What The Heck Were They Doing Out There???

[cascade88]

*Where can I learn how to quote?*

Uhm, you can click the little button within a message that says 'quote'. Or, you can put

[/*quote] around words, minus the asterisk, naturally.

[Ryoshockwave]

All of the other games present events as if what we're experiencing is true. They never double back and say, or even suggest "your experiences in this game never happened."

With the exception of SH1's "bad" ending, of course.

[AuraTwilight]

It's possible Harry left the door open; we do not see him lock it.

It's still breaking and entering. What thought process would lead her to think "a derp derp go inside this building and see if Harry's in here who cares if this is someone's house?"

Well that's not really true. All of the other games present events as if what we're experiencing is true. They never double back and say, or even suggest "your experiences in this game never happened."

Incorrect. SH3 and SHO both attempt mindscrews to make you think you're hallucinating, SH1 provides an ending where it was all a dying dream, and SH4 is LITERALLY a dream, and Homecoming possesses two endings that reveal that the game never happened.

And it occurs to me that SM doesn't really have psychology of it's characters, because in essence there is only one real character in the course of the game. Well 2, counting Kaufman. All of the other characters, Lisa, Cybil, Dahlia, prom queen lady, you never actually meet them in the course of the game. So you can't really say anything about their psychology. SM is in essence a one character play.

Exactly the point. Though really, SH2, SH3, and Homecoming are the only games to really focus on more than one person, as far as psychology goes.

Anyway, it seems like there are people who do care about the events that happen, with all the talk about what is "canon." People care about that stuff, they piecing events together and all that. I don't think it's all about the pyschology, I think that's just one aspect.

Those people are silly, and the same people who decided to hate the movie purely because it wasn't a remake of the first game.

"But Cheryl creates fake radio disturbances and phone calls in the entire game."

-She's only doing it with Harry's phone and not other peoples'.

That's not true, though. What about the televisions in the beginning of the game, the answering machines, the radio in the hospital, the computer in the school, and so on? She has absolute control over everything.

"Michelle isn't real, mind. Apparently a classmate of Cheryl's wore that dress as the prom queen, and it's a used dress, meaning that Michelle from the sex tape may have worn it."

-I'm not sure. So she remembers that prom queen from highschool and then projects that dress on Michelle? The interactions/conversations between John and Michelle felt really grounded and real like a real couple would do and not like what an unstable mind would create. Like with the constructed young/old Dahlias, they act very vaguely psychotic like what a person with the same sense of thought would make up. Also, I remember in one of her babbles when you're tailing her to the Balkan she talked about relaxing at home eating or drinking Champoorado (here in the Philippines we Champoorado is a chocolate rice pudding but I read somewhere that in Mexico it is a chocolate drink). She obviously has a Mexican lineage since her last name is Valdez and she is more likely to eat that stuff than Cheryl who you think* is creating her and the things she say (*Sorry, I'm not sure if you're thinking this).

Well, she could've also gained the image of Michelle from the sex tape in one ending, whatever.

The conversations may seem real and grounded, but so does a lot of what Dahlia says, and we know she's not real. Also, the conversation John and Michelle have is a perfect parallel to the relationship between Harry and Cheryl.

"But I love you..." "You don't love me, you love this idea of me in your head!"

You're also underestimating the sheer amount of detail and imagination the human mind has. Unstable minds aren't any less talented at creating personas, and regardless, there ARE unstable elements in Michelle's personality. She behaves irregularly, and even vanishes into thin air atleast once.

and Michelle Valdez, if she is a construct, is based on someone Cheryl actually saw in a video and/or went to school with. It's not like she's ENTIRELY made up. Though, Michelle's taste in food is borderline stereotyping, to me, and the "You know churros?!" line sounded almost racist.

The S&S ending seems to me like a very random ending and the fact that Michelle and Lisa's character models just makes everything out of place. I wonder if Climax are doing these screwed up things with a prior knowledge or basis on what they actually mean or are they just throwing random things and expect us to formulate insane explanations. At least in previous titles, the explanation of fans on most symbolisms are easy to be agreed upon by all but in this game, everyone's having very different views in what is considered the most straight-forward story in the series.

