"Abnormal Sexuality."

[FiliusMartis]

Not to mention that the whore house echo does not always mention a daughter. Sometimes he berates the woman for posing as a school girl when she's really old enough to be his wife.

[Avianna]

Not really. I've gotten every ending except the alcohol one, and none of the echoes have become more plentiful or seemingly significant.

What I am trying to say is that dialogue changes in the game as you play through it depending on what ending you are heading towards. Ie, Michelle either breaks up with John or John breaks up with her, stuff like that. And depending on the convos you have in the game some echos can take on different meanings.

For example, when I heard the Pigtails msgs the first time, I really thought that perhaps the pigtails reminded him of his daughter and the fact that his relationship with his wife was falling apart because from what I had read and talked with characters so far in the game about it seemed like the girl he was talking to in the car about the pigtails before school was young Cheryl. But the next time I played through it I played for the lusty ending, and it seemed to me like perhaps Cheryl was being reminded of when her father said those things to her as a child, while she is trying to sell herself in the whore house.

I don't think Climax is trying to prank us here, I think they are trying to make certain situations vague so that they can be interrupted differently as different stories progress. Which, if you read alot of Choose Your Own Adventure books, happens quite often.

[LoneWolf616]

I disagree with Stranded; I believe it was Cheryl that went to the forest for a party and got drugged. Remind me of what the others were, please?

I thought it was Cheryl in the woods too.

In three of the four different variations of "Stranded", the girl says her name is Jackie when she is calling her mom:

"Mom? Mom, it's me Jackie. I'm scared. I'm at a party in the woods, but I don't like it. The guys... I don't know. I don't like the way they're talking. You've got to come find me."

"Mom, it's Jackie. Look, I'm sorry about earlier. You were right. I'm at the party. I don't feel good. I don't know anyone and I'm nervous. Can you come get me?"

"Mom? It's Jackie. I've been stupid. I've come on to the woods for a party, but I wanna come home. I'm lost. I don't know where I am. I'm outside the ranger station. I don't like the crowd here. I wanna come home."

Also, in at least one variation, it appears that Jackie dies. We see a photo of her lying face down in the snow:


This message accompanies the picture:
"We thought it would be fun to spike the new girl's drink. Didn't know it would end up like this. We thought she was still swimming, but... she wasn't moving."

Babes in the Woods is about two kids, Cycle of Death is a boy and his father, Choking Game is two boys named Rick and Todd, Prom involves a girl named Caitlin, Big Bear is a message to a girl named Mandy, The Experience is a guy working in the mall, and Celebration Time is a guy working in the mall card store. Pigtails is the most ambiguous echo as far as whether or not it's Cheryl in the message/photo.

[LoneWolf616]

First of all, the hooker in the "pigtails" echo photo is not the same girl being talked to by her father in the "pigtails" echo message. The voicemail that is triggered by approaching the car outside is of a father talking to his daughter about her pigtails hairstyle. We don't hear the daughter talk. It's the father who is of importance in this message, not the daughter. The voicemail that is triggered by taking a photo of the woman in the whore house is of that same father talking to a hooker. He hits her when he first sees her in the pigtails wig because she reminds him of her daughter. So in the parking lot echo message, it's a guy and his daughter. In the club echo message, it's the same guy with a hooker. The hooker is NOT his daughter, though it may be Cheryl. I have my doubts though.

Nice completely baseless speculation there.

I really doubt the car echo is supposed to be the guy's daughter; for one thing, he's dropping her off at a high school and he's being ridiculously childish and patronizing, sounding very much like fetish play. Secondly, there's the issue of why this would be important enough to Cheryl to remember, or even actually hear somehow (was she in the car?)

The whole point of speculation is that you're guessing, theorizing. Of course it's baseless, that's why it's speculation and not fact! If you're suggesting that the girl he's talking to in the car is in fact the hooker and they are just role-playing, that is possible, but that doesn't make my idea baseless. I have just as much evidence to support my theory as you do for yours. The evidence is in the echo messages themselves, and I think people are forgetting that all of the messages have different variations, some radically different from one another. Here are the three versions of the car conversation:

"Look at you. Aren't you just about the most perfect schoolgirl there ever was. With those pigtails, I doubt there's any little girl in the world quite as perfect as you."

Now in that one, it is possible that he's role-playing with the hooker, or he could just be a creepy father who sees his high school aged daughter as still his little girl.

"You all ready for school? Hey, look at me when I'm talking. Daddy's little princess. You look so cute with your pigtails. All the boys in your class must be so distracted. Okay, you can run off now. See you tonight."

