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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 03 Sep 2009
Notes left: 111
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No, it's a new model.

In fact, this model of James in a chair (^_^) With other textures)

[spoiler]
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it was actually a fairly detailed update of Harry's face


[spoiler]
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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 01 Jan 2010
Notes left: 9
Last seen at: Paris, France
Thanks so much for the nice comments! :wink:

Yuki:
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I cannot access that site that you linked with the Silent Hill rumor because my virus protection claims it is an attack site...

I’m very sorry for that. The funny thing is I cannot access it anymore either. But I saved the HTML page a few weeks ago.

Here’s the whole text (2 articles: first the unofficial rumor, then the official refutation by SH2’s director):
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SILENT HILL 5

As of 11 July 2007, the information on this page is as good as obselete. Specific information has been released on Silent Hill 5. See the SH Blog for more details.

What do we know so far?
The only two sources of information may not be the most reliable, but their common ground paints a good picture for the new game. It would seem the Eurogamer is more official, but why are they the only ones to have this information? Review the two articles and decide for yourself.
- SH5 will be released in 2006
- The protagonist will be a mental patient in an institution, and the story will follow his past flashbacks
- SH5 will most likely be on next-gen consoles

-----------------
Unofficial Rumor on SH5
"Now that Silent Hill 4 is completely finished and set for release on Sep. 8 in North America, development on SH5 has begun to gain speed. Currently titled 'Silent Hill 5: Shadows of the Past' (The subtitle will most likely be dropped or changed), Konami wants to return to the same idea of SH2, which means they want a powerful story unrelated to other games in the series yet still ties into the dark history of SH. So what is the story? Like the previous games, Konami wants to keep it as secret as possible. But, they do have a brief synopsis which they've sent out to some shareholders who wanted to know what Konami was up to in the future. Here's what it read:

In 2006, gamers across the globe will return to Silent Hill for the final time on the PS2 in Silent Hill 5: Shadows of the Past. In the first time for a SH game, players will play through the game in flashbacks, retelling the main character's harrowing trip through through a town worse than hell.'

Here's a little more backstory for the game: The game starts with the main character being held in a mental institution. The flashbacks occur when the doctors interview your character and ask him exactly what happened in Silent Hill. Expect many twists and turns in the storyline, especially a big one at the end that supposedly has the Silent Hill team excited.

Like the synopsis says, this will be the last SH on the PS2. It definetely won't be the last of the series though, Konami wants another Silent Hill on the PS3 as soon as possible."

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"SH5 Coming to Next Gen"
[ Aug 17, 2004 | Kristan Reed of Eurogamer ]
The fifth episode of the gruesome Silent Hill series was confirmed today, but is being designed with next generation console hardware in mind.

During an interview to be published later this week, chief designer of the game Masashi Tsuboyama {and director of SH2} admitted that the title is already being planned for next generation machines, although Konami has yet to decide which one.

Asked if there would be a further Silent Hill game after the release of The Room, out next month on PS2, Xbox and PC, Tsuboyama-san first clarified rumours that it would not be called 'Shadows', but was happy to confirm that there would be ongoing adventures in the series.

"One website said we are creating a fifth [Silent Hill] called Shadows - we don't know where they got their information from; obviously it's not Shadows that we are creating, but we are creating the next one.

"We're not sure which hardware we will put [it out on], but [it will be] on the best one, be it PS3, be it Xbox 2... It won't be on the current consoles," he confirmed.

The news therefore means that The Room will be the last game in the series for some time, with next gen machines not expected to be released until some point in 2006.

Meanwhile, responding to criticism that The Room is too action-focused at the expense of puzzle solving, he retorted: "I don't take that as a negative. That was the concept all along."


Yuki:
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but isn't simply that: a rumor? We don't know if Team Silent actually had that idea.

It could be a false rumor, as much as it could be a legitimate leak. We’ll never know for sure… I for one find this rumor a little bit too elaborate to be completely made out of nowhere. But that’s not a proof of anything. We know how secretive Team Silent was about their projects though. Masashi Tsuboyama sure had to debunk this rumor anyway. But once again, that doesn’t mean anything... I want to believe this rumor is true…

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-Team Silent no longer works on the Silent Hill series, and I doubt they had any idea of what to do this far into the games. They haven't worked on it since Silent Hill 4, and I highly doubt they could tell Climax what to do, especially when we know Climax themselves developed the ideas used in the game. I highly doubt not showing Harry was intentional enough to be explained in a game whose development was not influenced by Team Silent.

All we know for sure is that Team Silent had plans for sequels they were working on (see Masashi Tsuboyama’s comments above…), but they never had a chance to finish their plans, since they got disbanded. But there definitely were plans…

The other thing we know is that Tomm Hulett said they consulted Team Silent to conceive SH:SM:
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Tomm Hulett: early on, we went to the original staff of Silent Hill 1 after we came up with this concept of re-imagining and we said, "Hey guys, when you were making the first game, what was your goal? What were you trying to accomplish? What are things that maybe you couldn't do, you would do better or differently?" Using that information of what their goal was, we took the same goal and we made this new Silent Hill 1 to be the modern day interpretation of what they were trying to accomplish with the real Silent Hill 1.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/24/interview-silent-hill-shattered-memories-producer-tomm-hulett/

Yuki:
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-If I remember correctly, Helen did not enter the Otherworld, but the Otherside, which is a manifestation of insanity solely in her own mind.

I don’t really get the difference, to be honest. And that’s the first time I hear of a Otherside… But whichever name you choose, Otherworld, Otherside or even "Mirror world" (notes you can find in SH0rigins refer to an "other world" and a "mirror world"), the description of this "mirror world" reminded me a lot of the Otherworld. Especially in a game where we see Travis accessing the Otherworld through… mirrors!!!

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-Isn't epolineum some form of medication? White Claudia is a recreational drug, and there don't seem to be any links between the two.

Well, we don’t know what Epolineum really is. Just that it’s used as a sedative. But it could very well be a particular hallucinogen used as a sedative, since it seems to plunge patients in catatonic states. Or should I say, as it IS PRECISELY stated, "in an apparent catatonic state". :wink:
Overuse of sedatives plunges patients in full catatonic states. Not just "apparent". Apparent catatonic states may instead be the (well-known) side effect of hallucinogens. It’s called an "excited catatonic state", and can be caused by hallucinogens…
So I’d say Epolineum could really be a hallucinogen:
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Dr. Harris: "Her fantasies of a "mirror world" have become more acute, and she spends more and more time in an apparent catatonic state. She claims that during this time she is in the "other world."

