(Spoilers) The ending and why I don't think they're related
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(Spoilers) The ending and why I don't think they're related
A lot of people on this forum seem to think that all the ending could be related to each other.
But I'm not so sure. I mean let's be honest.
If all the endings related and showed differents parts of Harry's life before he died it wouldn't make sense.
Because it would mean that Harry was a drunkard who got beat by his wife regularly and was pretty submissive , yet he was a complete horndog who could get multiple women in his bed and STILL be a decent acting dad when it came to the day where he divorced Dahlia and left home.
It would make no sense o_0
I mean , violence victims are so diminished and feel so terrible that I can't imagine weak-harry would go around sexing up ladies on the side.
And I somehow can,t imagine an alcoholic being level-headed and telling his daughter that he loves her and look normal and decent.
But I'm not so sure. I mean let's be honest.
If all the endings related and showed differents parts of Harry's life before he died it wouldn't make sense.
Because it would mean that Harry was a drunkard who got beat by his wife regularly and was pretty submissive , yet he was a complete horndog who could get multiple women in his bed and STILL be a decent acting dad when it came to the day where he divorced Dahlia and left home.
It would make no sense o_0
I mean , violence victims are so diminished and feel so terrible that I can't imagine weak-harry would go around sexing up ladies on the side.
And I somehow can,t imagine an alcoholic being level-headed and telling his daughter that he loves her and look normal and decent.
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by going to the mall for hair bleach !!
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- paladin181
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While it's unlikely, it's not impossible. Stop thinking in such general, sweeping terms. An abusive person is more often loving and kind to those (s)he abuses (to make up in his/her mind for the guilt of being abusive, be it physically or emotionally/mentally). If Harry was abused by Dahlia, and made to be submissive, it makes perfect sense that he would want to masculinate himself by being a REAL man behind Dahlia's back and running around with Michelle and Lisa. It also makes sense that being with them is his escape from his horrible life with Dahlia, which alcohol has failed to cure for him.
So being abused led to alcoholism which failed him as an escape, so he turned to cheating as much as he could, running from Dahlia instead of confronting her.
In turn, Alcoholics aren't necessarily drunk 24/7. They are often level-headed productive members of society for LONG periods before anyone ever has a clue they're drunkards. Why is it so hard to fathom that Harry, in a lucid moment, could be kind and loving to his wife and daughter, specifically if it was an act meant to bolster her morale in the face of a parent leaving?
I'm not stating any of this as fact or stating that I believe the endings are related directly; they don't seem to be for me either. But I am arguing against it being outside the realm of possibility, because it simply is possible.
So being abused led to alcoholism which failed him as an escape, so he turned to cheating as much as he could, running from Dahlia instead of confronting her.
In turn, Alcoholics aren't necessarily drunk 24/7. They are often level-headed productive members of society for LONG periods before anyone ever has a clue they're drunkards. Why is it so hard to fathom that Harry, in a lucid moment, could be kind and loving to his wife and daughter, specifically if it was an act meant to bolster her morale in the face of a parent leaving?
I'm not stating any of this as fact or stating that I believe the endings are related directly; they don't seem to be for me either. But I am arguing against it being outside the realm of possibility, because it simply is possible.
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- Just Passing Through
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Personally, I agree with you. As Paladin181 says, it's certainly not impossible that they are all true, happening at different stages, but it does seem unlikely to me. It's the complete contrast between the Love Lost and Wicked and Weak endings that really doesn't seem to fit for me.
Initially, when I considered this, I thought it weakened the ending but, now, I don't think it does. Cheryl has different views of Harry that affect what happens in the game and it actually makes sense to me that, while her view of Harry isn't accurate anyway, the most likely explanation of the differences in how she perceived Harry is that he was simply different.
Initially, when I considered this, I thought it weakened the ending but, now, I don't think it does. Cheryl has different views of Harry that affect what happens in the game and it actually makes sense to me that, while her view of Harry isn't accurate anyway, the most likely explanation of the differences in how she perceived Harry is that he was simply different.