"You got all your books? You lunch? Good. How come you changed your hair? The other girls tell you to do your hair like that? I thought you looked great with pigtails. Okay, honey, you have a nice day."

In those two versions above, it sounds again like a father talking to his daughter who he refuses to admit is grown up. As for whether the hooker is Cheryl, I agree that it does look like it could be her in the photo, but in one variation of the message the man says that the hooker is old enough to be his wife. The Pigtails echo really is one of the most ambiguous.

[Avianna]

^^^
@Lone Wolf
See I find this interesting because I don't believe in the two times I've played through the game I've ever heard the name Jackie mentioned and both time I got a face first picture of a girl that looked very similar to Cheryl. (Red under eye, same hair cut, but a bit more shaggy)

[LoneWolf616]

^^^
@Lone Wolf
See I find this interesting because I don't believe in the two times I've played through the game I've ever heard the name Jackie mentioned and both time I got a face first picture of a girl that looked very similar to Cheryl. (Red under eye, same hair cut, but a bit more shaggy)

Yeah, there are four variations of the Stranded message, and in one of them (the one you got) the girl does not say her name. There are also four different pictures to go with them. In two of the pictures you see a close up of the girls face. She is conscious and she does look a bit like Cheryl. In the other two pictures she is face down in the snow and looks dead to me.

I'm not sure if it's against the rules to advertise websites, but I think it will be helpful to others to know that all of my info comes from Silent Hill: Lost Memories. Just go to the Shattered Memories section then the messages section. They have the audio and text of every single echo message in the game, including all the different variations of each. They also have most of the pictures for them.

[pj]

I disagree with Stranded; I believe it was Cheryl that went to the forest for a party and got drugged. Remind me of what the others were, please?

I thought it was Cheryl in the woods too.

In three of the four different variations of "Stranded", the girl says her name is Jackie when she is calling her mom:

"Mom? Mom, it's me Jackie. I'm scared. I'm at a party in the woods, but I don't like it. The guys... I don't know. I don't like the way they're talking. You've got to come find me."

"Mom, it's Jackie. Look, I'm sorry about earlier. You were right. I'm at the party. I don't feel good. I don't know anyone and I'm nervous. Can you come get me?"

"Mom? It's Jackie. I've been stupid. I've come on to the woods for a party, but I wanna come home. I'm lost. I don't know where I am. I'm outside the ranger station. I don't like the crowd here. I wanna come home."

Also, in at least one variation, it appears that Jackie dies. We see a photo of her lying face down in the snow:


This message accompanies the picture:
"We thought it would be fun to spike the new girl's drink. Didn't know it would end up like this. We thought she was still swimming, but... she wasn't moving."

Babes in the Woods is about two kids, Cycle of Death is a boy and his father, Choking Game is two boys named Rick and Todd, Prom involves a girl named Caitlin, Big Bear is a message to a girl named Mandy, The Experience is a guy working in the mall, and Celebration Time is a guy working in the mall card store. Pigtails is the most ambiguous echo as far as whether or not it's Cheryl in the message/photo.

Wolf, the thing that directly contradicts your certainty on the matter is the fact that the other two echo photo variations for "Stranded" reveal that the girl you're calling Jackie--the one who in the variation you quoted from drowns in ice--is actually Cheryl.

Version A: http://www.silenthillmemories.net/sh_sh ... ded_2a.jpg

Version B: http://www.silenthillmemories.net/sh_sh ... ded_2a.jpg

Hell, if you look closely at the version that you yourself referenced, hair style, color and facial structure reveal its Cheryl.

And since we know Cheryl doesn't drown in ice, clearly something is up with these echo messages and photos. Which throws the validity of the "Jacki" name into suspicion.

(I've gone into my opinion on this issue in-depth on a bunch of threads throughout this forum, but to go over it very briefly again I feel like "Jackie" is just Cheryl's subconscious way of covering up her role in the woods drama, since clearly she's quite ashamed of it.)

And even with your brief summaries of the echo photos, there's still no reason why Cheryl couldn't have at least been indirectly involved with the situations or the people involved in the situations.

[Yuki]

And since we know Cheryl doesn't drown in ice, clearly something is up with these echo messages and photos. Which throws the validity of the "Jacki" name into suspicion.

(I've gone into my opinion on this issue in-depth on a bunch of threads throughout this forum, but to go over it very briefly again I feel like "Jackie" is just Cheryl's subconscious way of covering up her role in the woods drama, since clearly she's quite ashamed of it.)

This. The developers could not have had her say "Cheryl" without spoiling the entire storyline.

