bloody coat outside the cabin. One theory I had is that the boy who was basically being trained by his father to "kill" (both the hunting voicemail and text message) was maybe at the party and let some of his newly found violent tendencies fly.
She may have wanted to leave because that one girl at the partyended up drowning in the Toluca, though I'm not sure if that girl drowning is consistent throughout all playthroughs.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject:

Missing since: 02 Dec 2008
Notes left: 264
^Its not consistent.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 16 Sep 2009
Notes left: 274
pj wrote:
^Its not consistent.
I see, it can still be a possibility though, just not definite.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject:

Missing since: 20 Jan 2010
Notes left: 217
Last seen at: North Carolina, USA
I thought she was drugged, or taking drugs, and on a bad trip.

_________________
I'm currently out in search of myself. If I happen come come back before I return, please ask me to wait for myself.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11370
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
I really like that idea.

Could that also be why she replaces Michelle for Dahlia in the club?

If you consider the Sleaze ending and take it that Cheryl, on some level, knows the basics of who Michelle and Lisa are, she could be guiding things towards that reconciliation. Michelle is left all alone one way or another and, in fact, on two occassions seems to lead Harry to Dahlia - the more worthy woman? Lisa ends up dead. I can't help feeling Michelle got the better deal. Why is that?

No idea where I'm going with that but I like your theory.


Possibly. But it's also clear to me that Michelle represents Cheryl's clinging to the past and her idealization of Harry (just look at her relationship with John).

She's given this better deal because she's an embodiment of what Cheryl finds most important to her happiness and faith in Harry. In the end, though, Michelle leaves behind her fantasies, willingly or not, and moves on, noting in her voice mail that she is "happily single." At this point, she is now an example for Cheryl to follow.

Lisa, she probably doesn't bear any ill will to, but her subconsciousness needed to manifest her unfounded guilt, and Lisa was the best fit. Nothing personal.

(Or maybe it was personal, and Michelle escaped any hatred due to Cheryl's own desire to be the prom queen, and she rationalized, "well, you gotta fuck the prom queen.")

As for what happened at the party, she clearly got some bad drugs, and after that all sorts of shit might've happened. I kicked around the idea that she might've been raped or degraded herself with nymphomanic sex. But I'm also very confident that she witnessed the two boys stuck in the water (this might've led her to investigating them or something, if we try to avoid any supernatural implications).

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject:

Missing since: 02 Dec 2008
Notes left: 264
I think something sexual went down in that cabin. I lean toward rape because of the suggested violence, but it could have just been that, since she was on drugs, she was pressured into doing something that she was ashamed of and that she very much regretted.

I can totally see her witnessing a death or murder or something, but I just can't shake the feeling that we'd have stronger clues if that were the case. There was a lot of clear evidence for her stabbing Malcolm in the mall, and I can't help but feel that something like witnessing a few deaths would warrant similarly strong evidence.


Top
   
 

Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 22 Jul 2005
Notes left: 1407
Last seen at: room 302
My ideas on some of this for my FAQ (and I am including Echo Messages and Ice Statues in here as well)


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
NIGHTMARE #2: FOREST
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
When you reach the last lodge and go in, you notice a shadowy figure kneeling on a sheet or blanket with a pool of blood in the middle. This could mean a lot of things. Blood is used more in the forest than anywhere; there's the "Joel" messages, where the boy's father is berating him for being a sissy while taking him hunting. The bear is all bloody in some playthroughs. There is the ghost image of the dead deer over the sink in the lodge. Blood represents death, the deer is dead, Joel shot him in the "cycle of death" messages. Depending on the message, it might also say how proud grandpa will be, and that he's now a man. I find this particularly interesting, because blood may not only mean death. Recall that Cheryl isn't really 7 years old, and that sexuality and womanhood is also a prevalent theme. The figure is kneeling over a sheet covered in blood. Could this be a metaphor for womanhood as well? Joel becoming a man = Cheryl becoming a woman, growing up. Blood represents rebirth as well, death of childhood and rebirth as an adult. Joel "becomes a man" by killing a deer as a rite of passage. Cheryl becomes a woman, not necessarily by killing anything, and not necessarily related just to menstruation, but I think the blood still stands for both death and rebirth. The game shows that sexuality has been a major problem of Cheryl's. That's why blood, not just a more obvious metaphor for menstruation, but also for sexual maturity in a more general sense (puberty -> sexual maturity) takes place at the beginning of a nightmare sequence; becoming a woman and having relationships and sexual experiences isn't something Cheryl thinks on fondly. Consider the tradition in some cultures of hanging a bloody sheet out after a woman's wedding night tp prove her virginal status before, and to show her new status as a grown woman. Similar: the paintings in the bordello of scantily-clad women with butterfly wings. Butterfly=grown version of caterpillar, mature version. Cheryl starts out as a 7 year old, immature, caterpillar-like and struggles with sexual maturity, represented by things like the scantily clad women. Joel apparently doesn't like hunting much, he's crying and his father is screaming at him for being a sissy. It's a traumatic experience for him. He's been pushed into it by his father, who apparently can't be proud of him for other things he's done. He wants his son to go hunting and bring home a deer. He's the one who insists that it's a rite of passage and needs to be done to "become a man." Cheryl certainly wasn't pushed into adulthood by Harry in precisely the same way; he died long before she hit puberty. Still, it could be said she had to grow up faster due to the stress of her parents fighting and then Harry dying. And then, after puberty, she ended up mixing sexuality into it by sleeping with older men/father figures. I thought maybe it could be something like miscarriage/abortion, but I'm not too sure about that.