:arrow: There is here a direct connection pointed out between 1/ apparent catatonic state, 2/ delusional state/hallucinations, and 3/ the "mirror world" (also known as "the Otherworld").
Why should I look any further? :wink:

The next paragraph suggests there another close connection between this "apparent catatonic state" (more and more time) and the increased doses of Epolineum she’s been prescribed...

As for the "medication vs. recreational drug" debate, let’s not forget we’re speaking about the early 60’s here. Hallucinogens were used as treatments, for therapeutic use, during psychotherapies back then. Psychiatrists were experimenting with hallucinogens on patients (the most famous ones certainly are LSD and Psilocybin mushrooms). They were even experimenting on themselves actually! (That’s what they called the psychotomimetic model, by the way…).
It has been prohibited in the late 60’s due to massive abuses and due to the fact the trend was spreading through the population a little bit too fast… Then research didn’t start again until recently (in the 90’s). => But a few psychiatrists HAVE begun to experiment again with hallucinogens on patients, as we speak! :wink:

=> So my guess for Silent Hill is: Epolineum for the 60’s, and white claudia for the 90’s (and the years to come…).

:arrow: Hallucinogens were especially experimented with on patients suffering from post-traumatic disorders (and compulsive disorders). It is believed hallucinogens can help to release repressed psychic material, such as repressed memories for instance:
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In subjects given a relatively low dose of LSD, there appeared to occur a release of repressed psychic material, particularly in anxiety states and obsessional neuroses. By allowing this otherwise repressed and threatening material to flow effortlessly into consciousness, investigators surmised that low dose LSD treatment could facilitate the psychotherapy process (STOLL,1947). Application of the low dose model in Europe as well as the United States ascertained that psycholytic treatment had particular value with patients with rigid defenses mechanisms and excessively strict superego structures. By facilitating ego regression, uncovering early childhood memories and inducing an affective release, psychiatrists claimed to have achieved a breakthrough in reducing the duration and improving the outcome of psychotherapeutic treatment.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/LSD/grob.htm
Release of repressed memories. Or should I say "recollection of past traumatic events". This IS actually what Dr. Harris describes when he speaks about Helen Grady. And he seems to suggest this recollection is subsequent to her spending more and more time in her "mirror world" (and so, subsequent to her being prescribed increased doses of Epolineum)…

Yuki:
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-In Shattered Memories, Cheryl does not impersonate her father. She imagines that her father is out there searching for her; if anything, she impersonates young Dahlia.

I guess "impersonate" was not the right word then. :wink: But my point remains the same: whatever she is doing with Harry in SH:SM (she "creates" him, gives him life, makes him walk, makes him talk…), she was doing exactly the same with Harry in SH1. And (in my theory) Walter Sullivan was doing the same with Henry in SH4:TheRoom. As much as James did with Maria in SH2: Born From A Wish…

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-I really think that deciding Vincent is a doctor is a complete stretch; there is absolutely nothing to give credence to that theory.

When we first meet him he’s sitting at a desk in a place that is called, in the game (check the map), Green Ridge Mental Health Clinic. I don’t really need more to understand this room IS his office. Obviously making him a doctor…
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/silent/images/a/a3/HilltopCenterMap.jpg
Why would developers take such a long way to insert a mental health clinic right in the middle of an office center? They didn’t need to. Unless they did (for the real story hidden behind the first apparent SH3 story)…
(The bathtub is located in the first blue room at the top-left, right next to the biggest green room where Vincent is… working! There is a wheelchair (and a mannequin holding a doll) in the previous smaller green room… I don’t remember exactly where we can find the wheelchair from "Session 9" though but I think it’s in the Hilltop Center too…)

Oh, by the way, I almost forgot to say in my previous posts that there’s another occurrence of Cheryl/Heather sitting in her wheelchair:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHnAiaumbu8 :wink:

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-Also, there is no evidence to show that all monsters in the games are actually humans. Vincent is portrayed as sleazy and a liar; there is no reason to believe his claim of the monsters being something other than that, and it's possible he sees them as divine beings rather than humans.

That’s not what I said. I think THE ONE Heather shoots at the mall was really a human. The others are just manifestions/creations haunting her. Just regular monsters. If they were all humans that would mean Cheryl (or even James) killed thousands and thousands of people, LOL! That’s not my theory.
This first "mall monster" is much like Angela’s Abstract Daddy to me: a way to "reconstruct" a specific event/scene. => The stabbing of this mall security officer (for Cheryl), and the murder (probably at home) of Angela’s father (for Angela). THE FIRST Abstract Daddy we met (the boss in the room with Angela and the television) was a human being (or at least the monstrous representation of a now dead human being, just like the now dead(?) mall security officer). The next ones (encountered at the Lakeview Hotel) are just regular monsters. I’d say the same goes with the "mall monster"…

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-We do not know if Malcolm is dead or not, simply that he was stabbed.

Right, even though in one version of the 911 calls the man reporting the stabbing says Malcolm is dead (of course then he could have been mistaken as well…).
But that doesn’t really change anything. We don’t really have to mind if Malcolm is dead or if he survived. The fact is that Cheryl stabbed him. This is serious enough to have her arrested and then committed in a mental hospital (instead of a prison if she is considered to be mentally ill).

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-Your ideas about why Heather mentions the letter from a dead wife (though it's simply an easter egg) are really interesting... though they also rely solely on the idea that Shattered Memories is the true ending, which invalidates the entirety of the other games.

-Again, your ideas of the Order are fairly interesting, but rely solely on the idea that Shattered Memories is canon.

That’s my point indeed.

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-If the Bad Ending of SH0 is the one we're supposed to take to be true... why can we only unlock it on a second+ playthrough? Doesn't it make sense for the only ending you can get on a first playthrough to be the real ending?

In my eyes every single ending is possibly canon. Even SH0rigins’ "Good Ending". I think the only difference is "Bad Ending" gives us small glimpses of what the true reality could be. The "Good Ending" doesn’t. For me, the "Good Ending" simply mean Travis has decided not to remember his true self. He’s decided to keep on living in his delusional fantasies.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 01 Jan 2010
Notes left: 9
Last seen at: Paris, France
AuraTwilight:
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Yes, but there are a lot of problems with this explanation. One example being that Shattered Memories is the first time Cheryl ever meets Dr. Kauffman, but he exists in her SH1 Delusion, which would have to precede her Shattered Memories delusion because it results in the end of her fantasy. SH1 can't go before Shattered Memories OR after it.

