"Abnormal Sexuality."

Ten years after the original game and Harry's still searching for his daughter.

Moderator: Moderators

pj
Cafe5to2 Waitress
Posts: 264
Joined: 02 Dec 2008

Post by pj »

Yuki wrote:
pj wrote:Yeah, its really hard to deny Cheryl's Electra Complex.

However, I do think its important that we make the distinction that having an Electra Complex is, in itself, not abnormal. Electra and Oedipus Complexes are considered normal stages of human development.

What makes Cheryl's Electra Complex abnormal and unhealthy is the fact that it persists into her young adulthood. These complexes are supposed to end fairly early, when the child identifies with and accepts their parent of the same sex.

So it seems (at least to me) that Cheryl's off-kilter Electra Complex is not only the result of her father's absence, but also of her strained relationship with her mother.
Er, I'm not quiiite sure I understand. Isn't an Electra Complex when you desire your parent sexually...?
Yessir. From the Encyclopedia Brittanica:
Encyclopedia Brittanica wrote:In psychoanalytic theory, a desire for sexual involvement with the parent of the opposite sex and a sense of rivalry with the parent of the same sex. The term was introduced by Sigmund Freud in his Interpretation of Dreams (1899) and is derived from the mythological Oedipus, who killed his father and married his mother; its female analogue is the Electra complex. Considered a normal stage in the development of children ages three to five, it ends when the child identifies with the parent of the same sex and represses its sexual instincts. Freud believed that the process of overcoming the Oedipus complex gave rise to the superego.
According to Freud and Jung, having an Oedipus or an Electra Complex is a normal part of growing up; the thing is, you're supposed to get over it pretty young, when you begin to identify with and accept your parent of the same sex.

So I was just saying that this means having an Electra Complex in itself is not fucked up. What's fucked up is that Cheryl still had one at age 25. And since overcoming these complexes involves accepting your parent of the same sex--and Cheryl clearly had trouble accepting Dahlia--it seems to me that Cheryl's relationship with Dahlia is also to blame for her prolonged Electra Complex.

Now that I think about it, this could also shed more light on why Cheryl projects herself as Dahlia. Since overcoming these complexes involves "identifying" with your parent of the same sex, perhaps the way that Cheryl literally assumes Dahlia's identity--and eventually seduces Harry--is symbolic of her finally confronting and overcoming her Electra Complex...albeit 17 years late.
User avatar
Avianna
Cafe5to2 Waitress
Posts: 217
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: BEHIND YOU!
Contact:

Post by Avianna »

Yuki wrote:
Avianna wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:Of course, no one here is actually suggesting that Cheryl and Harry actually did it (though they sort of did vis-a-vis Young!Dahlia).
I don't think that was Cheryl's subcon. trying to sleep with Harry, I think it was her mind trying to keep him from reaching her via projecting a happy relationship with her mother. I think she was hoping that if he got back together with her mother from the past (when she believed them to be happier before her) he would maybe stop his pursuit of the lighthouse.
I disagree. Harry seemed determined no matter what to find Cheryl, and the fact that not only Cheryl pursued older men during her life but having Cybil have daddy issues and Lisa be also into older men seems to scream otherwise, to me.
At the end mulitpule things happen to keep Harry from reaching Cheryl. First the car stops that is taking him there, then she calls him to keep him from coming to her. Michelle tells him he may not find what he wants to find, then Dahlia, then raw shocks and then swimming. I do agree she has a complex for her father, but I think that if she wanted to have sex with him in her subcon, she could have just come to him in her adult form and he wouldn't have known the difference since he only knew her as a child.
Escapist
Cafe5to2 Waitress
Posts: 223
Joined: 29 May 2009
Location: Colombia

Post by Escapist »

Avianna wrote:
Yuki wrote:
Avianna wrote: I don't think that was Cheryl's subcon. trying to sleep with Harry, I think it was her mind trying to keep him from reaching her via projecting a happy relationship with her mother. I think she was hoping that if he got back together with her mother from the past (when she believed them to be happier before her) he would maybe stop his pursuit of the lighthouse.
I disagree. Harry seemed determined no matter what to find Cheryl, and the fact that not only Cheryl pursued older men during her life but having Cybil have daddy issues and Lisa be also into older men seems to scream otherwise, to me.
At the end mulitpule things happen to keep Harry from reaching Cheryl. First the car stops that is taking him there, then she calls him to keep him from coming to her. Michelle tells him he may not find what he wants to find, then Dahlia, then raw shocks and then swimming. I do agree she has a complex for her father, but I think that if she wanted to have sex with him in her subcon, she could have just come to him in her adult form and he wouldn't have known the difference since he only knew her as a child.
I think Cheryl is too fucked up to do something like that.