- AuraTwilight
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You're totally stereotyping, and making the same mistake Cheryl is. None of what you said is some sort of rule that drunks/abuse victims/perverts have to follow, and it is indeed true that they blend over.Because it would mean that Harry was a drunkard who got beat by his wife regularly and was pretty submissive , yet he was a complete horndog who could get multiple women in his bed and STILL be a decent acting dad when it came to the day where he divorced Dahlia and left home.
It would make no sense o_0
I mean , violence victims are so diminished and feel so terrible that I can't imagine weak-harry would go around sexing up ladies on the side.
And I somehow can,t imagine an alcoholic being level-headed and telling his daughter that he loves her and look normal and decent.
Allow me to provide a possible scenario. Please keep in mind that this isn't necessarily a definite order:
Harry is stressed out due to stagnation in his writing career, causing him to turn to alcohol because he's worrying about his job, and how he'll provide for his family, and whatnot.
It gets so out of hand that Dahlia loses control of her anger with him, and slaps him around with the intent of putting some sense into him, but her own frustration makes her turn a bit nasty.
Because of that, (or perhaps before that and for the same reason as the drinking), Harry makes atleast one sex tape. It's implied he recorded it over the Mason wedding video, and that and the dedication makes it clear he wanted Dahlia to find it, and that this might not be some habit. This would be the only time Harry cheats on Dahlia, and not a large trend. Perhaps he felt she deserved it for being such a bitch, and he's acting like a big child and lashing out.
When she does find out, they fight a bit more, but when they realize that both of them are just lashing out at each other over and over with the root of the problem being something neither of them have control over, they calm down and make amends, and their good feelings are atleast salvaged to be amiable, but their marriage is already ruined, so they have a mutual, ultimately friendly divorce.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
- AuraTwilight
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Right, thus my annotation in parentheses. I'm not entirely decided if the sleaze or the booze came first, but it can go either way, for me.
However, since she never mentions it during her physical abuse and her yelling, I'd like to think it came afterwards; what kind of wife finds out his husband was having sex with other girls and recorded it over their wedding video, then complains that he's a shitty writer?
However, since she never mentions it during her physical abuse and her yelling, I'd like to think it came afterwards; what kind of wife finds out his husband was having sex with other girls and recorded it over their wedding video, then complains that he's a shitty writer?
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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- nur_ein_tier
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I agree with this, pretty much. I prefer to think of the endings as separate, just as the endings are separate in any other SH game. While I think the videotapes represent the reality and the last scenes show how Cheryl is feeling about things, I like to think of them separately.
It's not so much that it's impossible to conceive of a guy who is an alcoholic and mean sometimes also being a nice guy sometimes and also getting beat up by his wife; for me, it's more that I believe whatever you see at the end of a gameplay is the reality that relates to that gameplay, and that that is a complete picture of what's going on in that instance and doesn't need reference to other endings/videos.
Same for the abusive wife part. Even people who are abusive are capable of having "friendly" moments.
It's not so much that it's impossible to conceive of a guy who is an alcoholic and mean sometimes also being a nice guy sometimes and also getting beat up by his wife; for me, it's more that I believe whatever you see at the end of a gameplay is the reality that relates to that gameplay, and that that is a complete picture of what's going on in that instance and doesn't need reference to other endings/videos.
I'm just going to assume, from this statement, that you probably don't know any alcoholics. Plenty of alcoholics are capable of behaving decently and being nice to people. Not all alcoholics are mean all the time, or dress poorly, or don't tell their children they love them.And I somehow can,t imagine an alcoholic being level-headed and telling his daughter that he loves her and look normal and decent.
Same for the abusive wife part. Even people who are abusive are capable of having "friendly" moments.