I don’t agree. SH:SM never said it’s the first time Cheryl ever meets Dr. Kauffman. It only says it’s the first time she’s consulting him, the first time he’s treating her, her first therapy session with him... That’s a bit different. In the context of my theory, Cheryl is institutionalized in a mental hospital. She doesn’t need to consult every doctor in the hospital to know them (at least by sight, name, or even by reputation). I would add she never has a direct discussion with Kaufmann in SH1 (Harry does…). The only one she’s talking to directly, as Heather/Cheryl, is Vincent in SH3… I believe Cheryl (in the hospital) was very close to nurse Lisa, who was herself very close to Dr. Kaufmann. I’m sure Dr. Kaufmann might have caught Cheryl’s attention, one way or another. Seeing continuously Lisa and Kaufmann together might as well have helped Cheryl to make up stories in her mind including both of them…

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Er, no she didn't. It is canonically stated that Alessa created the Otherworld; what Helen experienced was mere delusion and insanity.

Then SH0rigins is contradicting the canon as we knew it. Because what Helen Grady experienced is a "mirror world", as specifically said in a game where the player accesses the Otherworld by passing through… mirrors! => Helen Grady was clearly experiencing the Otherworld. I’m quite sure of that.

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If Epolineum is a sedative, then of course it would possibly result in her experiencing catatonia.

Then again: "apparent" catatonia. :wink:

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The Otherworld does not have a goal, it's not a sentient being.

Of course, I know. That’s why I put "goal" in inverted commas. :wink: Let me rephrase it: the "goal" of the Otherworld, or more exactly the goal psychiatrists have in mind when they use hallucinogens on patients to trigger the Otherworld in their head…
And this goal, as I said, is to help patients to release repressed memories. And that’s indeed what every main character (Cheryl, James, Angela, Alex, Travis…) did during their trip throughout Silent Hill: they remembered their (true) past…

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Epolineum is a sedative; PTV is a hallucinogen. They're not the same nor are they related in any way.

Epolineum is a sedative that seems to trigger hallucinations in patients minds. Either it’s a sedative with hallucinogenic properties, or it’s a hallucinogen with sedative properties (hence the "apparent" catatonic state…). It may very well be an experimental hallucinogen used as a sedative, to make patients stand still when they get aggressive…

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White hair? What are you talking about, she's blonde.

Silent Wikipedia says her hair is "light blond, almost white".
http://silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Claudia_Wolf
And THIS is quite white in my eyes: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/silent/images/6/68/Claudiaconcept.jpg

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There's no indication that Cheryl Heather Mason of SH:SM is on any sort of sedative or drugs.

Indeed no there isn’t. And that’s my point. Because, yes, she’s not on drugs, but it is clearly stated she WAS. Kaufmann says it right from the start: "This will be different… no drug". Meaning she WAS on drug before that! Like during SH1 and SH3 for instance… :wink:

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She's taking VOLUNTARY therapy from a therapist (not a psychiatrist)

She shows her commitment to the process. But as much as mentally-ill patients still have the right to refuse medications, I guess they can also decide not to show up at their appointments with their therapist/psychiatrist… I don’t know really. As crazy as I can sound, I’ve never actually been in any mental hospital, LOL!

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Your analogy is incredibly weak.

That’s precisely why I said "on a side (and funnier) note". That was supposed to be more of a joke from the start…

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There was a thread on this subject: Those white flowers don't match the descriptions and illustrations from the book describing them in SH1, so they are not White Claudia, but some other plant.

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Oh come on, it doesn't even match the flowers from Homecoming. They're goddamned lilies.

Yeah, but I don’t think Cheryl or Alex are botanists or flower experts. They’re imagining white flowers, nothing more. They probably never saw a real white claudia flower in their lives. They can only imagine them! :wink:

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I'm still curious as to what kind of doctor would keep hopping their patients up on hallucinogens.

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What the hell kind of doctor shocks someone's brain and gives them hallucinogens to get them over schizophrenic delusions?

Real life psychiatrists from the 60’s and the 90’s… :wink:

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Cheryl Heather Mason is not in a Mental Institution, and neither does James Sunderland, who is seeing Dr. Kauffman for marriage counseling. Your premise has no basis.

Aside from the fact that Alex and Travis both end up in a very "mental hospitalesque" situation.
Now let’s talk about David Lynch’s movies (and we know how much David Lynch was an inspirational source for Team Silent…). I think the Silent Hill franchise is much close to the unofficial "trilogy" David Lynch made: "Lost Highway", "Mulholland Drive" and "INLAND EMPIRE". Beware: SPOILERS ahead!

=> We never really get to see Bill Pullman getting executed on the electrical chair while he is hallucinating the whole movie, but that’s actually the most common theory.
=> We never really get to see Naomi Watts committing suicide on her bed while she is hallucinating the whole movie, but that’s actually the most common theory.
=> We never really get to see Lost Girl doing whatever she is doing while she is having her multiple delusion, but…
All we can do is try to speculate from the small indirect glimpses of reality that are only partly insinuated here and there…

:arrow: I think the Silent Hill franchise works the same way, at least since SH2.
And the further we go on into the franchise, the more precise and acute the glimpses of reality tend to be. First SH0rigins’ "Bad Ending", then SHV:Homecoming’s "Hospital Ending", and now SH:SM whole game.

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Or more likely, the world freezes to protect the delusion, because otherwise Dr. Kauffman and/or Cheryl's sane sense of reason will take it apart.

Very good point. I agree and really like this explanation.

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But Malcolm was stabbed in the Mall, not the Amusement Park.

Yeah, but we’re not in a delusion here. We’re in a nightmare, a dream within the delusion. Nightmares aren’t really used to be completely rational… They generally are quite random indeed: a compilation of the most striking events/places/people you meet/witness/endure in the daylight.

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The same reason she whips out a knife,a shotgun, and a goddamned Uzi! She's trying to kill Heather with weapons Heather herself has. Unless you're suggesting that Cheryl has also hit people with pipes and shot them with guns.

