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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: John and Michelle-Beware Of Spoilers

Missing since: 05 Jun 2009
Notes left: 293
Last seen at: East Coast of Scotland
I've scoured the forum and can't find anything on this.

Did anyone see a connection between Harry and John, and Michelle and Cheryl?

Michelle created a fantasy of John, remembered how he used to be and blocked out anything she didn't wish to hear. John realises this before Michelle, and tries to bring her to the truth. He reflects whatever traits Harry has (caring/commited etc, or more self-centred). He even bears a small resemblance to Harry.

Did anyone else think they were just forwarning the ending?

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Last edited by DirtyNorris on 29 Jan 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2195
Last seen at: Koholint island
Yeah, after a couple of playthroughs, I started to figure that John and Michelle were just a representation of Cheryl's undying love for her father. What made this more interesting to me was when I had a version of Michelle tell me that she "likes guys who look like her dad", or something.

Edit: Shouldn't this be in the spoilers section though? No?

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 05 Jun 2009
Notes left: 293
Last seen at: East Coast of Scotland
Oh damn, I thought this was the spoilers section. Could a mod maybe move it? Sorry :oops:

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 29 May 2009
Notes left: 223
Last seen at: Colombia
This is still on the off-spoilers section...

Even though, John and Michelle's relationship is not always the same. Sometimes is Michelle the one who dumps him, because John is the one who is jelous (if I remember correctly, you should get this going for the S&S ending).

For me is just Cheryl view of their parent's relationship, not her relationship with her father.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11304
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
It's definitely about Harry and Cheryl. Michelle clearly embodies Cheryl's attachment to an idealized past, and John represents Harry.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 29 May 2009
Notes left: 223
Last seen at: Colombia
AuraTwilight wrote:
It's definitely about Harry and Cheryl. Michelle clearly embodies Cheryl's attachment to an idealized past, and John represents Harry.

But then I don't understand why in the other scenario is Michelle the one who is tired of John.

Remember that just happens after you make the couples test. I just got that this relationship represent what Cheryl thinks about relationships in general: that they all fragile and are destined to end in any way.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2195
Last seen at: Koholint island
Escapist wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
It's definitely about Harry and Cheryl. Michelle clearly embodies Cheryl's attachment to an idealized past, and John represents Harry.

But then I don't understand why in the other scenario is Michelle the one who is tired of John.

Remember that just happens after you make the couples test. I just got that this relationship represent what Cheryl thinks about relationships in general: that they all fragile and are destined to end in any way.


I had that happen in my playthrough just earlier tonight; Michelle was the one to end it. Given that, I think that you might be right in thinking it merely represents Cheryl's idea about relationships in general.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Jul 2009
Notes left: 3531
AuraTwilight wrote:
It's definitely about Harry and Cheryl. Michelle clearly embodies Cheryl's attachment to an idealized past, and John represents Harry.


I always thought it symbolized the ending of a relationship, in this case, Harry and Dahlia's.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11304
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
But then I don't understand why in the other scenario is Michelle the one who is tired of John.

Remember that just happens after you make the couples test. I just got that this relationship represent what Cheryl thinks about relationships in general: that they all fragile and are destined to end in any way.


Probably for the same reason Cheryl accuses Harry of basically being a bad father and Harry asking her to forget him.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 05 Nov 2003
Notes left: 128
They don't always go together though. I think it's simply a mix of both - there is much of Cheryl and Harry in John and Michelle but how it plays out is affected by how Cheryl views relationships generally.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11304
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
They don't have to always go together. I can get the costume that hints towards Harry being a leather jacketed sleazeball, then get the Love Lost ending.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 09 May 2008
Notes left: 507
Awkward to imagine that Cheryl puts herself into Michelle's persona if youre going to end up getting the sleaze and Sirens ending. There's something very Freudian about this conversation. lol

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11304
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Pfft, nothing new. Cheryl's already using Young Dahlia as an avatar for herself, and she probably does it with Lisa as well, who also likes to sleep with men who are like her father. All three girls are avatars for her.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 09 May 2008
Notes left: 507
Boom, AuraTwilight, you finished my thought. I wanted to come back and mention Lisa, but you wrapped it up quite nicely. Thanks.