Oh come off it, it's not out of place. The ending is an implication that Michelle and Lisa are made up.

Oh and this just came to my mind. How do you imagine Cheryl creating this world around Harry? Do you imagine her sitting in a corner with her eyes closed and thinking stuff like "hey, puppet number 2, do this." Weird. No, subconsciously and maybe Silent Hill doing most of the job. Anyway, my point is that does she really have a direct control on what Harry encounters?

I imagine it's a supernatural event like in other games.

"Lisa isn't real either. She asks questions and shows information she can't possibly know if she were a real person, such as Harry's phone number and the knowledge that he had a daughter when he didn't tell her either."

-Then she might actually just be a spirit walking on the same plane as Harry like I said in one of my post. Considering Lisa's source material, she's the most likely to be this kind of thing where she's been dead all along like in the first one. So, yes, it's not that farfetch to think that right? However, I still believe that Cybil is a real person but if she is real how come she can see Lisa's corpse?

Harry is not a ghost, he's something Cheryl made up in her head based on the real Harry, same with Lisa. She shows knowledge the real Lisa (or her ghost) cannot have, and she has some of Cheryl's personality traits just like Michelle and Dahlia do. As for Cybil, I don't think she's real. Infact, she seems the most unreal to me out of every character besides Harry and Dahlia.

[NeoAquarius12]

Wow, lots of debate going on in here. Just to be clear, I don't support any ending as a true ending to this game... I think they are all plausible because they are chosen by the actions that Cheryl has the man she believes Harry to be doing... There has to be a better way to say that. I am still missing Drunk Dad and The Wicked One... or whatever it was called, but if you use the profile that would have the game steer in that direction, then I believe that is the true outcome of the game. Since it's not in the regular scheme of the other games, we have no proof that any of these are impossible.

[FiliusMartis]

It's still breaking and entering. What thought process would lead her to think "a derp derp go inside this building and see if Harry's in here who cares if this is someone's house?"

While I completely agree that Michelle is not real I feel the need to point out that this is not 'someone's house.' It's supposed to be Harry's house. Furthermore, it's usually not really considered breaking and entering if you have a reason to believe someone inside is in danger. Harry was in a car accident and seems to have sustained a head injury or something to the point that he forgot where he lived and how old his daughter was. It's reasonable she would go check on him. The door may be ajar so, knowing he wasn't well earlier, she goes in to make sure he's okay. Is it speculation? Of course, but it's entirely possible.

She shows knowledge the real Lisa (or her ghost) cannot have...

Again, completely agree that she's not real, but I want to point out that in at least two playthroughs I've done, Harry did tell her about his daughter before she mentioned her, so experiences vary.

[Evilwhiteranger]

To AuraTwilight:
Good points! Obviously I haven't played the game that much (twice, both Love Lost ending) but I sure do want to get enlightened more!

This story should have been the first movie.

[AuraTwilight]

While I completely agree that Michelle is not real I feel the need to point out that this is not 'someone's house.' It's supposed to be Harry's house. Furthermore, it's usually not really considered breaking and entering if you have a reason to believe someone inside is in danger. Harry was in a car accident and seems to have sustained a head injury or something to the point that he forgot where he lived and how old his daughter was. It's reasonable she would go check on him. The door may be ajar so, knowing he wasn't well earlier, she goes in to make sure he's okay. Is it speculation? Of course, but it's entirely possible.

But according to Michelle's own sense of logic, Harry's wife and daughter live there; she's superfluous. And if she cares about his safety so damned much, why does she ditch him like three times? What a bitch.

Again, completely agree that she's not real, but I want to point out that in at least two playthroughs I've done, Harry did tell her about his daughter before she mentioned her, so experiences vary.

The fact that she says it either way, though, indicates that his mentioning her is completely irrelevant. If Harry doesn't mention her, Cheryl goes "oh shit" and has Lisa basically grind the plot gears to get them back on track.