Of course. But can someone give me a reason that would explain the importance or the meaning of her discovering she has a knife in her hand during her nightmare. That’s how the game begins after all, there must be a strong reason for that… Nightmares generally tend to be really significant and meaningful.

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I doubt it. If Cheryl had attempted or considered suicide, it definitely would've been in the game.

Naomi Watts is never seen committing suicide. Nobody around her ever speaks about suicide. But…
I’ve always thought SH games were supposed to be subtle. I love the franchise that way!
Anyway, her positive answer to Douglas’ comment ("maybe killing you here is the only way to end this nightmare") is enough for me to think Cheryl’s wouldn’t mind that much to kill herself…

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Er...Are you sure? We meet him in an unfinished building that could've been loads of things.

As sure as a name written on a map! :wink:

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Why does Cybil go from No-Nonsense, to Maternal, to No-Nonsense?

Maybe because Cheryl, as a good crazy girl, is unstable, as mentally-ill patients tend to be, LOL!

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What do you mean "insist so much?" It showed up once on the floor somewhere. You can play the game and miss it entirely.

Hey! I got it twice. Some fans even say they got it three times during the game! That’s actually the first time I see a newspaper article showing up more than once in a Silent Hill game...

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There's no time for her to be taking drugs; especially since she lives with her mother and not at some nuthouse.

Says who? Her delusion? Kaufmann never clearly states she lives with her mother. He only says she’s not the monster she makes her out to be. He could still say that to her even if she was not living with her mother anymore…

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Er...what? What makes you think she works at the Balkan?

Because, like Vincent in his SH3 office, Dahlia is first encountered at the Balkan night club. And SH1’s Dahlia was first encountered in the Balkan Church. This church was the place where she was "working". So I assume the same goes with the Balkan night club in SH:SM…
Kaufmann was first encountered at the hospital, as nurse Lisa was.
Vincent was first encountered in his mental health clinic office. (And Douglas at the mall, by the way… :wink: )
Michelle was first encountered at High School, Lisa near her ambulance, and Dahlia… at the night club. It could simply be the place where Harry first met her, but it could also be the very place where Dahlia is working…

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So why does she reverse so strongly in SM and SH1 (since you seem to place the SH1 delusion after SH3?)

Step by step, ups and downs… (and I don’t really place SH1 delusion after SH3)

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So why is Cheryl hallucinating a different death for her father, if the whole POINT of her delusions is to deny he ever died?

The same reason James is deciding to live with Maria (in the "Maria Ending") while he could have decided he never killed his wife, she never died, and he still lives with her.

As I said, she imagined this whole new death to explain why her father’s not here to help her. Douglas is. Not her father. She cannot completely erase that in her mind! Nor can she hide from such an overwhelming truth. There’s always a point when you cannot keep on pretending anymore. Her whole life is falling apart and her father is not here on that particular moment. She cannot deny that nor can she repair that. Nor even can she try to completely rewrite that to integrate her father into such a complex story (the mall, the stabbing, the escape, Douglas driving her to the hospital...). That would be such a long shot.
It’s clearly a lot more difficult thing to do than just making fake phone calls and imagining she's talking to her father…

:arrow: This "phone calls" thing might as well give us a fine explanation for Cheryl’s psychological need to shoplift: we know from SH:SM she spent a lot of time in that mall with her father when she was young. And as we can hear in SH3, she’s at the mall to buy his father things he requested. This "mall ritual" is probably one of her last "direct" (yet imaginary) bound with her father. She imagines she’s here for him, to purchase things he requested. It really sounds like a ritual thing to me and I think doing that helps her to keep her daddy alive… In a very specific way that doesn't necessarily require her father to be physically present in front of her. A very convenient way, I guess…

But stabbing that mall security officer definitely put an end to all of this!...

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2195
Last seen at: Koholint island
Quote:
-If the Bad Ending of SH0 is the one we're supposed to take to be true... why can we only unlock it on a second+ playthrough? Doesn't it make sense for the only ending you can get on a first playthrough to be the real ending?


Huh? I thought some people have gotten it on their first run-through?

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I'm still curious as to what kind of doctor would keep hopping their patients up on hallucinogens.

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What the hell kind of doctor shocks someone's brain and gives them hallucinogens to get them over schizophrenic delusions?

Real life psychiatrists from the 60’s and the 90’s… :wink:


This is right. Obviously, the shock treatment part probably wouldn't happen anywhere nowadays, but it used to. And as for hopping up a patient on pretty much ANY type of drug? Lolyes, yes it happens. I remember being put on freaking high dosages of Atavan at the age 13, for anxiety issues. Yes, I was stressed, but not THAT badly. The first afternoon I took some, I actually managed to fall asleep while standing up, in line at a Walmart. My daddy then took the pills and tossed them. =D

Then again at 15, I was put on Zoloft for depression. It wasn't until 17 that I was actually properly diagnosed--with OCD + mild anxiety disorder--and given a proper, smallest miligram dosage of a different pill as a diagnosis.

I said of all of that to say this: doctors--especially psychiatrists--are fond of using drugs as the sollution, point blank.

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Anyway, her positive answer to Douglas’ comment ("maybe killing you here is the only way to end this nightmare") is enough for me to think Cheryl’s wouldn’t mind that much to kill herself…


As unsure as I am about the suicidal tendencies, it somehow made me think of something else. While in the mall of SH3, you can go into a shop, and Heather will mention something about "too bad that ring I wanted isn't here now". And that's not at all the correct wording, but it's similar, kind of and anyway, it made me think of Cheryl's shoplifting tendencies in SHSM--to think she might've just taken the ring had it been there, no one else aroud 'cept for monsters. :razz:

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 25 Jan 2010
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Last seen at: Arkham Asylum
Wow, I loved your theory, outstanding job!



I thought of something to add to the Mall Stabbing Delusion. I read that they used Angela's model as the eaten thing. What if Cheryl had read the article/watched the news about the Orosco murder (Assuming it was after she was caught/sentenced and committed if everyone was hospitalized together.).

Seeing as she killed her father, that might have really pissed off Cheryl and she made sure that she "killed" her. Also, if you believe that Angela was sexually abused, that might have made Cheryl even angrier because Angela had something that Cheryl wanted.

Not to be abused, but that Angela was able to be with her father in that way, which throughout shattered memories, Cheryl displayed a lot hints that she wanted to sleep with him. So, she wanted to "punish" Angela in her mind for rejecting or taking for granted her father.