Babes in the Woods is about two kids, Cycle of Death is a boy and his father, Choking Game is two boys named Rick and Todd, Prom involves a girl named Caitlin, Big Bear is a message to a girl named Mandy, The Experience is a guy working in the mall, and Celebration Time is a guy working in the mall card store. Pigtails is the most ambiguous echo as far as whether or not it's Cheryl in the message/photo.

I would argue, myself, that Babes in the Woods and Cycle of Death are unrelated to Cheryl, but the only things that are. Unfortunately, I can't remember Big Bear, though I want to say it wasn't an echo and simply something that was in the school to help you solve the puzzle.

-Choking Game is quite possibly something that Cheryl witnessed, as is the Prom.
-The Experience seems to me to reflect Cheryl's insecurities; the messages all deal with the amazingness of the mall and how it can enrich life.

I can't quite remember Celebration Time. Is it part of the puzzle that you have to solve, or is it the message you get right before you learn that Cheryl was arrested and stabbed a security guard?

[LuLu]

I think Pigtails is Cheryl.

Why? Because in the Wonderland restaurant you hear the echo with a girl (Cheryl) and her boyfriend sitting at one of the tables. Her boyfriend goes on to ask why she's so frigid when it comes to having sex with him.

Then, when you go to the back kitchen area of the restaurant there is a locker (or a fridge perhaps?), and inside it's frozen. You also find a memento of a naked doll with pigtails in this frigid locker.

So, since you get to the brothel (or whatever it is where you find the Pigtails echo) from the restaurant, this implies to me that Cheryl is indeed Pigtails due to the fact that you find the Pigtails doll in a "frigid" locker in the restaurant.

So to sum it up: Frigid = Cheryl = Pigtails doll in the fridge.

[Shadow Dragon]

Many of the echo messages could simply be stuff that she's heard about. For isntance, I doubt she was involved in Joel Jr.'s first kill or with those two boys that died in the woods. Those type of echo messages, likely got involved simply as a way to add to story of how big of a hero her dad is.

[AuraTwilight]

I think Pigtails is Cheryl.

Why? Because in the Wonderland restaurant you hear the echo with a girl (Cheryl) and her boyfriend sitting at one of the tables. Her boyfriend goes on to ask why she's so frigid when it comes to having sex with him.

Then, when you go to the back kitchen area of the restaurant there is a locker (or a fridge perhaps?), and inside it's frozen. You also find a memento of a naked doll with pigtails in this frigid locker.

So, since you get to the brothel (or whatever it is where you find the Pigtails echo) from the restaurant, this implies to me that Cheryl is indeed Pigtails due to the fact that you find the Pigtails doll in a "frigid" locker in the restaurant.

So to sum it up: Frigid = Cheryl = Pigtails doll in the fridge. :mrgreen:

FATALITY

Flawless Victory.

[LoneWolf616]

I think Pigtails is Cheryl.

Why? Because in the Wonderland restaurant you hear the echo with a girl (Cheryl) and her boyfriend sitting at one of the tables. Her boyfriend goes on to ask why she's so frigid when it comes to having sex with him.

Then, when you go to the back kitchen area of the restaurant there is a locker (or a fridge perhaps?), and inside it's frozen. You also find a memento of a naked doll with pigtails in this frigid locker.

So, since you get to the brothel (or whatever it is where you find the Pigtails echo) from the restaurant, this implies to me that Cheryl is indeed Pigtails due to the fact that you find the Pigtails doll in a "frigid" locker in the restaurant.

So to sum it up: Frigid = Cheryl = Pigtails doll in the fridge.

That's some really good detective work. I'm a bit more convinced now that Pigtails is Cheryl.

Hell, if you look closely at the version that you yourself referenced, hair style, color and facial structure reveal its Cheryl.

Ya know, you are absolutely right. It really does look like Cheryl, especially in the two pictures where she is conscious. I would say then that Jackie probably is Cheryl, at least in the versions where she is conscious in the photos. The other two photos where she is lying in the snow, I don't know, she really looks dead in those pictures.

I can't quite remember Celebration Time. Is it part of the puzzle that you have to solve, or is it the message you get right before you learn that Cheryl was arrested and stabbed a security guard?

Celebration Time is where the guy who works at the mall card store is on the phone with a co-worker who is telling him the code for the door. The only purpose for this echo seems to be to help the player solve the puzzle in the room.

[AuraTwilight]

Ya know, you are absolutely right. It really does look like Cheryl, especially in the two pictures where she is conscious. I would say then that Jackie probably is Cheryl, at least in the versions where she is conscious in the photos. The other two photos where she is lying in the snow, I don't know, she really looks dead in those pictures.