Cheryl's basically a shitty Dungeon Master who keeps guiding her NPCs onto the plot rails, and isn't very good at managing dungeons, monster encounters, or plot holes. And the treasure spoils? Bitch, please, +1 DEX cigarettes my bony ass.

[NeoAquarius12]

Cheryl's basically a shitty Dungeon Master who keeps guiding her NPCs onto the plot rails, and isn't very good at managing dungeons, monster encounters, or plot holes. And the treasure spoils? Bitch, please, +1 DEX cigarettes my bony ass.

Tha is astonishingly one of the best breakdowns of this game I have read thus far. Slightly humorous, and then just sexy... a good combination of things.

[Droo]

I strongly believe that everyone Harry encounters in SM are real people in a town beset by a freak storm, and that IdealHarry is really wandering around the town interacting with real people.

Do you think the freak storm is just a random event or is Cheryl aiding it? If her delusion is strong enough that the town is manifesting Harry could it also be affecting the weather. The ice symbolism fits. I don't mean that Cheryl is causing th e storm but maybe just making it worse. In such a case, as Cybil is taking Harry to the police station where he is bound to learn the truth, the snow could become just a bit more intense to the point where Cybil has trouble navigating. Granted, we don't see that, but we also don't get to look until after she's gone and the goal is accomplished. Similarly, something has to be leading Cybil to Harry's location every time.

The snowstorm is real, made extreme by the town feeding on Cheryl's guilt.

IdealHarry blinks out of reality in the IceWorld, but the Snowy Silent Hill stuff is in reality, I think.

[Yuki]

I strongly believe that everyone Harry encounters in SM are real people in a town beset by a freak storm, and that IdealHarry is really wandering around the town interacting with real people.

Do you think the freak storm is just a random event or is Cheryl aiding it? If her delusion is strong enough that the town is manifesting Harry could it also be affecting the weather. The ice symbolism fits. I don't mean that Cheryl is causing th e storm but maybe just making it worse. In such a case, as Cybil is taking Harry to the police station where he is bound to learn the truth, the snow could become just a bit more intense to the point where Cybil has trouble navigating. Granted, we don't see that, but we also don't get to look until after she's gone and the goal is accomplished. Similarly, something has to be leading Cybil to Harry's location every time.

The snowstorm is real, made extreme by the town feeding on Cheryl's guilt.

IdealHarry blinks out of reality in the IceWorld, but the Snowy Silent Hill stuff is in reality, I think.

I am inclined to agree, though I think at least Lisa and Michelle are also constructs that interact with Harry.

[Droo]

Michelle is the most arguable, but I don't see how Lisa can be a construct if Cybil and Snowy Silent Hill is real. Cybil is able to see Lisa and reacts to her death.

If we discount Sirens&Sleaze, there is no reason for Cheryl to manifest either of them. The only way for their presense to make any sense if they are constructs is for S&S to be the ONE true ending. Without S&S, their presense as constructs ceases to make any sense at all.

Lisa and Michelle as real people make perfect sense. Lisa is just an unfortunate who crashed her vehicle into the hospital during the freak storm, and dies of her injuries. Michelle is another innocent bystander who attends her canceled reunion during the freak storm. They are just as real as the couple in the house on Levin Street, the bridge operator, the bartender, and the other characters Harry speaks with on the phone over the course of the game.

[FiliusMartis]

The fact that she says it either way, though, indicates that his mentioning her is completely irrelevant.

Fair enough, but that wasn't my point. I was just saying that it's entirely possible for someone to play the game several times and never experience Lisa's conversation being particularly weird in which case they would be operating with. Furthermore, if some consider each playthrough a different reality, then what changes whether or not he has to tell her may be relevant.

But according to Michelle's own sense of logic, Harry's wife and daughter live there; she's superfluous. And if she cares about his safety so damned much, why does she ditch him like three times?