Also regarding the forest level: It reminds me a lot of the idea of some cultures taking adolescents into the woods for rites of passage, or to other isolated places. Likewise, Joel is taken to the woods to hunt and "become a man" by his father. The drugs and partying can also be seen as a rite of passage, she is "the new girl" and probably doing these things to be accepted into this group and feel more grown up, i.e., independent from parents. Even just drinking itself can be seen as a rite of passage. Joel, and Cheryl/Jackie go into the woods as helpless/insecure children and emerge fundamentally changed in some way, either psychologically or in the way others view them (grandpa will be proud; the rest of the kids will accept the girl, etc).

And then there's the drowning boy ghost. It could symbolize choking/drowning/freezing like so many other things, but I think it may also just symbolize trauma. The boy goes down there playing and having fun with innocent intentions, and the brother drowns/is trapped. The trauma that results was not seen beforehand, it was unexpected and therefore even more traumatic, kind of like Harry's death. Same with the sleeping bag, it varies depending on the ending you're headed toward, but it starts innocently enough and then something bad happens.
[to be continued]

@ PJ: Possible, but I saw it more as a general and symbolic thing, sex/death/rebirth, youth/maturity, which is a large theme elsewhere (the doll with pigtails contrasts an adult body with girlish pigtails; there are the pigtails messages; the wig messages talk a lot about the appearance vs. actual age of a prostitute, etc).

Restoration01 wrote:
About the "Tunnel of Love", I wonder what happened there?
There were 3 larvel stalkers there... Can anyone make a guess what happened there?

The echo messages show unhappy times witnessed between her parents ("Does it look like we're having fun?" etc). Some message variations are about ruining a ride, and most have to do with the contrast between then and now, as in, her parents were in love once, but not anymore.

Another theme seen a lot is the now/then, past/present theme; consider the balloon/Gym messages:

********************
Here's to us (1)
********************
Here's to us. Never gonna get old. Never gonna be
like our parents. Never gonna stop loving.

********************
Here's to us (2)
********************
Here's to us. We're never gonna get old.
Never gonna be like our parents.
Never gonna blend in.

********************
Here's to us (3)
********************
Here's to our future.
We're never gonna get old.
Never gonna be like our parents.
Never gonna be apart.

Also the prom speech: "Apparently life gets worse from here on in, so let's
treasure these memories!"

The Tunnel of Love swan ice figures and the shadow figure, like the ghosts of Harry and Cheryl outside that was also shown in the intro video, show how much Cheryl values memories, and that a lot of the memories show the past being better than the present (her father used to be alilve, her parents used to love each other, she used to have happy times with them, etc).

_________________
ImageImage
Camhacks & stuff: SH1 | SH2 | SH3 | SH4 | SHSM | FaceBook | YouTube


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Dec 2009
Notes left: 99
Last seen at: My own Otherworld
I haven't read through all the theories but I think they represent Cheryl running away from the truth. (After completing it I see Harry in these parts representing the truth , and the shadow of Cheryl representing her child-like refusal to accept it) Especially in the amusement park, which I take as showing there's nowhere else for her denial to hide.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11370
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
I wouldn't say that Harry represents the truth in ANY part, but he is seeking it.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 21 Feb 2012
Notes left: 199
Last seen at: Lost Empire Of Rieubane
DirtyNorris wrote:
I just saw it as Cheryl running away from her past, and being scared of her father finding out about it.


I don't think its that becuase when michelle shows harry cheryl's older picture at the reunion he doesn't recognize her, he says there's a resemblance but doesn't know its her so he can't find out about if he doesn't know its her.

_________________
When Death Comes, It Comes For All.


Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: