I'm a bit confused... (older Dahlia.)

[AuraTwilight]

No, he wears it in every scene. Regardless of costume, it's not always very visible if you miss it, because the focus is on Dahlia's hand.

[pj]

Random, but it always bugged me that their wedding rings don't match.

In the area I live in, matching wedding rings isn't kosher, so I guess that's just how the Masons do things.

Yeah, my wife and I have wedding bands that don't match. They're similar in style, but they're not a matching set.

[vanbakura]

It appears that Harry could only interact with a certain few people in the real world, and most of them where by phone. The Dahlia he calls on the phone is the real one (that's why she gets upset and screams at Harry, thinking it's a prank) but the one you meet later is Cheryl's projection of her mother ("she's not the monster you make her out to be").
The reason we see her in the same clothes as younger Dahlia is to creep out and disgust the player, as you where perfectly happy to hang out with a sexy young girl but when faced with the idea that she may have been an old and haggard woman and what you saw before was just an illusion placed on top, you are repelled.

[pj]

^Whether or not Harry was capable of interacting with anyone in the real world is up for interpretation (and personally I don't think he could). And in either case it wouldn't effect the interpretation Aura laid out a few posts ago: young Dahlia is a self-projection, but older Dahlia isn't a self-projection, either in the bedroom or on the phone (which, if you think like I do that Harry couldn't interact with the outside world, is why she gets upset and screams at Harry).

If you're going to assume Harry called the real life Dahlia, you have to consider that Dahlia offered to go get Cheryl for Harry on the call, which doesn't make sense since we know Cheryl's at the lighthouse with Kaufmann. (Harry: "Cheryl?" Dahlia: "No, Dahlia. You want me to get her for you?")

To me, that chalks the call up to another mental disassociation.

Aside: am I the only one that was more repelled by Younger Dahlia than the Older one? There was something tragic about Older Dahlia that I sympathized with. Younger Dahlia is a fun character and a scene-stealer, don't get me wrong, but she was more repellant as a character. Even more so considering what she turns out to be.

[Yuki]

It appears that Harry could only interact with a certain few people in the real world, and most of them where by phone. The Dahlia he calls on the phone is the real one (that's why she gets upset and screams at Harry, thinking it's a prank) but the one you meet later is Cheryl's projection of her mother ("she's not the monster you make her out to be").
The reason we see her in the same clothes as younger Dahlia is to creep out and disgust the player, as you where perfectly happy to hang out with a sexy young girl but when faced with the idea that she may have been an old and haggard woman and what you saw before was just an illusion placed on top, you are repelled.

I'm inclined to agree with this, though I really wish I could recall the exact script from when Harry calls Dahlia.

Though I don't quite think that old!Dahlia is supposed to creep you out because of an illusion. I think it was more simply just to be that young!Dahlia and old!Dahlia are separate, but they had to look similar for players to make the connection.

[pj]

^Yuki, check this video out and skip ahead to about 8:37 to see the scene (with subtitles)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8e2Qb0TFY4

I just can't think of a reason why the real Dahlia would offer to go and get Cheryl when Cheryl's in a therapy session.

Also: I love Harry's "Cheryl...what's happening to me?" line when the world transforms. I played with subtitles on my first round through, but I think I would've missed that line if I hadn't.

[AuraTwilight]

If you're going to assume Harry called the real life Dahlia, you have to consider that Dahlia offered to go get Cheryl for Harry on the call, which doesn't make sense since we know Cheryl's at the lighthouse with Kaufmann. (Harry: "Cheryl?" Dahlia: "No, Dahlia. You want me to get her for you?")

That's a good point, but seeing as how Dahlia goes to pick up Cheryl at the lighthouse (sometimes) anyway, this can legitimately go either way.

[Yuki]

Ah, I seeee. I remember being skeptical of it when I typed the last post (because I didn't remember the script), but that explains my skepticism. I'm unsure of why Dahlia would be PISSED yet not angry when he meets her, though...

I don't think "Cheryl... what's happening to me?" was directed at Cheryl, though. I remember that line and it sounded like he was wondering aloud what may happen to Cheryl, THEN asking what's happening.

[pj]

If you're going to assume Harry called the real life Dahlia, you have to consider that Dahlia offered to go get Cheryl for Harry on the call, which doesn't make sense since we know Cheryl's at the lighthouse with Kaufmann. (Harry: "Cheryl?" Dahlia: "No, Dahlia. You want me to get her for you?")

That's a good point, but seeing as how Dahlia goes to pick up Cheryl at the lighthouse (sometimes) anyway, this can legitimately go either way.

The wording still strikes me as off in that case, though. Maybe if she said something like, "You want me to have her call you back," or "She'll be back later," yeah, but the way its worded makes it sound like she's offering to go find Cheryl in the next room or something.

You could always stipulate that Dahlia didn't know Cheryl wasn't home, but you kind of have to stretch to make that one work--especially considering Dr. K's assistant says "They're early" at the beginning of the game, suggesting Cheryl's not alone. Since Dahlia picks Cheryl up it really just makes the most sense for her to be the one dropping her off....

P.S. I'm sure this is covered somewhere else on this forum, but does anyone know how you trigger the Cheryl-Dahlia-hug cutscene at the end of the game? It showed up on my second play through but not my first, and I have no guesses why.

I don't think "Cheryl... what's happening to me?" was directed at Cheryl, though. I remember that line and it sounded like he was wondering aloud what may happen to Cheryl, THEN asking what's happening.

Yeah, you could be right. I just love it because its such a desperate and futile thing to say, especially in the face of all the shit that's going down. it does a great job of conveying how lost and hopeless Harry's feeling--and how confused and vulnerable I felt when I first played it, too.

[Yuki]

If you're going to assume Harry called the real life Dahlia, you have to consider that Dahlia offered to go get Cheryl for Harry on the call, which doesn't make sense since we know Cheryl's at the lighthouse with Kaufmann. (Harry: "Cheryl?" Dahlia: "No, Dahlia. You want me to get her for you?")

That's a good point, but seeing as how Dahlia goes to pick up Cheryl at the lighthouse (sometimes) anyway, this can legitimately go either way.

The wording still strikes me as off in that case, though. Maybe if she said something like, "You want me to have her call you back," or "She'll be back later," yeah, but the way its worded makes it sound like she's offering to go find Cheryl in the next room or something.

You could always stipulate that Dahlia didn't know Cheryl wasn't home, but you kind of have to stretch to make that one work--especially considering Dr. K's assistant says "They're early" at the beginning of the game, suggesting Cheryl's not alone. Since Dahlia picks Cheryl up it really just makes the most sense for her to be the one dropping her off....

P.S. I'm sure this is covered somewhere else on this forum, but does anyone know how you trigger the Cheryl-Dahlia-hug cutscene at the end of the game? It showed up on my second play through but not my first, and I have no guesses why.

I don't think "Cheryl... what's happening to me?" was directed at Cheryl, though. I remember that line and it sounded like he was wondering aloud what may happen to Cheryl, THEN asking what's happening.

Yeah, you could be right. I just love it because its such a desperate and futile thing to say, especially in the face of all the shit that's going down. it does a great job of conveying how lost and hopeless Harry's feeling--and how confused and vulnerable I felt when I first played it, too.

I took the assistant's "They're early" to mean the patient; it seemed like Climax trying to mask the gender of the patient to avoid spoiling that you're Cheryl rather than to indicate multiple people. But, I do agree it makes little sense that Dahlia offers to go "find" her. She would know she was at the Lighthouse Clinic. However, I also don't quite understand why old!Dahlia would react in that way.

I haven't figured out what triggers the hugging cutscene. I got it on two of my Love Lost endings, but my third and my Sleaze and Sirens didn't have it.

I like that line as well. I found Harry to be my favorite protagonist, realistic-ness-wise. He actually panicked at the monsters, which none of the others really did save for maybe the first time they saw them.

[Dogg Thang]

It seems hard for me to think that any phone call Harry made was to a real Dahlia. Having said that, the game implies that Harry's journey takes over a day. The only real time reference I can think of was when young Dahlia texts about what happened the night before (and Harry backs this up if you call her after).

That amount of time does not reconcile with one session with Kaufmann which, in reality, is unlikely to last more than an hour. Even in play time alone, forgetting Harry's overnight journey, the time hits about five hours. Longer than a therapy session.

It's possible that Dahlia says she'll go and get Cheryl because Cheryl is at home at that point. We see the beginning of the therapy process, and the end, but we're not given concrete time references in between. It could take place across multiple sessions - which could be backed up by Kaufmann's frustration that seems to come out of nowhere at the end.

Cheryl may not always have been at the lighthouise.

But, like I said, for me, I have a hard time seeing how a manifestation of Harry could communicate with real people taking into account how it resolves. Cybill does act like she's real at the end but, as far as I interpret it, everything that takes place outside Kaufmann's room and outside of those tapes simply doesn't exist. At least, not in the forms we see in the game. Just my interpretation.

[AuraTwilight]

It seems hard for me to think that any phone call Harry made was to a real Dahlia. Having said that, the game implies that Harry's journey takes over a day. The only real time reference I can think of was when young Dahlia texts about what happened the night before (and Harry backs this up if you call her after).

That amount of time does not reconcile with one session with Kaufmann which, in reality, is unlikely to last more than an hour. Even in play time alone, forgetting Harry's overnight journey, the time hits about five hours. Longer than a therapy session.

If we consider that Harry's experiences are in an alternate mental plane that doesn't have to follow the real world's flow of time, then there's no problem here. Even if Harry's experiences place the calls between "Dahlia" and "Jimmy Capra" apart by, let's say two hours, Jimmy Capra could receive his call mere moments after Dahlia's.

But, like I said, for me, I have a hard time seeing how a manifestation of Harry could communicate with real people taking into account how it resolves. Cybill does act like she's real at the end but

Keep in mind that even if the people Harry phones are real, the people he meets face to face cannot be real (You could maaaybe make a case for Cybil, [though i'd disagree], but Young Dahlia, Michelle, and Lisa are imaginary).

[Dogg Thang]

It's definitely true that the time could be shaken up a bit but it's already abridged. There are already gaps. If anything could be shown to be happening in real time, like a phone call, that would suggest a defined time frame for me.

But I don't actually see what aim would be served by having any of the phone calls be to real people. We know that many (most) of the conversations change depending on how the player plays (and so representing what mental state Cheryl is in). This is true for the phone calls. And for the phone calls to be real, that then would suggest that Cheryl is sitting in that session mentally making phone calls, or possibly finding some way of making them herself.

It just seems far more likely to me that Cheryl is sitting in that session and everything else happens in her head. No real people whether on or off the phone. I would also apply that to the echoes, which also change depending on Cheryl's mental state. It has been mentioned that she doesn't seem to play a role in the hunting echo. She doesn't but the memento of that one is a knife and we know she stabbed a security guard. The mental connection may simply not be as literal.

It all seems to be in her head. The only way I think it could have been otherwise is if Kaufmann had ackowledged Harry's presence at the end.

[AuraTwilight]

It's definitely true that the time could be shaken up a bit but it's already abridged. There are already gaps. If anything could be shown to be happening in real time, like a phone call, that would suggest a defined time frame for me.

So what? If we're acknowledging a supernatural presence in this universe, than muddling time is one of the Otherworld's primary powers.

But I don't actually see what aim would be served by having any of the phone calls be to real people. We know that many (most) of the conversations change depending on how the player plays (and so representing what mental state Cheryl is in). This is true for the phone calls. And for the phone calls to be real, that then would suggest that Cheryl is sitting in that session mentally making phone calls, or possibly finding some way of making them herself.

Again, this is assuming a supernatural presence. I doubt Cheryl would just be all "And then he tried to force himself on me and--oh wait, hold on, gotta make a phone call."

It just seems far more likely to me that Cheryl is sitting in that session and everything else happens in her head. No real people whether on or off the phone. I would also apply that to the echoes, which also change depending on Cheryl's mental state. It has been mentioned that she doesn't seem to play a role in the hunting echo. She doesn't but the memento of that one is a knife and we know she stabbed a security guard. The mental connection may simply not be as literal.

It still makes no sense, and it's a complete stretch, to me. For one, that knife isn't the one she stabbed the security guard with (we see THAT knife in a security locker), and there's no reason for her to invent an entire tragic story for a pair of brothers to justify the existence of a knife.

It all seems to be in her head. The only way I think it could have been otherwise is if Kaufmann had ackowledged Harry's presence at the end.

No one else acknowledged Maria's presence in SH2 (Well, except in Born from a Wish...kinda similarly to Harry).

[Dogg Thang]

If we're acknowledging a supernatural presence in this universe, than muddling time is one of the Otherworld's primary powers.

This is getting into very hypothetical territory because, personally, in the context of Shattered Memories, I don't see a supernatural presence at work but, going with it in order to run with the real phone call theories, you're right. I've always taken it as being more about perception and blackouts than actually making any changes to time itself.

The difficulty in Shattered Memories is that there are two timelines that, by the end, seem like they were set up to run simultaneously. And while, as I've suggested, there could have been breaks that we're not shown with Kaufmann and Cheryl, there seems to be nothing to suggest that time is being messed about for either of them by any Otherworld.

And, while time has been messed about for people in Silent Hill, I've seen nothing to suggest that, when they're conscious, what is happening is happening at any other speed than in real time except in one key part - the bad ending of SH1 where we see Harry in the car crash. That entire game could have happened in a split second.

Which could be exactly how it works in Shattered Memories until you propose that Harry is making phone calls to real people. That puts those phone calls as taking place in real time. And, again to me, that locks Harry to a time line as long as we see him up and about.

Which, for my interpretation of the game, doesn't matter because I don't think he's making phone calls to anyone. So Harry's journey doesn't have to be real time. It's only if we go into supernatural phone calls to real people that the whole thing muddles for me.

You're right again with Maria. That's kind of my point with Harry and Kaufmann though. Kaufmann doesn't see Harry just as people didn't see Maria. That makes sense to me. But then why would some real world bridge worker be able to hear him? Or, as some have proposed in another thread, the real world Stewarts? It's not that it couldn't happen within the world of Silent Hill - it could (like in Born From A Wish I guess) - but for it to be people of such little consequence while most people are imaginary or manifestations would seem to serve little purpose.

For one, that knife isn't the one she stabbed the security guard with (we see THAT knife in a security locker), and there's no reason for her to invent an entire tragic story for a pair of brothers to justify the existence of a knife.

Yep, you're right. I'm at a loss to explain why that hunting knife is one of her mementos so I'm making leaps there.

[AuraTwilight]

The difficulty in Shattered Memories is that there are two timelines that, by the end, seem like they were set up to run simultaneously. And while, as I've suggested, there could have been breaks that we're not shown with Kaufmann and Cheryl, there seems to be nothing to suggest that time is being messed about for either of them by any Otherworld.

It's very clear that everything is taking place in one session in the real world.

And, while time has been messed about for people in Silent Hill, I've seen nothing to suggest that, when they're conscious, what is happening is happening at any other speed than in real time except in one key part - the bad ending of SH1 where we see Harry in the car crash. That entire game could have happened in a split second.

Which could be exactly how it works in Shattered Memories until you propose that Harry is making phone calls to real people. That puts those phone calls as taking place in real time. And, again to me, that locks Harry to a time line as long as we see him up and about.

Well, that and Homecoming takes several more hours to complete than it should in reality, and Silent Hill 2 involves things from the past meshing with the present. It's not like the scenario of Harry experiencing events in a faster-sliding time scale is without precedent.

You're right again with Maria. That's kind of my point with Harry and Kaufmann though. Kaufmann doesn't see Harry just as people didn't see Maria. That makes sense to me. But then why would some real world bridge worker be able to hear him? Or, as some have proposed in another thread, the real world Stewarts? It's not that it couldn't happen within the world of Silent Hill - it could (like in Born From A Wish I guess) - but for it to be people of such little consequence while most people are imaginary or manifestations would seem to serve little purpose.

Ernest and Amy Baldwin would like a word with you. They were of "little consequence" but they could speak with Maria fine.

[Yuki]

All the other connections in the echo messages are literal, though; there's no reason for everything to be literal then suddenly we have a random metaphor.

The way I saw Harry... Cheryl didn't know what the hell was happening. She imagined her father searching for her, but she wasn't specifically imagining Raw Shocks chasing him and the specific events that happen. The phone calls Harry makes could simply be another element in his trying to find her; HARRY was the one who made them in the game, not Cheryl. The Jimmy Capra and Dahlia conversations do not change, from what I've seen.

The Stewarts may or may not be real. I'm not sold on the "They're not real because their appearances change every playthrough" simply because each playthrough represents a different first therapy session of Cheryl's, but what bugs me is one of the variations has Lucy Stewart speak to Harry with her hands on her knees, as if he's a child. However, that's the only thing that may lead to them not being real.

@Aura, keep in mind, though... I'm fairly sure Amy and Ernest were already dead.

[AuraTwilight]

The Jimmy Capra and Dahlia conversations do not change, from what I've seen.

Well, sometimes Jimmy mentions kids of his.

The Stewarts may or may not be real. I'm not sold on the "They're not real because their appearances change every playthrough" simply because each playthrough represents a different first therapy session of Cheryl's, but what bugs me is one of the variations has Lucy Stewart speak to Harry with her hands on her knees, as if he's a child. However, that's the only thing that may lead to them not being real.

Their occupations and personalities also change, and though I've got no confirmation, someone once mentioned that the name of their daughter might change.

@Aura, keep in mind, though... I'm fairly sure Amy and Ernest were already dead.

Yea, so? They, like the phone calls, are people Harry/Maria can speak with only in voice, and never see face to face.

Could be the key.

[Dogg Thang]

Being dead makes a massive difference. If you're speculating that Harry is making calls to real live people, that's a crossover into a real physical world.

And, while Silent Hill 2 does mesh past with present, it does so for one man. What it doesn't have, which Shattered Memories does, is two timelines running simultaneously. Homecoming might well - that's the one game I skipped.

If you're unwilling to theorise that the session presented has any breaks (and, personally, I agree with you), then that brings it right back to the problem of old Dahlia saying she'll go and get Cheryl when Cheryl is at the lighthouse.

No matter what way it works, it requires too many leaps and has too many complications if Harry is making phone calls to real people. And, in a game whose central theme seems to be 'wake up, stop living in fantasy and accept the obvious', those leaps just don't fit with the resolution of the game for me.

[AuraTwilight]

Being dead makes a massive difference. If you're speculating that Harry is making calls to real live people, that's a crossover into a real physical world.

Yea, I know, that was my speculation. However, the difference is that, just like the Baldwins don't live in the same reality as Maria, the people Harry phones don't exist in the reality he does. There's always an existential wall there that allows him and Maria to communicate with people without proving their existence with a physical appearance.

And, while Silent Hill 2 does mesh past with present, it does so for one man. What it doesn't have, which Shattered Memories does, is two timelines running simultaneously. Homecoming might well - that's the one game I skipped.

Well, all the characters in Silent Hill 2 seems to be experiencing borked time. And why does this two timelines thing matter so much? They're two different realities, it's inconsequential.

If you're unwilling to theorise that the session presented has any breaks (and, personally, I agree with you), then that brings it right back to the problem of old Dahlia saying she'll go and get Cheryl when Cheryl is at the lighthouse.

Again, she goes to get Cheryl ANYWAY, so I don't see the problem.

No matter what way it works, it requires too many leaps and has too many complications if Harry is making phone calls to real people. And, in a game whose central theme seems to be 'wake up, stop living in fantasy and accept the obvious', those leaps just don't fit with the resolution of the game for me.

I don't see any big leaps that need to be made; infact, quite the opposite, since some elements can't be explained by all of this being Cheryl's imagination, imo.

Besides, the central theme could be better worded as "Live for yourself, in the present and for the future."