- AuraTwilight
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Well, the video tapes are supposed to be the absolute truth, and since only things Cheryl invented seem to change with her psychosis, people found it counterintuitive for the videotapes to be subject to this too, so a running theory is that "all endings are technically true, but Cheryl only saw one of them, and so it skewed her perspective."What you say is right - they certainly could work together. But is there something that connects them solidly? Many are taking it as a given that they are all true so I missed the working out process of that and my browsing hasn't yet found the right thread.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
The video tapes are absolute truth, yes, but you only see one ending on the videotape in any single run through the game. In that one round through the game, there's nothing to suggest that any other variation of that videotape exists anywhere. And there's nothing that suggests multiple rounds of the game can or should be connected plot-wise.AuraTwilight wrote:Well, the video tapes are supposed to be the absolute truth, and since only things Cheryl invented seem to change with her psychosis, people found it counterintuitive for the videotapes to be subject to this too, so a running theory is that "all endings are technically true, but Cheryl only saw one of them, and so it skewed her perspective."What you say is right - they certainly could work together. But is there something that connects them solidly? Many are taking it as a given that they are all true so I missed the working out process of that and my browsing hasn't yet found the right thread.
In fact, that just creates plot issues. For instance, in the tunnel of Love on my first play, Harry and Dahlia were flirting and getting touchy-feely when the ride stopped; on my third playthrough, they were bickering when the ride stopped.
If you try to hypothesize that each round of the game you play through is Cheryl going back to therapy with Kaufmann and confronting different parts of her past that she didn't want to confront all at once in the first visit, this simply doesn't make sense. They can't have been having two completely different and conflicting conversations when the same event (the ride stopping) occurred.
(And, please, no one use Kaufmann's computer telling you to "come back to therapy" as a basis for hypothesizing that multiple rounds of the game should be connected. This was clearly just Climax telling you to play the game again now that you know what's going on.)
To me it seems a lot more likely that the way we play the game determines the man the real Harry was in the game's back story for that specific round through the game, and we're served the only piece of objective truth about Harry--the videotape--at the end to coincide with how we determined he was.
- paladin181
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By the same token, each playthrough only explores what Cheryl explores. I think of it this way. Using your tunnel of love example: It never happened at all the way Cheryl remembers. Her recollections are pretty much all symbolic of how she's perceiving Harry at a given moment, rather than memories of actual events. The way I understood it, from Dr. K's dialogue, she's just making it all up as she goes along, so to speak. She never truly knew the kind of man Harry was before he died, and she never will fully understand him. So this adventure (that also never seemed to happen) is a series of events that is coloring her perspective of him, and lending ideas to small truths about Harry, rather than solid events that shape his personality.
Does that make sense or is my lack of sleep rendering me almost completely incapable of communicating rational thought?
Does that make sense or is my lack of sleep rendering me almost completely incapable of communicating rational thought?
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- AuraTwilight
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It still makes the "truth" a Schroedinger's Box that's controlled by Cheryl's psychological profiling, so the problem is still there.The video tapes are absolute truth, yes, but you only see one ending on the videotape in any single run through the game. In that one round through the game, there's nothing to suggest that any other variation of that videotape exists anywhere. And there's nothing that suggests multiple rounds of the game can or should be connected plot-wise.
Echo Messages are no Video Tapes.In fact, that just creates plot issues. For instance, in the tunnel of Love on my first play, Harry and Dahlia were flirting and getting touchy-feely when the ride stopped; on my third playthrough, they were bickering when the ride stopped.
No one's hypothesizing any such thing.If you try to hypothesize that each round of the game you play through is Cheryl going back to therapy with Kaufmann and confronting different parts of her past that she didn't want to confront all at once in the first visit, this simply doesn't make sense. They can't have been having two completely different and conflicting conversations when the same event (the ride stopping) occurred.