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Historical Society Historian
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Quote:
Thinking back, I'm pretty sure the office we meet Vincent in is the mental clinic. I remember thinking that might be significant, since he acted like it was his office, then completely forgetting about it when his connection with the Order became clearer.

I'm close-by in my "no weapons" Extreme playthrough, so I'll investigate.


Yea, I'm pretty sure it was just some room in an unfinished building; either way, it's not his office, he doesn't even work and live there.

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It could be a false rumor, as much as it could be a legitimate leak. We’ll never know for sure… I for one find this rumor a little bit too elaborate to be completely made out of nowhere. But that’s not a proof of anything. We know how secretive Team Silent was about their projects though. Masashi Tsuboyama sure had to debunk this rumor anyway. But once again, that doesn’t mean anything... I want to believe this rumor is true…


No disrespect, FrenchDoctor, but you need to spend more time on the internet if you think a rumor being elaborate hints that it might be true, lol :P I think the most likely scenario is that Climax (who browses Silent Hill fansites and even thanks this forum in the credits) found the rumor, and decided to make a game based on it.

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I don’t really get the difference, to be honest. And that’s the first time I hear of a Otherside… But whichever name you choose, Otherworld, Otherside or even "Mirror world" (notes you can find in SH0rigins refer to an "other world" and a "mirror world"), the description of this "mirror world" reminded me a lot of the Otherworld. Especially in a game where we see Travis accessing the Otherworld through… mirrors!!!


The consensus seems to be that the Otherside is just normal, everyday insanity and craziness, and the Otherworld is the power of Silent Hill that makes it come true. Bear in mind that when Travis was a child, he was exposed to Helen's violent tendencies and her rants of delusions. I theorize that her "Devil child" comments contributed to his self-worth issues, and his memory of her delusions was used by Alessa for convenience. Of course Travis can reasonably expect a supernatural mirror world here, even if his mother never actually saw it and was just making it up.

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Well, we don’t know what Epolineum really is. Just that it’s used as a sedative. But it could very well be a particular hallucinogen used as a sedative, since it seems to plunge patients in catatonic states. Or should I say, as it IS PRECISELY stated, "in an apparent catatonic state". Wink
Overuse of sedatives plunges patients in full catatonic states. Not just "apparent". Apparent catatonic states may instead be the (well-known) side effect of hallucinogens. It’s called an "excited catatonic state", and can be caused by hallucinogens…
So I’d say Epolineum could really be a hallucinogen:


I don't know how it is in France, FrenchDoctor, but over on the other side of the Atlantic, it's generally illegal to give hallucinogens to mental health patients.

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Indeed no there isn’t. And that’s my point. Because, yes, she’s not on drugs, but it is clearly stated she WAS. Kaufmann says it right from the start: "This will be different… no drug". Meaning she WAS on drug before that! Like during SH1 and SH3 for instance…


No, that doesn't mean anything. His statement doesn't mean Cheryl was on drugs with other therapists, only that he won't put her on it. He's telling her that he uses a relaxed, comfortable, non-standard form of therapy. Even if she was on drugs, she'd probably have been given like...prozac. A mere therapist doesn't have the legal authority to hand out hallucinogens and sedatives.

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I don’t agree. SH:SM never said it’s the first time Cheryl ever meets Dr. Kauffman. It only says it’s the first time she’s consulting him, the first time he’s treating her, her first therapy session with him... That’s a bit different. In the context of my theory, Cheryl is institutionalized in a mental hospital. She doesn’t need to consult every doctor in the hospital to know them (at least by sight, name, or even by reputation). I would add she never has a direct discussion with Kaufmann in SH1 (Harry does…). The only one she’s talking to directly, as Heather/Cheryl, is Vincent in SH3… I believe Cheryl (in the hospital) was very close to nurse Lisa, who was herself very close to Dr. Kaufmann. I’m sure Dr. Kaufmann might have caught Cheryl’s attention, one way or another. Seeing continuously Lisa and Kaufmann together might as well have helped Cheryl to make up stories in her mind including both of them…


Dr. Kauffman introduces himself by name in the beginning; either way, she doesn't have his name to draw upon in a previous delusion; nor is Dr. K even a Mental Hospital psychiatrist. He's a voluntary visitation therapist in a walk-in clinic; your theory demands that all these characters are nutjobs locked up in a hospital.

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Then SH0rigins is contradicting the canon as we knew it. Because what Helen Grady experienced is a "mirror world", as specifically said in a game where the player accesses the Otherworld by passing through… mirrors! => Helen Grady was clearly experiencing the Otherworld. I’m quite sure of that.


This isn't the case; her experiencing a mirror world doesn't really mean shit, because there's no indication of supernatural activity around her. Newsflash, psychos all over the world fantasize of being privy to special magical worlds, Helen's no different, and Travis is the only character to use mirrors in the games, and that's probably only because he heard his mother's delusions and used it in his own experience.

Besides, if her vision of the Otherworld is real, why are there "mirror people" in this other world telling her to kill her son? Next you'll tell me Travis is the anti-christ or something.

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Of course, I know. That’s why I put "goal" in inverted commas. Wink Let me rephrase it: the "goal" of the Otherworld, or more exactly the goal psychiatrists have in mind when they use hallucinogens on patients to trigger the Otherworld in their head…
And this goal, as I said, is to help patients to release repressed memories. And that’s indeed what every main character (Cheryl, James, Angela, Alex, Travis…) did during their trip throughout Silent Hill: they remembered their (true) past…


So the strategy of these doctors is to trade one delusion for another? Wonderful progress they're making. :roll:

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Epolineum is a sedative that seems to trigger hallucinations in patients minds. Either it’s a sedative with hallucinogenic properties, or it’s a hallucinogen with sedative properties (hence the "apparent" catatonic state…). It may very well be an experimental hallucinogen used as a sedative, to make patients stand still when they get aggressive…


Your only basis for this conclusion is that Helen hallucinates when given it, but she hallucinates even when she's not on the stuff. There's no real difference! It's apparent only effect is to keep her from getting violent.

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She shows her commitment to the process. But as much as mentally-ill patients still have the right to refuse medications, I guess they can also decide not to show up at their appointments with their therapist/psychiatrist… I don’t know really. As crazy as I can sound, I’ve never actually been in any mental hospital, LOL!


That's because the Lighthouse Clinic isn't a mental hospital; it's a CLINIC. Cheryl Heather Mason isn't a patient kept in the custody of a mental hospital, she's free to go to work, live her life, do what she wants apparently, but she made the voluntary commitment to seek treatment.

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Yeah, but I don’t think Cheryl or Alex are botanists or flower experts. They’re imagining white flowers, nothing more. They probably never saw a real white claudia flower in their lives. They can only imagine them!


Oh, come now. If you're not even going to try to link up the information to be consistent, and just handwave everything away with mental illness, then fuck it: None of the characters are real, this is all a book series being written by Ernest Baldwin due to the grief of losing his daughter, Amy. Maria metaphorically hints at it with her "Hemingway?" comment, so prove me wrong.

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Real life psychiatrists from the 60’s and the 90’s…


As far as I'm aware, giving hallucinogens to delusional patients isn't legal, nor is it standard practice.

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Aside from the fact that Alex and Travis both end up in a very "mental hospitalesque" situation.


Well, yea, as possible endings and because mental institutions are part of their character backrounds even in the Supernatural Narrative. That's not really a springboard to suggest that all the characters are connected to mental institutions.

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Yeah, but we’re not in a delusion here. We’re in a nightmare, a dream within the delusion. Nightmares aren’t really used to be completely rational… They generally are quite random indeed: a compilation of the most striking events/places/people you meet/witness/endure in the daylight.


The same can be said of the delusions of crazy people. The human mind is imaginative, but not to the degree that insane people can create perfectly consistent, distinct delusions of such richness, and then have them all connect up to each other in the way the games do with almost little to no plotholes. Hell, the plot holes and inconsistencies in Shattered Memories' delusional narrative is the point.

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Says who? Her delusion? Kaufmann never clearly states she lives with her mother. He only says she’s not the monster she makes her out to be. He could still say that to her even if she was not living with her mother anymore…


The aspects of the truth sneaking through the delusion do, yea, and Dahlia comes to pick her up and walk her home in some variations of the game's ending. If this is incorrect, then we might as well say James never killed Mary because it was the delusion that told him this.

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Because, like Vincent in his SH3 office, Dahlia is first encountered at the Balkan night club. And SH1’s Dahlia was first encountered in the Balkan Church. This church was the place where she was "working". So I assume the same goes with the Balkan night club in SH:SM…
Kaufmann was first encountered at the hospital, as nurse Lisa was.
Vincent was first encountered in his mental health clinic office. (And Douglas at the mall, by the way… Wink )
Michelle was first encountered at High School, Lisa near her ambulance, and Dahlia… at the night club. It could simply be the place where Harry first met her, but it could also be the very place where Dahlia is working…


SH1 Dahlia didn't work at the Balkan Church, she was just using the bell to summon him (it's not even a church of her religion!) Similarly, SM Dahlia is there on a date with Harry, according to her; Michelle is the one who works there as a singer and a drink mixer.

Your connections for this theory are pretty damn weak, if this is your method of making conclusions.

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Step by step, ups and downs… (and I don’t really place SH1 delusion after SH3)


But you do! During her SH3 delusion, you say she meets Cybil as she drives by, and that this was the basis for her inclusion in the SH1 delusion as a parallel to the opening scene. Therefore, SH1's delusion needs to come after Cheryl invents SH3.

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The same reason James is deciding to live with Maria (in the "Maria Ending") while he could have decided he never killed his wife, she never died, and he still lives with her.


How is deciding to deny reality and live with a hot hooker wife at all comparable to contradicting the reason you're hallucinating in the first place and killing your father?

Better idea: Claudia kills Harry. White Claudia kills the illusion of Harry in Cheryl's mind.

That works better, right?

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As I said, she imagined this whole new death to explain why her father’s not here to help her. Douglas is. Not her father. She cannot completely erase that in her mind! Nor can she hide from such an overwhelming truth. There’s always a point when you cannot keep on pretending anymore. Her whole life is falling apart and her father is not here on that particular moment. She cannot deny that nor can she repair that. Nor even can she try to completely rewrite that to integrate her father into such a complex story (the mall, the stabbing, the escape, Douglas driving her to the hospital...). That would be such a long shot.
It’s clearly a lot more difficult thing to do than just making fake phone calls and imagining she's talking to her father…


Pssh, that's a weak excuse. She could've easily created like, a note in that journal of Harry's, to the effect of "Claudia tried to kill me, and I had to escape. Cheryl, I love you. I'll be waiting in Silent Hill" or whatever.

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Huh? I thought some people have gotten it on their first run-through?


No, it's impossible to get it the first run.

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This is right. Obviously, the shock treatment part probably wouldn't happen anywhere nowadays, but it used to. And as for hopping up a patient on pretty much ANY type of drug? Lolyes, yes it happens. I remember being put on freaking high dosages of Atavan at the age 13, for anxiety issues. Yes, I was stressed, but not THAT badly. The first afternoon I took some, I actually managed to fall asleep while standing up, in line at a Walmart. My daddy then took the pills and tossed them. =D

Then again at 15, I was put on Zoloft for depression. It wasn't until 17 that I was actually properly diagnosed--with OCD + mild anxiety disorder--and given a proper, smallest miligram dosage of a different pill as a diagnosis.

I said of all of that to say this: doctors--especially psychiatrists--are fond of using drugs as the sollution, point blank.


Er...none of those drugs are hallucinogens, though, Cascade. That's TOTALLY different. I can't imagine what kind of doctor would treat a hallucinating patient by giving them a drug that makes them hallucinate even more.

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Of course. But can someone give me a reason that would explain the importance or the meaning of her discovering she has a knife in her hand during her nightmare. That’s how the game begins after all, there must be a strong reason for that… Nightmares generally tend to be really significant and meaningful.


Well, Heather always kept a knife or something on her in self defense due to the Order, but I imagine dreamt up with all the weaponry on her (including a sub machinegun and shit!) because her subconscious was telling her, "You're going to need to use this stuff, there's monsters everywhere."

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Naomi Watts is never seen committing suicide. Nobody around her ever speaks about suicide. But…
I’ve always thought SH games were supposed to be subtle. I love the franchise that way!
Anyway, her positive answer to Douglas’ comment ("maybe killing you here is the only way to end this nightmare") is enough for me to think Cheryl’s wouldn’t mind that much to kill herself…


Shattered Memories makes a point to show just about every bad thing in Cheryl's life in the form of Echoes and whatnot. If she had entertained suicidal thoughts, I imagine there would be some sort of Echo Photo or Memento representing this.