Wait, hold on, where are we getting that Jackie is the girl in the photos?

Celebration Time is where the guy who works at the mall card store is on the phone with a co-worker who is telling him the code for the door. The only purpose for this echo seems to be to help the player solve the puzzle in the room.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that we could disregard anything that exists merely for puzzle information.

[LoneWolf616]

Wait, hold on, where are we getting that Jackie is the girl in the photos?

Well first the player gets an echo message from the phone at the ranger station where a girl (who in three of the four different variations of the message identifies herself as Jackie) is calling her mother to tell her she came out to the woods for a party but is scared and nervous and doesn't like the way the boys are talking. She asks her mother to come get her. Shortly after that the player comes upon the sleeping bag in the woods which triggers the second message where some guy is talking about how the new girl was slipped something in her drink. In one variation it says she is going crazy, tearing her clothes off and crying. In another the guy says "We thought she was still swimming, but... she wasn't moving." In all four of the variations the player gets a picture of Cheryl. So either the girl on the phone named Jackie is indeed a different girl, or, as a previous poster mentioned, the name Jackie might just be Cheryl's subconscious trying to cover up her shameful mistake. Either is plausible.

I thought it was pretty self-evident that we could disregard anything that exists merely for puzzle information.

Someone didn't remember that particular echo message, so I was simply telling them about it and reaffirming that it only exists for the sake of a puzzle.

[Yuki]

Someone didn't remember that particular echo message, so I was simply telling them about it and reaffirming that it only exists for the sake of a puzzle.

That would be me. And I agree, we can disregard it; it exists most likely only for a puzzle. Then again, we can't quiiiite completely disregard all puzzles; we know that the one in the forest has to do with Cheryl.



I want to add a little more credence to my theory about Prom and the Choking Game dealing with stuff Cheryl saw: those come just after the therapy session dealing with high school. Seeing as you play as Cheryl in therapy, and you're speaking of high school times at that point...

[AuraTwilight]

Well first the player gets an echo message from the phone at the ranger station where a girl (who in three of the four different variations of the message identifies herself as Jackie) is calling her mother to tell her she came out to the woods for a party but is scared and nervous and doesn't like the way the boys are talking. She asks her mother to come get her. Shortly after that the player comes upon the sleeping bag in the woods which triggers the second message where some guy is talking about how the new girl was slipped something in her drink. In one variation it says she is going crazy, tearing her clothes off and crying. In another the guy says "We thought she was still swimming, but... she wasn't moving." In all four of the variations the player gets a picture of Cheryl. So either the girl on the phone named Jackie is indeed a different girl, or, as a previous poster mentioned, the name Jackie might just be Cheryl's subconscious trying to cover up her shameful mistake. Either is plausible.

Either way, there's nothing really connecting Jackie to the photos of the drugged/dead girl, so it doesn't matter. If we're going to presume that Jackie is a subconscious false name, then I propose that the image of Cheryl is just Cheryl plastering her face onto a different girl out of teh guiltz0rs.

That would be me. And I agree, we can disregard it; it exists most likely only for a puzzle. Then again, we can't quiiiite completely disregard all puzzles; we know that the one in the forest has to do with Cheryl.

Yea, but it gives more information than just puzzle info, it also gives a memory. That's totally different from, say, "Lol you can open the door now whuspr whispur astronomies."

I want to add a little more credence to my theory about Prom and the Choking Game dealing with stuff Cheryl saw: those come just after the therapy session dealing with high school. Seeing as you play as Cheryl in therapy, and you're speaking of high school times at that point...

Ditto.

[kideatsu]

What I like about SHSM, from the evidence of this thread, is that it has created that sort of mystery and psyched spawnage of theories that the original gave (and to me Silent Hill 2, 3 and 4).

"Abnormal sexuality." Well, it could mean a lot, but I got the vibes that Cheryl's sexuality was abnormal because of the experiences she put her self in with her teacher, with possibly another man (who may also be the teacher) contrasted with her total refusal of engaging in anything very intimate with a boy her own age.

This caused her boyfriend to dump her (possibly at Wonderland Burger) and maybe her arrival or return to older men. I believe maybe the breakup caused her to get with her teacher.

I have seen Dr. K say this "abnormal sexuality" thing with pretty much every ending, but I may be mistaken. So it may be possible that the way the player plays doesn't cause Dr. K to say anything about it or not.

If you play the game, though, it's not too hard to tell there was some very odd sexuality going on in poor Harry's "little girl". The "I love my Daddy" part on the home video--I'm sure it means a lot more than what it appears. It's repeated for various reasons, but that one is hard to miss.