Also, Cheryl by no ways would like to show herself to her father, as she is embarrased of what she have become.
User avatar
AuraTwilight
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 11390
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
Contact:

Post by AuraTwilight »

Plus, he already saw a photo of her at the high school, so he'd of figured it out.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
User avatar
paladin181
Subway Guard
Posts: 1541
Joined: 15 May 2008
Gender: Male
Location: Right behind you

Post by paladin181 »

I stand by my assessment that she doesn't have an Electra complex. Simply put she wants to be close to her father, to feel his love. she has a strong desire to be loved by her father or older men who are father figures. The sex isn't the goal here, but rather the means to the goal: Harry's affection. She has learned from a young age (apparent by the teacher and her impressions of Dahlia) that getting men to love you is really easy if you bed down with them. It's possible it's the only way she knows how to get affection. Unless I missed something TERRIBLY and my theory is completely impossible.

I don't think I did, and the psychological aspects fit surprisingly well. While still twisted, it seem more likely to me than someone having a strange sexual obsession with her father who died 18 years prior. Of course a retarded sexuality is a possibility too from the stress and inability to cope with the loss.
Image
=====================================================
|.My Avatar is larger than yours because I'm a cult subscriber.|
=====================================================
pj
Cafe5to2 Waitress
Posts: 264
Joined: 02 Dec 2008

Post by pj »

paladin181 wrote:I stand by my assessment that she doesn't have an Electra complex. Simply put she wants to be close to her father, to feel his love. she has a strong desire to be loved by her father or older men who are father figures. The sex isn't the goal here, but rather the means to the goal: Harry's affection. She has learned from a young age (apparent by the teacher and her impressions of Dahlia) that getting men to love you is really easy if you bed down with them. It's possible it's the only way she knows how to get affection. Unless I missed something TERRIBLY and my theory is completely impossible.

I don't think I did, and the psychological aspects fit surprisingly well. While still twisted, it seem more likely to me than someone having a strange sexual obsession with her father who died 18 years prior. Of course a retarded sexuality is a possibility too from the stress and inability to cope with the loss.
The thing is, an Electra complex isn't a "strange sexual obsession." Psychologically speaking, its common, everyday stuff--according to psychoanalysis, every one of us goes throw an Oedipus or Electra Complex even though we don't realize it. So the psychological aspects fit just as well with the Electra Complex theory.

And sex isn't the goal with an Electra complex either.
User avatar
paladin181
Subway Guard
Posts: 1541
Joined: 15 May 2008
Gender: Male
Location: Right behind you

Post by paladin181 »

But it IS a strange sexual obsession when you take into account that it exists beyond the normal boundaries of the Electra Complex. And I'm not discounting it at all. To the contrary, I can see why people see that, and why they believe that it's the case. I just prefer an alternate and equally possible explanation.
Image
=====================================================
|.My Avatar is larger than yours because I'm a cult subscriber.|
=====================================================
pj
Cafe5to2 Waitress
Posts: 264
Joined: 02 Dec 2008

Post by pj »

paladin181 wrote:But it IS a strange sexual obsession when you take into account that it exists beyond the normal boundaries of the Electra Complex. And I'm not discounting it at all. To the contrary, I can see why people see that, and why they believe that it's the case. I just prefer an alternate and equally possible explanation.
Ah, sorry, misunderstood you.

Yes, I agree that, if Cheryl does indeed have an Electra Complex at 25, then it is strange and abnormal (like I said a few posts back). I'm in the camp that thinks she does have one, but I see what you're saying.
User avatar
Avianna
Cafe5to2 Waitress
Posts: 217
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: BEHIND YOU!
Contact:

Post by Avianna »

paladin181 wrote:The sex isn't the goal here, but rather the means to the goal: Harry's affection.
This is how I feel as well. That is why I don't believe that she uses Dahlia's form to have sex with her father. And also why I feel its just another measure to try and get him from coming to her.
pj
Cafe5to2 Waitress
Posts: 264
Joined: 02 Dec 2008

Post by pj »

Avianna wrote:
paladin181 wrote:The sex isn't the goal here, but rather the means to the goal: Harry's affection.
This is how I feel as well. That is why I don't believe that she uses Dahlia's form to have sex with her father. And also why I feel its just another measure to try and get him from coming to her.
It is possible to reconcile the notion that sex isn't the goal with the Electra Complex, though. I think for one she has an EC, but I don't think sex is the goal, either.
LoneWolf616
Just Passing Through
Posts: 9
Joined: 14 Feb 2010
Location: USA, CT

Post by LoneWolf616 »

Panzer_Kämpfer wrote:A series of echo messages about a nameless girl referred to as "Pigtails" pop up when Harry reaches Midwich High. Her boyfriend is upset with her for not putting out in one message, then there's another in which a guy praises her for looking like the "most perfect schoolgirl ever" due to her pigtails.
There's also the echo photo you can snap in the brothel; it shows a girl sitting with her face in her hands, a pigtailed wig beside her. One of her clients went crazy on her when he saw that her hair was only a wig.
Cheryl is "Pigtails".
I think you're mixing up the girls in the "pigtails" and "frigid" messages.