She thinks he's pretty much fine but suggests he should go to a doctor. He's not going to do any such thing until he finds out Cheryl is okay. Michelle believes Cheryl and Dahlia are at the house. After John picks her up, she tells him what's happened and they decide to go check on Harry after they eat. She gets to the house; maybe the door is ajar. She knocks, she calls. Nobody answers. Regardless of whether or not Dahlia and Cheryl were there, something is wrong, so she goes in. It's not an unreasonable sequence.

The snowstorm is real, made extreme by the town feeding on Cheryl's guilt.

Sure. My suggestion was that when Cybil (upon your assumption that she's real) may be getting Harry too close to the truth too fast, Cheryl makes the very real storm worse to prevent such.

I don't see how Lisa can be a construct if Cybil and Snowy Silent Hill is real. Cybil is able to see Lisa and reacts to her death.

That doesn't mean Lisa needs to be real. We know Harry isn't entirely real, at best he's a construct brought to life by the town, at worse an illusion, and Cybil interacts with him on a physical level.

If we discount Sirens&Sleaze, there is no reason for Cheryl to manifest either of them.

I disagree. Michelle claims that she went to school with Cheryl. During this period, Michelle was dating John. Cheryl could have seen their relationship, been jealous maybe? As for Lisa, I always assumed she was Cheryl's nurse at the hospital. If you play through in a sexual manner then the hospital echo will involve Harry saying he has to go talk to the nurse in a manner which is clearly intended to suggest he intends to seduce her. Whether or not you think Harry was like that, the nurse could be the same girl. Furthermore, it seems like although they massively changed the game and all the characters, a basic look at relations shows correlation. Harry is still Cheryl's father, Dahlia is still her mother (Alessa was Cheryl after all), Kaufman is still her doctor, so... it makes sense that Lisa still could have been her nurse.

Lisa is just an unfortunate who crashed her vehicle into the hospital during the freak storm, and dies of her injuries.

Except her death looks nothing like what her injuries would have caused. She has a head injury, but the blood comes from the opposite side of her head than the injury and from underneath her. Something in the scene is just wrong.

[AuraTwilight]

Michelle is the most arguable, but I don't see how Lisa can be a construct if Cybil and Snowy Silent Hill is real. Cybil is able to see Lisa and reacts to her death.

Cybil can see Harry, so being able to see Lisa doesn't mean anything.

Why did Lisa not go INTO the damn hospital for treatment? I would hope no real life certified nurse is that stupid. How does Lisa get Harry's phone number? How does she know he has a daughter when he never mentions it? Don't you find it the least bit significant that she has a thing for people who look like her dad, just like Cheryl? Hell, why does Harry even see her? She has no relevance to the storyline except to be an allegory for Cheryl's unfounded guilt, and if she's human, her presence and death are ridiculously too contrived to be a coincidence.

If we discount Sirens&Sleaze, there is no reason for Cheryl to manifest either of them. The only way for their presense to make any sense if they are constructs is for S&S to be the ONE true ending. Without S&S, their presense as constructs ceases to make any sense at all.

Both of them behave ridiculously unrealistic, contrived, inconsistent, and contradictory regardless of ending. The ending only provides a possible origin. It's not the end-all be-all of the argument.

Lisa and Michelle as real people make perfect sense. Lisa is just an unfortunate who crashed her vehicle into the hospital during the freak storm, and dies of her injuries. Michelle is another innocent bystander who attends her canceled reunion during the freak storm. They are just as real as the couple in the house on Levin Street, the bridge operator, the bartender, and the other characters Harry speaks with on the phone over the course of the game.

See above for Michelle, but as for Michelle:

How in the holy batfuck does she get into the school if the reunion is canceled? How did she get past all the locked doors? There's no way the credit card trick would most with most exterior school doors. Why does she, in some playthroughs, wear a dress she couldn't of owned during the time period she should've known Cheryl? Why does she disappear into thin fucking air twice? Why and how does she break into Harry's house, and how does she magically know where he is multiple times? How does she know what Harry is snooping through in her room the moment he peeks in it? How does she get his cellphone number?

Fair enough, but that wasn't my point. I was just saying that it's entirely possible for someone to play the game several times and never experience Lisa's conversation being particularly weird in which case they would be operating with. Furthermore, if some consider each playthrough a different reality, then what changes whether or not he has to tell her may be relevant.