The other hing I wanted to say is... Wow thank you writers for this game to make it so that we can have many different changes, but each make sense individually. I was focusing on each ending and how he emotions between Cheryl and her late father could translate into the game, and each circumsance can shed a whole lot of light on he characters themselves, Michelle and John being just a fracture of it. It works on so many levels.

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I don't make a signature.
Except for the part of the signature explaining that I don't.
And that.
And that.
And that.
...
...and that.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 19 Jan 2005
Notes left: 217
Last seen at: BEHIND YOU!
When I saw characters like Michelle, Lisa or Cybil, I thought they were perhaps people also moving through Silent Hill in other people's memories or visa versa.... except for one of the endings. Perhaps Michelle is looking for John like Harry is looking for Cheryl. All I know is that its interesting to think about who in the game is really in Silent Hill interacting with the Memory of Harry as a real person, and who is a memory themselves.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 22 Dec 2006
Notes left: 295
Last seen at: Leeds, UK
I apologise to be posting in quite an old topic, but no one seemed to mention two things that back up Michelle representing Cheryls views Harry and Dahlias relationship.

The first is that when you first meet Michelle she sings 'Always On My Mind' to you, which is obviously a reference to Cheryl, and then when the car crashes into the water and you're with Dahlia, the radio plays 'Always on My Mind'.

The second is that at one point Michelle actually turns into Dahlia in Michelles house I think? and then Dahlia (I think) turns into Michelle in Dahlias house... Though I don't quite rememeber.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11304
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
The first is that when you first meet Michelle she sings 'Always On My Mind' to you, which is obviously a reference to Cheryl, and then when the car crashes into the water and you're with Dahlia, the radio plays 'Always on My Mind'.


Yea, so? It's the themesong of the game, and it's about how Harry is always on Cheryl's mind.

Quote:
The second is that at one point Michelle actually turns into Dahlia in Michelles house I think? and then Dahlia (I think) turns into Michelle in Dahlias house... Though I don't quite rememeber.


What are you talking about?

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 22 Dec 2006
Notes left: 295
Last seen at: Leeds, UK
AuraTwilight wrote:
Yea, so? It's the themesong of the game, and it's about how Harry is always on Cheryl's mind.


Yeah but the song is only present on those two occasions, which in my opinion shows a clear link between the two characters in Cheryls mind. Otherwise there would be no real reason for Michelle to sing the song at all, the song playing in the car is surely there to make you think of Michelle, even though it is Dahlia who is in the car with you.

AuraTwilight wrote:
Quote:
The second is that at one point Michelle actually turns into Dahlia in Michelles house I think? and then Dahlia (I think) turns into Michelle in Dahlias house... Though I don't quite rememeber.


What are you talking about?


When you go to Michelles keys for her car and come back she is gone and Dahlia is in her place. The same happens later on where Dahlia is gone and Michelle is present.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 23 Mar 2009
Notes left: 28
I personally believe that Michelle and John mirror the relationship between Harry and Dahlia.

John is harry, Michelle is Dahlia. That is why when you get out of the bathroom you see Dahlia instead of Michelle. They're "one and the same".

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11304
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Yeah but the song is only present on those two occasions, which in my opinion shows a clear link between the two characters in Cheryls mind. Otherwise there would be no real reason for Michelle to sing the song at all, the song playing in the car is surely there to make you think of Michelle, even though it is Dahlia who is in the car with you.


The song is about Cheryl's psyche, though, so if anything it only affirms that both Michelle and Dahlia are "avatars" of Cheryl.

Quote:
When you go to Michelles keys for her car and come back she is gone and Dahlia is in her place. The same happens later on where Dahlia is gone and Michelle is present.


Fair enough, though see above. I'm sure we could say the same of Lisa if she had a more prominent role.

Can we agree that Michelle and Dahlia are both extensions of Cheryl along with being Dahlia divided into her idealized and demonized aspects?

Quote:
I personally believe that Michelle and John mirror the relationship between Harry and Dahlia.


But it doesn't. Dahlia didn't idealize Harry in her head, and she didn't love a Harry who wasn't there. She spent all of Cheryl's life criticizing Harry, cutting him down, bemoaning his flaws, and ultimately breaking up with him. This is nothing like how Michelle's been lovey-dovey over John, talking about how great he is and making him up to be this idea that he wasn't in actuality. This reflects CHERYL, and Cheryl only.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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