First of all, the hooker in the "pigtails" echo photo is not the same girl being talked to by her father in the "pigtails" echo message. The voicemail that is triggered by approaching the car outside is of a father talking to his daughter about her pigtails hairstyle. We don't hear the daughter talk. It's the father who is of importance in this message, not the daughter. The voicemail that is triggered by taking a photo of the woman in the whore house is of that same father talking to a hooker. He hits her when he first sees her in the pigtails wig because she reminds him of her daughter. So in the parking lot echo message, it's a guy and his daughter. In the club echo message, it's the same guy with a hooker. The hooker is NOT his daughter, though it may be Cheryl. I have my doubts though.

As for the "frigid" echo messages, I don't think the girl being talked to in this message is the same hooker from "pigtails." I do however believe that the "frigid" girl is definitely Cheryl.

And to answer the original question as to what Dr. K is talking about when he says "abnormal sexuality", I too believe that he is talking about her denial of sex (frigidity), which he says is the same as denying death. Plus, having an affair with her teacher just because he somehow reminded her of her dad could definitely be considered abnormal. And for those who believe that she has an Electra complex, that could be considered abnormal sexuality.
Last edited by LoneWolf616 on 17 Feb 2010, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Yuki
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 2545
Joined: 12 Oct 2009

Post by Yuki »

LoneWolf616 wrote:
It seems like a lot of people are getting a whole lot of things mixed up in regards to the "frigid" and "pigtails" echo messages.

First of all, the hooker in the "pigtails" echo photo is not the same girl being talked to by her father in the "pigtails" echo message. The voicemail that is triggered by approaching the car outside is of a father talking to his daughter about her pigtails hairstyle. We don't hear the daughter talk. It's the father who is of importance in this message, not the daughter. The voicemail that is triggered by taking a photo of the woman in the whore house is of that same father talking to a hooker. He hits her when he first sees her in the pigtails wig because she reminds him of her daughter. So in the parking lot echo message, it's a guy and his daughter. In the club echo message, it's the same guy with a hooker. The hooker is NOT his daughter, and I see no evidence to suggest either of these girls is Cheryl.

As for the "frigid" echo messages, I have no idea why people think the girl being talked to in this message is the same hooker from "pigtails." They are two separate echo messages. I do however believe that the "frigid" girl could definitely be Cheryl.

And to answer the original question as to what Dr. K is talking about when he says "abnormal sexuality", I too believe that he is talking about her denial of sex (frigidity), which he says is the same as denying death. Plus, having an affair with her teacher just because he somehow reminded her of her dad could definitely be considered abnrmal.

Having the father be of importance makes very, very little sense, though. All the other messages, save for the ones about the boy killing the deer (and the boys drowning) in the forest, have to do with Cheryl. Shattered Memories is mostly Cheryl's story; why would these few messages be different?
User avatar
Kenji
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 5077
Joined: 19 Jul 2007

Post by Kenji »

Yuki wrote:Having the father be of importance makes very, very little sense, though. All the other messages, save for the ones about the boy killing the deer (and the boys drowning) in the forest, have to do with Cheryl. Shattered Memories is mostly Cheryl's story; why would these few messages be different?
Parallel cases to introduce a point, which the rest of the series uses fairly often.

The important factor of the Pigtails subplot is what it introduces: the car scene shows a disappointed man noting the loss of his daughter's pigtails; the brothel scene has him striking another girl for resembling his daughter... and then he has her put the wig (which has pigtails) back on and accompany him upstairs.