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I thought of something to add to the Mall Stabbing Delusion. I read that they used Angela's model as the eaten thing. What if Cheryl had read the article/watched the news about the Orosco murder (Assuming it was after she was caught/sentenced and committed if everyone was hospitalized together.).

Seeing as she killed her father, that might have really pissed off Cheryl and she made sure that she "killed" her. Also, if you believe that Angela was sexually abused, that might have made Cheryl even angrier because Angela had something that Cheryl wanted.

Not to be abused, but that Angela was able to be with her father in that way, which throughout shattered memories, Cheryl displayed a lot hints that she wanted to sleep with him. So, she wanted to "punish" Angela in her mind for rejecting or taking for granted her father.


Thanks for ruining that scene of the game for me FOREVER, lol!

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Huh? I thought some people have gotten it on their first run-through?


Every walkthrough and game site I can find state that it is second+ playthrough only.

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I don’t really get the difference, to be honest. And that’s the first time I hear of a Otherside… But whichever name you choose, Otherworld, Otherside or even "Mirror world" (notes you can find in SH0rigins refer to an "other world" and a "mirror world"), the description of this "mirror world" reminded me a lot of the Otherworld. Especially in a game where we see Travis accessing the Otherworld through… mirrors!!!


I believe it's mentioned in Lost Memories, and maybe even in SH3, though I admit I'm not completely sure about it. However, Helen never physically visits the Otherworld; she simply goes into a catatonic state and then says she was in a mirror world. She's insane, visiting the world in her mind; as far as we know, the other protagonists physically visit the Otherworld.


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Right, even though in one version of the 911 calls the man reporting the stabbing says Malcolm is dead (of course then he could have been mistaken as well…).


I do believe he says "I think he's dead".

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My Bestsellers Clerk
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No Matter what, if you believe the theory or not, She has the proof to back it up and the arguments against it for the most part are almost opinion or can take what is in it anyway you want. Loved to read that and I'm behind it. Easily the most well thought out and put together theories. But that's what makes Silent Hill so fascinating and great. Everything can be taken different ways.


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Jecht wrote:
No Matter what, if you believe the theory or not, She has the proof to back it up and the arguments against it for the most part are almost opinion or can take what is in it anyway you want. Loved to read that and I'm behind it. Easily the most well thought out and put together theories. But that's what makes Silent Hill so fascinating and great. Everything can be taken different ways.


Some proof, but some things have holes in them.





Also, I believe it was in this thread that someone said it's never stated that Dahlia lives with Cheryl. It's not stated, but it's somewhat hinted at; in some endings, Dahlia meets Cheryl outside of therapy.

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AuraTwilight wrote:
Yea, I'm pretty sure it was just some room in an unfinished building; either way, it's not his office, he doesn't even work and live there.

Waitasec, "unfinished?"

I think you're confusing the Hilltop Center with the unfinished building you access it from. The Hilltop Center, where this Green Ridge clinic is located, doesn't look unfinished. At all.

When Heather meets Vincent, he's seated at the desk, like he owns the place. Of course, he's expecting her specifically, but why there? Why in the location of the Green Ridge mental clinic? That is, after all, exactly where the map places this location (I checked).

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Just Passing Through
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Wow, that was amazing.
Maybe you should be rewrite Lost Memories XD

Except, Eileen thanked the Infant Walter because he stopped his adult self from killing her, so it resulted in only her getting badly injured.

But, other than that, and the other things that everyone else has pointed out, this is absolutely awesome. :mrgreen:


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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I really enjoyed reading this, though I'm not sure if I completely buy it or not. A couple of quick notes though...

It's pretty fair to conclude that Cheryl has been to other therapists, Dr. Kaufman says as much. And while a "mere therapist" doesn't have the authority to hand out drugs, a psychiatrist does- Dr. Kaufman is a psychiatrist. A psychologist is what, I assume, is meant by "mere therapist," but therapist can be used to refer to either one. Considering the fact that Kaufman refers to them as the "other therapists," I don't find it a stretch to conclude that Cheryl has been to other psychiatrists, doctors who can and do prescribe drugs. It's also not uncommon for a doctor to work or have privileges in multiple facilities.

We know two things about epolineum.. it is a sedative and likely has undesirable side effects. After high doses Mrs. Grady's idea of the mirror world increased, she remembered attacking Travis, and seemed proud of such. The doctor wonders if such is a side effect of the epolineum. If it is a sedative which occasionally has hallucinatory effects, that does not mean it is a drug intended to induce them. If you're giving it as a sedative to patients already experiencing hallucinations and false realities, detecting that side effect would become very difficult. In that case, in the patients' nightmares its image could easily be corrupted to what we know colloquially as "white claudia." Plenty of real anti-depressants can cause suicidal urges, but they are still widely prescribed. If we go with the idea that epolineum is a commonly used sedative then you have less than 10 patients suffering the negative side effects.

Also, in response to the comments that such a practice would be illegal... burning little girls alive and keeping them hidden in hospital basements while bribing nurses to keep quiet with drugs is also illegal, but if we go with the idea that Silent Hill happened then we just have to accept that people, even doctors, do illegal things sometimes.

AuraTwilight wrote:
Thanks for ruining that scene of the game for me FOREVER, lol!

This. D:


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Waitasec, "unfinished?"

I think you're confusing the Hilltop Center with the unfinished building you access it from. The Hilltop Center, where this Green Ridge clinic is located, doesn't look unfinished. At all.

When Heather meets Vincent, he's seated at the desk, like he owns the place. Of course, he's expecting her specifically, but why there? Why in the location of the Green Ridge mental clinic? That is, after all, exactly where the map places this location (I checked).


Oh dur, I totally forgot the SH2-esque building cross. Ah well, maybe he was just doing some reading there, like in the library. He tends to be fascinated by the Otherworld, so studying psychology is wholly appropriate to Vincent's character without invoking this Mental Institution theory.

