angelofROOM302 wrote:So 8 year old little Cheryl wanted her father sexually?
Plus there is no real proof that Cherly wanted him sexually, right? She sleeps with men who resemble her father because she wants him in her life. Doesn't mean that she wanted her "father" sexually. Or I could be wrong. It's just so sick and twisted to even think about! Lol.
"Electra complex
–noun Psychoanalysis.
the unresolved, unconscious libidinous desire of a daughter for her father: designation based on the Greek myth of Electra and Agamemnon. "
The whole game is a display of her electra complex with Harry, including the sex scene with Dahlia. A person doesn't have to actually be aware of it ( much less a 7 years old ). Is an unconscious desire. Being more aware and/or making it happen is considered incest, not only and inclination..
Incest is a sexual act. Incest did not take place (in the real world). An incestuous inclination or desire is just that, an inclination or desire for an act of incest or resembling incest. Sometimes having sexual relationships with people who resemble a parent is simply a manifestation of desire for them to be in your life. However, remember that young Dahlia is a projection of Cheryl, one who has a sexual relationship with Harry. That's pretty straight forward.
Er, is that not what an Electra complex is? When Harry died she was 7 and therefore too young to have any incestuous inclinations; the Cheryl we learn about after Harry's death, however, wanted Harry sexually.
So 8 year old little Cheryl wanted her father sexually?
Plus there is no real proof that Cherly wanted him sexually, right? She sleeps with men who resemble her father because she wants him in her life. Doesn't mean that she wanted her "father" sexually. Or I could be wrong. It's just so sick and twisted to even think about! Lol.
No! XD I meant older Cheryl, not just Cheryl-right-after-his-death.
What we do know is that she pursued sexual relationships with older men because she misses him in her life. However, if she wanted simply a father in her life, she would find mentors, not sleep with them.
That's not necessarily true. She wants affection and love from these men, and they don't realize it, and the only way she'll get anything resembling affection from them is by hopping in the old sack. Same with Young Dahlia. Cheryl by now has convinced herself that sex is the only reason men pay attention to women, and she merely wants to love him, and to feel him love her, not necessarily sexually. But if that's what it takes to get love... then so be it.
Electra complex is normal in MANY people. Most women seek out a man like their father, unless he's a complete douchebag, or absent in her life (sometimes even then). It's not like she's having thoughts of sexual encounters with her father, but rather she idealizes him as the perfect man and wants to be with men like him (that's the basis of Electra complex, not conscious thoughts of a sexual relationship). It's not as dirty as people are trying to make it out to be.
However, there are indeed cases of Daddy daughter sexual encounters, and that's... That's plain disturbing.
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AuraTwilight wrote:I felt it was pretty obvious that Cheryl is "pigtails", unless you want to invoke ESP or something.
Cheryl is frigid and refuses to have sex with any of her normal peers, like a boyfriend, but she keeps having sex with older men who remind her of her father. Basically, she's projecting a buttload of unsatisfied incestual inclinations.
Yep, I'm with Paladin on this. It's extremely common for women to seek out men who are like their father. It's also very common for women to seek father figures in relationships, older more grounded men.
Neither means that they are fantasising about having sex with their father. I would say there is clearly a void being filled but the sex part isn't exactly it.
In the real world, I do find it slightly odd when women will refer to their boyfriends as 'Daddy'. I've seen that a few times and it does seem ever so slightly icky.
But seeking out older men doesn't strike me as coming under the heading of "abnormal sexuality", nor does sleeping with a teacher. Inappropriate perhaps but it doesn't say anything about how normal or abnormal the sexuality is.
Though, on a couple of my playthroughs, Cheryl (through Harry) did spend quite a bit of time staring at boobies...
It seems to me like you're sort of self-contradicting. It's true that seeking out older men in relationships may be fairly common, and it's true that this often has nothing to do with fantasizing about one's father. So you assert that this behavior is not abnormal. However, Kaufman clearly states that something about Cheryl's behavior is abnormal. Therefore, if both assertions are held to be true, there must be another aspect to Cheryl's sexuality that you are not considering.
Furthermore, it seems you're completely neglecting is that young Dahlia is clearly a projection of Cheryl. Dahlia implies a sexual relationship in the car and engages in a clearly sexual relationship with Harry on the boat. That is abnormal.
An Electra complex is not wanting a more mature individual or an individual who is similar to the father just because the father is a good or ideal man. The Electra complex is categorized as a sexual desire for the mother usually with anger towards the mother. Thinking your father is the ideal man is not an Electra complex from what I gather.
That's not necessarily true. She wants affection and love from these men, and they don't realize it, and the only way she'll get anything resembling affection from them is by hopping in the old sack. Same with Young Dahlia. Cheryl by now has convinced herself that sex is the only reason men pay attention to women, and she merely wants to love him, and to feel him love her, not necessarily sexually. But if that's what it takes to get love... then so be it.