I got an immediate squick reaction because I still remember Paranoia Agent. Because of that, I didn't think that Cheryl being any of these characters was significant, because these scenes point to the sexual shading of her longing whether she's an actor in them or not.
Image
LoneWolf616
Just Passing Through
Posts: 9
Joined: 14 Feb 2010
Location: USA, CT

Post by LoneWolf616 »

Yuki wrote:Having the father be of importance makes very, very little sense, though. All the other messages, save for the ones about the boy killing the deer (and the boys drowning) in the forest, have to do with Cheryl. Shattered Memories is mostly Cheryl's story; why would these few messages be different?
Actually, 8 of the 20 echo messages are not about Cheryl. That's almost half. Stranded, Babes in the Woods, Cycle of Death, Choking Game, Prom, Big Bear, The Experience, and Celebration Time do not have anything to do directly with Cheryl. So it's possible that Pigtails has nothing to do with Cheryl either.
User avatar
Yuki
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 2545
Joined: 12 Oct 2009

Post by Yuki »

LoneWolf616 wrote:
Yuki wrote:Having the father be of importance makes very, very little sense, though. All the other messages, save for the ones about the boy killing the deer (and the boys drowning) in the forest, have to do with Cheryl. Shattered Memories is mostly Cheryl's story; why would these few messages be different?
Actually, 8 of the 20 echo messages are not about Cheryl. That's almost half. Stranded, Babes in the Woods, Cycle of Death, Choking Game, Prom, Big Bear, The Experience, and Celebration Time do not have anything to do directly with Cheryl. So it's possible that Pigtails has nothing to do with Cheryl either.

I disagree with Stranded; I believe it was Cheryl that went to the forest for a party and got drugged. Remind me of what the others were, please?
User avatar
Avianna
Cafe5to2 Waitress
Posts: 217
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: BEHIND YOU!
Contact:

Post by Avianna »

I kinda am under the impression that some of these messages go with some of the stories made as you play the game. Like the girl wearing pigtails msg turns into something more involved with the story if you get the Siren and Sleaze ending. And there is also some dialogue changes that make the Frigid msgs important as well, that I only got the second time through.
User avatar
FiliusMartis
Cafe5to2 Waitress
Posts: 201
Joined: 31 Mar 2008

Post by FiliusMartis »

Not really. I've gotten every ending except the alcohol one, and none of the echoes have become more plentiful or seemingly significant.
User avatar
NeoAquarius12
Gravedigger
Posts: 507
Joined: 09 May 2008

Post by NeoAquarius12 »

They all make sense in the context of the game. The game developers aren't making secret messages for us to find that have no relation to what is going on between Harry and Cheryl and the rest of the mishmash of characters. They ain't pranksters.

I thought it was Cheryl in the woods too. But if there is more evidence to support otherwise, then it is something Cheryl dealt with despite not being that person in the actual echo. The one I am sure is her is the mall clepto. I got a picture of her to prone it. lol. Ad the high school whore. That is definitely her.
I don't make a signature.
Except for the part of the signature explaining that I don't.
And that.
And that.
And that.
...
...and that.
pj
Cafe5to2 Waitress
Posts: 264
Joined: 02 Dec 2008

Post by pj »

LoneWolf616 wrote: Actually, 8 of the 20 echo messages are not about Cheryl. That's almost half. Stranded, Babes in the Woods, Cycle of Death, Choking Game, Prom, Big Bear, The Experience, and Celebration Time do not have anything to do directly with Cheryl. So it's possible that Pigtails has nothing to do with Cheryl either.
Even if they don't directly involve Cheryl as a main player, you can still theorize that each of these echoes in some way ties in with her life. If nothing else you could reason that she witnessed the ones in which she didn't actively participate.

There's no enough evidence to prove it, of course, but that's kind of par for the course here, isn't it? And I agree with the notion Yuki expressed that it makes sense for them to be related to Cheryl, considering its her story.
The hooker is NOT his daughter, though it may be Cheryl. I have my doubts though.
I agree the hooker is not the dude's daughter, but its really hard to ignore the fact that the hooker is situated in exactly the same pose, and has the same hair color and body type, as the girl in the "Frigid" echo photo, who we all pretty much agree is Cheryl.
User avatar
AuraTwilight
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 11390
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
Contact:

Post by AuraTwilight »

First of all, the hooker in the "pigtails" echo photo is not the same girl being talked to by her father in the "pigtails" echo message. The voicemail that is triggered by approaching the car outside is of a father talking to his daughter about her pigtails hairstyle. We don't hear the daughter talk. It's the father who is of importance in this message, not the daughter. The voicemail that is triggered by taking a photo of the woman in the whore house is of that same father talking to a hooker. He hits her when he first sees her in the pigtails wig because she reminds him of her daughter. So in the parking lot echo message, it's a guy and his daughter. In the club echo message, it's the same guy with a hooker. The hooker is NOT his daughter, though it may be Cheryl. I have my doubts though.
Nice completely baseless speculation there.

I really doubt the car echo is supposed to be the guy's daughter; for one thing, he's dropping her off at a high school and he's being ridiculously childish and patronizing, sounding very much like fetish play. Secondly, there's the issue of why this would be important enough to Cheryl to remember, or even actually hear somehow (was she in the car?)
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Post Reply