It's still a massive problem that needs to be addressed, and it doesn't excuse all the other weird things Lisa does that happen on every possible playthrough.

She thinks he's pretty much fine but suggests he should go to a doctor. He's not going to do any such thing until he finds out Cheryl is okay. Michelle believes Cheryl and Dahlia are at the house. After John picks her up, she tells him what's happened and they decide to go check on Harry after they eat. She gets to the house; maybe the door is ajar. She knocks, she calls. Nobody answers. Regardless of whether or not Dahlia and Cheryl were there, something is wrong, so she goes in. It's not an unreasonable sequence.

Alright fine, but then that just makes her a callous, stupid bitch for deciding to eat first before checking to see if her friend is alive, imo.

Again, doesn't solve all the weird problems, it's just a drop in the bucket.

[FiliusMartis]

Excellent points all; the most interesting is that Lisa and Michelle magically have Harry's number with no explanation. However, in defense of Cybil, since she was the original topic, she explains that she got his number from his wallet. This essentially helps set her apart as different from the other two. It's something to think about.

Alright fine, but then that just makes her a callous, stupid bitch for deciding to eat first before checking to see if her friend is alive, imo.

I'd agree but for the fact that she calls him right before hand and he's still on his way home. Shortly before the scene where Michelle finds him in the house, he was in the nightmare world. We know from earlier that he can't get phone calls in there because Cybil tried and failed. It's speculation, but it's entirely plausible that Michelle called him, he's okay so she goes to eat. She calls him one more time to see if he got home before she goes home, he doesn't answer, so she worries and goes to find out.

Again, Aura, I totally agree with you that they're not real; I'm just putting up the arguments because I can see how it could go either way in some cases. My main problem now, however, is how people are getting his number.

[AuraTwilight]

Excellent points all; the most interesting is that Lisa and Michelle magically have Harry's number with no explanation. However, in defense of Cybil, since she was the original topic, she explains that she got his number from his wallet. This essentially helps set her apart as different from the other two. It's something to think about.

You're right. But I would personally return with the point of: Why would his number be in the wallet to begin with? The real Harry didn't have a cellphone, and the wallet was already manifest before Cybil's eyes before Cheryl pulled Harry's cellphone out of her rectal cavity. To say nothing of the logistics of an imaginary person even having a fucking phone number that actually works, and why his cellphone number would be in his wallet in the first place.

I'd agree but for the fact that she calls him right before hand and he's still on his way home. Shortly before the scene where Michelle finds him in the house, he was in the nightmare world. We know from earlier that he can't get phone calls in there because Cybil tried and failed. It's speculation, but it's entirely plausible that Michelle called him, he's okay so she goes to eat. She calls him one more time to see if he got home before she goes home, he doesn't answer, so she worries and goes to find out.

Fair enough. She still disappears a hell of a lot though.

[FiliusMartis]

He works freelance. He could have a card. My dad has cards in his wallet with his cell number on them.

[Droo]

Lisa doesn't go into the hospital because she's totally dazed and confused from her head injury? Also given that a TRAIN had crashed into the hospital, perhaps they closed it and moved the patients elsewhere.

[AuraTwilight]

I highly doubt the trains are actually there in the reality a real Lisa lives in. I mean, how the hell does that even happen? And if they closed it, why did they call in Lisa for work? (and why does she drive an ambulance to work in some realities? Is it her personal goddamn vehicle?)

There's also the fact that she makes an inexplicably destructive crash scene, and then walks away from it without telling a damn person. Why in God's name is Harry the only person who noticed that?

[pj]

Why would Cybil take Harry to the hospital if a train crashed into it? And even that aside, the train is situated inside of the hospital grounds--how did that happen?

[Droo]

Aura: The snowstorm. Icy tracks, power outages, etc.

I always got the impression Lisa had been called in to work because of the snowstorm and the resulting chaos that ensued from it. We don't know how long she's been crashed there. The train derailment could have happened after she had already crashed.