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We know two things about epolineum.. it is a sedative and likely has undesirable side effects. After high doses Mrs. Grady's idea of the mirror world increased, she remembered attacking Travis, and seemed proud of such. The doctor wonders if such is a side effect of the epolineum. If it is a sedative which occasionally has hallucinatory effects, that does not mean it is a drug intended to induce them. If you're giving it as a sedative to patients already experiencing hallucinations and false realities, detecting that side effect would become very difficult. In that case, in the patients' nightmares its image could easily be corrupted to what we know colloquially as "white claudia." Plenty of real anti-depressants can cause suicidal urges, but they are still widely prescribed. If we go with the idea that epolineum is a commonly used sedative then you have less than 10 patients suffering the negative side effects.


Fine, but this doesn't change the fact that we have a genuine assload of mental patients who are all manifesting near-identical side effects to the same drugs to the point of many of them being addicted to it or villifying it. On top of that, we have this apparent irresponsibility of letting all these patients keep making prolonged, regular contact with each other where they drag each other down deeper and deeper into insanity and delusion; Folie a Deux is commonly emergent in non-confined individuals, often before they're diagnosed.

Quote:
Also, in response to the comments that such a practice would be illegal... burning little girls alive and keeping them hidden in hospital basements while bribing nurses to keep quiet with drugs is also illegal, but if we go with the idea that Silent Hill happened then we just have to accept that people, even doctors, do illegal things sometimes.


You can't seriously compare doctors with a genuine desire to help these people pumping them full of dangerous drugs to an evil satanic cult making profits off of a drug ring and exploiting magically endowed girls so that they can harness her power to summon the God/Devil they worship and take over the world. You might as well have compared my argument to Hitler.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Of course not, my insinuation is that it's a possibility that the doctors may not have a genuine desire to help these people and may be using them for experimental purposes. Origins specifically has a couple notes that insinuate that the patients are not being treated properly. The Iron Lung being "accidentally" overloaded resulting in patient deaths, the manner in which the "magpies" are forced to spit up the basement keys, and while not directly related to the patients the Christie incident. My point is, oh that's illegal, isn't enough, not in a horror game especially.


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Yea, but the mistreatment of the Origins doctors is in the Supernatural Narrative, where they're working for an evil cult, and in the Delusional Narrative, you have to keep in mind that delusional mental patients commonly demonize their doctors and guardians out of paranoia.

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Tamshend wrote:
Wow, that was amazing.
Maybe you should be rewrite Lost Memories XD

Except, Eileen thanked the Infant Walter because he stopped his adult self from killing her, so it resulted in only her getting badly injured.

But, other than that, and the other things that everyone else has pointed out, this is absolutely awesome. :mrgreen:


Is it me, or is that avatar waaay oversized?

And I don't think that Lose Memories could be re-wrote, because the official staff who knew everything about the symbolism at works wrote it, and us, members on a fan forum, couldn't possibly do that. But maybe we could, because we all seem to over-analyze everything.


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Just Passing Through
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I'm really impressed with how well thought out this is. I tried to work out something similar, though in not even close to this amount of detail and didn't even try to consider games beyong SH1-3.

My own problem, and it's the same here, is Dr.Kaufmann's role in SH1. Yes, it's technically possible that Cheryl knew who he was or encountered him before but Dr.K's dialogue in SM really implies a first meeting and certainly a first session with her. I see nothing in there that could point to her knowing him other than simply having to make that leap so the theory will work. He got a pretty major role in SH1. A chance meeting or just knowing who he is doesn't explain that.

And, while there is definitely implication of previous therapy attempts with Cheryl that would likely have included psychiatrists who would have prescribed meds, I'm not getting any hints that she has been confined to a mental institution at any point. The implication at the start of SM ("that would have been a breakthrough before") is that there was a serious lack of progress with Cheryl. But this was in a clinic she could leave and meet her mother after a session. Again, it's possible but it seems to require a leap that we're not given.

I also wonder about Michelle's absence in any game prior to SM.

But, nonetheless, this is a really well put together theory and there is a huge amount of it that I totally subscribe to anyway - certainly the drug paranoia which comes totally out of left-field in SH1 in such a ridiculous way in that Cybill/Harry conversation in the Antique Store that it makes much more sense to be part of a delusion than actually anything real people would ever say, and the transformation of White Claudia to Claudia in SH3, drug paranoia made flesh and that continues with Lisa's death in SM.

Actually there's loads here I could buy into and I really like it.

Well done!


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Subway Guard
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It's a decent theory. Full of holes that you argue away as being mental delusion at their mention, but not too shabby nonetheless. I don't subscribe to it; there are too many leaps of faith that I'm not willing to make. The principle of Occam's Razor, by definition makes more sense. Rather than stretching for things so far, I follow the simplest line of logic.

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Yea, but the mistreatment of the Origins doctors is in the Supernatural Narrative, where they're working for an evil cult, and in the Delusional Narrative, you have to keep in mind that delusional mental patients commonly demonize their doctors and guardians out of paranoia.


Let's not forget about Homecoming, where the doctors in Alchemilla, who were not necessarily under the influence of any cult (the cult was almost completely stamped out at that time, and remained so until Margaret started rousing them again justify her own fear of God) were using heavy and unsafe amounts and strengths of shock therapy on Alex too. It seemed they got no results until they went beyond guideline standards of safety, according to the memos.

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Let's not forget about Homecoming, where the doctors in Alchemilla, who were not necessarily under the influence of any cult (the cult was almost completely stamped out at that time, and remained so until Margaret started rousing them again justify her own fear of God) were using heavy and unsafe amounts and strengths of shock therapy on Alex too. It seemed they got no results until they went beyond guideline standards of safety, according to the memos.


Yea, but by that time I'm sure the damage done to the hospital staff has been done. If you teach people you employ horrible work ethic, they'll pass it down.

Regardless, I'm not entirely convinced that the hospital's treatment of Alex is real, all else considering, since it doesn't seem we see the reality of it even in the Hospital ending. But that's just me.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Didn't they re-use his SH1 model? It might just be out of laziness, or perhaps to hide the gore.

No, they did not. It would've been way too lo-res for SH3. It does look a lot like James, though the face shape is a bit different...

Quote:
Strangely enough, we NEVER see Harry’s face. Why? One might guess that’s because developers didn’t want to lose time shaping a face for such a small character(!). Wrong: they actually shaped it (you can indeed see it, only by tricking the camera angle though...)..

Incidentally, you can't use a camhack there because it's in a cutscene. You can view it with the model viewer. (pics). I think it's more that they wanted it to be more mysterious, which is also why I think they left out the Harry/Heather photo (that, and it didn't look right for sh3 graphics).

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