You know, looking at it that way, that's even more depressing than the Electra thing.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
It's worth noting that every major female (except for Dahlia, who happens to look very much like Cheryl, and actually sleeps with Harry in Cheryl's fantasy) admits to be a Daddy's girl.
Michelle: Hey, I like men who dress like my dad.
Lisa: I usually go for guys who look like my father, then regret it the morning after.
Cybil: I was a cop in this town for twenty years, and before that I used to ride around in my daddy's patrol car...
Hell, the barmaid also says that Cheryl's "A real daddy's girl".
Cheryl is sexually focused on her father, her mental spawns, the aspects of her personality also inherited that trait. She, apparently tried, to fulfill her daddy fantasy, or fill the void her father left, by sleeping with K. Gordon ("Dirty! He's old enough to be her father"), while at the same time, she remained sexually unresponsive to men her age.
As for the whole Cheryl=Prostitute thing, I am not convinced. Couldn't that be a story Cheryl invented about someone she knew? Perhaps a normal father/daughter relationship through Cheryl's eyes?
Arsonist wrote:
As for the whole Cheryl=Prostitute thing, I am not convinced. Couldn't that be a story Cheryl invented about someone she knew? Perhaps a normal father/daughter relationship through Cheryl's eyes?
I think that's definitely possible (as my thoughts on the echo messages explained in other threads will attest), but I'm not sure what evidence there is to suggest that's the case with pigtails.
Personally, I think its a pretty big clue that the photo directly before the Pigtails photo in the brothel is the one of Cheryl in the car on Bryant's lookout. And in both pictures, the subject is sitting in almost the same position.
Abnormal sexuality is such a broad brush stroke that it wouldn't stand on a normal psych eval anyway. It would preface a paragraph (or more) as to what makes it abnormal. So it's left ambiguous intentionally, methinks.
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^Pretty much, considering no matter what you do in the game, Dr. K says that you have "abnormal sexual" problems. My sister, a virgin w/ prudish ways didn't indicate a sexual interest in anything in the game, she said NO to the question regarding role-playing, she said YES to question of "Does sex get stale after marriage?" and she put all of the ink blots on the non-sexual side. He stated that she was obsessed w/ NOT having sex and still mentioned the "abnormal sexuality" at the end of the game. My game was sexual themed right from the beginning, w/ sexy Cybil distracting me w/ those propped-up headlights, so I wasn't shocked w/ the remark in my game, but was kinda taken back when he still said they same thing on my sister's game.
Well, he always says it no matter what, cos he's directing the comment towards Cheryl, rather than actual player. I think the only real sexuality comment made towards the player might be the "lousy in bed?" comment during the end profile.
AuraTwilight wrote:Of course, no one here is actually suggesting that Cheryl and Harry actually did it (though they sort of did vis-a-vis Young!Dahlia).
I don't think that was Cheryl's subcon. trying to sleep with Harry, I think it was her mind trying to keep him from reaching her via projecting a happy relationship with her mother. I think she was hoping that if he got back together with her mother from the past (when she believed them to be happier before her) he would maybe stop his pursuit of the lighthouse.
AuraTwilight wrote:Of course, no one here is actually suggesting that Cheryl and Harry actually did it (though they sort of did vis-a-vis Young!Dahlia).
I don't think that was Cheryl's subcon. trying to sleep with Harry, I think it was her mind trying to keep him from reaching her via projecting a happy relationship with her mother. I think she was hoping that if he got back together with her mother from the past (when she believed them to be happier before her) he would maybe stop his pursuit of the lighthouse.
I disagree. Harry seemed determined no matter what to find Cheryl, and the fact that not only Cheryl pursued older men during her life but having Cybil have daddy issues and Lisa be also into older men seems to scream otherwise, to me.
Yeah, its really hard to deny Cheryl's Electra Complex.
However, I do think its important that we make the distinction that having an Electra Complex is, in itself, not abnormal. Electra and Oedipus Complexes are considered normal stages of human development.
What makes Cheryl's Electra Complex abnormal and unhealthy is the fact that it persists into her young adulthood. These complexes are supposed to end fairly early, when the child identifies with and accepts their parent of the same sex.
So it seems (at least to me) that Cheryl's off-kilter Electra Complex is not only the result of her father's absence, but also of her strained relationship with her mother.
pj wrote:Yeah, its really hard to deny Cheryl's Electra Complex.
However, I do think its important that we make the distinction that having an Electra Complex is, in itself, not abnormal. Electra and Oedipus Complexes are considered normal stages of human development.
What makes Cheryl's Electra Complex abnormal and unhealthy is the fact that it persists into her young adulthood. These complexes are supposed to end fairly early, when the child identifies with and accepts their parent of the same sex.
So it seems (at least to me) that Cheryl's off-kilter Electra Complex is not only the result of her father's absence, but also of her strained relationship with her mother.
Er, I'm not quiiite sure I understand. Isn't an Electra Complex when you desire your parent sexually...?