Not that I personally do, but come on, you can't say this, it's special pleading. Otherwise we can disregard every puzzle, every message that exists to give gameplay hints, and every psychological factor that ties into the player.(And, please, no one use Kaufmann's computer telling you to "come back to therapy" as a basis for hypothesizing that multiple rounds of the game should be connected. This was clearly just Climax telling you to play the game again now that you know what's going on.)
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
I'm not quite sure I understand your point here, if you don't mind explaining.AuraTwilight wrote:It still makes the "truth" a Schroedinger's Box that's controlled by Cheryl's psychological profiling, so the problem is still there.The video tapes are absolute truth, yes, but you only see one ending on the videotape in any single run through the game. In that one round through the game, there's nothing to suggest that any other variation of that videotape exists anywhere. And there's nothing that suggests multiple rounds of the game can or should be connected plot-wise.
But it still doesn't make any narrative sense for such wildly different scenes to somehow be consolidated.Echo Messages are no Video Tapes.In fact, that just creates plot issues. For instance, in the tunnel of Love on my first play, Harry and Dahlia were flirting and getting touchy-feely when the ride stopped; on my third playthrough, they were bickering when the ride stopped.
[/quote]No one's hypothesizing any such thing.If you try to hypothesize that each round of the game you play through is Cheryl going back to therapy with Kaufmann and confronting different parts of her past that she didn't want to confront all at once in the first visit, this simply doesn't make sense. They can't have been having two completely different and conflicting conversations when the same event (the ride stopping) occurred.
Not that I personally do, but come on, you can't say this, it's special pleading. Otherwise we can disregard every puzzle, every message that exists to give gameplay hints, and every psychological factor that ties into the player.(And, please, no one use Kaufmann's computer telling you to "come back to therapy" as a basis for hypothesizing that multiple rounds of the game should be connected. This was clearly just Climax telling you to play the game again now that you know what's going on.)
Well, to be 100% fair, you're right, neither of these points have come up in this specific thread--but I've seen them in the forum and just wanted to address them before they came up.
And yeah, I'll admit this was special pleading, but I fail to see how the sentence asking the player to replay the game is at all similar to the in-game puzzles, puzzle hints, and other psychological factors.
I see that message as a subtle breaking of the fourth-wall; the developers inviting you to play the video game again to see what changes. Its really not at all the same as the puzzles, hints and psyche profile at all, considering those are securely embedded within the narrative's four walls.
You're making sense, I just disagree on certain points. She never knew him as a person, yes, but I do think she still has these memories of her time together with him, I don't think she's making them all up. Yeah, I think they've been warped and twisted by her own fallible memory and her unrealistic perceptions of her father, but I think they still, on some level, hold semblance of the truth.By the same token, each playthrough only explores what Cheryl explores. I think of it this way. Using your tunnel of love example: It never happened at all the way Cheryl remembers. Her recollections are pretty much all symbolic of how she's perceiving Harry at a given moment, rather than memories of actual events. The way I understood it, from Dr. K's dialogue, she's just making it all up as she goes along, so to speak. She never truly knew the kind of man Harry was before he died, and she never will fully understand him. So this adventure (that also never seemed to happen) is a series of events that is coloring her perspective of him, and lending ideas to small truths about Harry, rather than solid events that shape his personality.
Does that make sense or is my lack of sleep rendering me almost completely incapable of communicating rational thought?
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- Just Passing Through
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Just as an addition to this, something occurred to me. The Sleaze ending seems to give Cheryl the only info she has on Michelle and Lisa - prom queen and nurse. While it's possible she could have met them in real life and she may know Lisa is a nurse from the hospital, the tape does seem to be the source of who they became in her mind. We're given no clue that Michelle played any role in her life. It would seem likely (though not certain) that's actually the only place she has seen her.
If that is the case, that would say that not only does that video exist across all endings but Cheryl has seen it in regardless of the ending.
If that is the case, that would say that not only does that video exist across all endings but Cheryl has seen it in regardless of the ending.
^This has come up in a few other threads, and this is actually the reason I discount the Sleaze and Sirens ending on a lot of levels.
It seems a lot more likely to me that Cheryl went to high school with a girl named Michelle Valdez--Michelle says it herself, for one, and while that's not 100% reliable by any means, it seems a lot more likely to me.
It seems a lot more likely to me that Cheryl went to high school with a girl named Michelle Valdez--Michelle says it herself, for one, and while that's not 100% reliable by any means, it seems a lot more likely to me.
- AuraTwilight
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Why is it more likely? Aside from Michelle's word, which is entirely constructed, she gives zero indication that she's actually Cheryl's underclassman. She has this role only so that she can give exposition on Cheryl without being suspicious.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
- paladin181
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Which is a huge problem with this game as opposed to the others. In the other games there was always a bit of fact to wrap the warped sense of the world around. Dates from memos and newspaper clippings and diary entries that we accept are really there. Events that we accept are really happening.
In this one, EVERY element of the plot that happens through gameplay as Harry is completely unreliable to the point of being a non-factor in ANY truth that we can really discern, which is little. The point is that the entirety of the game is invalidated by the fact that we are dealing with a fabricated story only designed to help Cheryl cope with the death of her father, and that doesn't sit well with me because that makes most of the theorizing a moot point. Especially when most theories can be refuted with the time old (and for once true) statement "It's Silent Hill. You can't trust anything you see in the game lol."
In this one, EVERY element of the plot that happens through gameplay as Harry is completely unreliable to the point of being a non-factor in ANY truth that we can really discern, which is little. The point is that the entirety of the game is invalidated by the fact that we are dealing with a fabricated story only designed to help Cheryl cope with the death of her father, and that doesn't sit well with me because that makes most of the theorizing a moot point. Especially when most theories can be refuted with the time old (and for once true) statement "It's Silent Hill. You can't trust anything you see in the game lol."
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If the game is set in Cheryl's mind, it makes sense for these constructs to be based off of people Cheryl knew at one point in time. Even though everything they say is indeed suspect, these figments seem to have all originated from Cheryl's life--the real life Cybil was probably a cop, the real life Stewarts probably moved into the Mason's home, the real life Lisa was probably a nurse, the real life Dahlia was really Cheryl's mom.AuraTwilight wrote:Why is it more likely? Aside from Michelle's word, which is entirely constructed, she gives zero indication that she's actually Cheryl's underclassman. She has this role only so that she can give exposition on Cheryl without being suspicious.
So it makes more narrative sense to me that the real life Michelle was probably a classmate of Cheryl's. I think its further supported by the fact that we find her in a school, and Cheryl's mind would naturally associate a classmate with the school she went to.
Furthermore, Michelle claims to be Cheryl's classmate 100% of the time, no matter how you play the game. The Sleaze and Sirens ending doesn't always happen. Therefore, if we're going to compare the trustworthiness of the two, I'm going to put more stock in Michelle's claim that she went to school with Cheryl.
In any case, I said it "seems more likely to me." Keep in mind that I discount the notion that all four tapes are always 100% canon, and what's more I completely discount the S&S ending. So naturally this thing that seems likely to me won't seem likely to you.
- cascade88
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I don't think that the Stewarts are real for a couple of reasons. For one, their occupations can change depending on how the game is reading you, and for another, I figured they were symbolic of the still-together, alive and well family that Cheryl would have (obviously) rather had.
I think that other things factor into how they react, as well. For instance, in one playthrough they blamed their daughter for Harry's mix-up, and ages later in the amusement park ride scene, Harry is quite angry with Cheryl for screwing up the ride. It just makes more sense to me if they aren't actually real.
I think that other things factor into how they react, as well. For instance, in one playthrough they blamed their daughter for Harry's mix-up, and ages later in the amusement park ride scene, Harry is quite angry with Cheryl for screwing up the ride. It just makes more sense to me if they aren't actually real.
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