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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 03 Sep 2009
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Also, before the original game even begins, we see a cutscene of a woman who does not resemble SM!

Harry's wife (from SH1 intro) died when Cheryl was 3 years old.

Quote:
In SM, Cheryl is his biological daughter.

Why do you so sure? Harry and his second wife don't tell Cheryl the truth about her birth.
You are not confused that the family video records represent a girl aged 6-7 years? Where is the photos of happy parents from maternity home?

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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She physically resembles both of them, Harry was married to Dahlia before Cheryl was born, and the concept of being adopted, born out of wedlock, or a stepchild would've come up since it'd probably be a major aspect of Cheryl's complex.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
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X-rust wrote:
Quote:
So Heather goes into therapy...

Not Heather.
Cheryl in Shattered Memories - it's a Cheryl from original Silent Hill, after 18 years.
SH3 and SHSM run in parallel:
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Except that there is no Cheryl at the end of Silent Hill [In the bad endings at least]. And depending on which bad ending you get the first game becomes an infinite loop. The only thing to break this is the inclusion of the Good Ending, and we all know this leads to Silent Hill 3- thereby severing any continuity ties to Shattered Memories.

The Bad Endings of Silent Hill lead to either Harry being caught up in an infinite loop, or leaving Silent Hill empty handed. There is no way Cheryl can even exist in that sort of time line.

If that's not what you were implying then I apologize.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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Actually, I think the bad ending could lend itself very well as a lead-in to Shattered Memories, because everything that actually happens in the scenario leading to it can be dismissed as a dying man's fever dreams. In this scenario, it is possible that the Otherworld does not exist at all. Cheryl may still be safe at home. Dahlia may still be his wife, and if an acrimonious separation has just happened, it could make sense that she is represented in his dreams as reprehensibly evil. It would take some work to shoe-horn in the secondary characters, admittedly, but I'm sure it could be done. I might even try it.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
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You make a good point actually. Never thought about it that way. You might have to explain it a bit better though since I can't wrap my head completely around it.

But if I may...
Dahlia 1 (Silent Hill 1) is just a place holder for Dahlia 2 (Shattered Memories). Am I getting that right? If that's true, then where does that place Origins? The immolation and subsequent soul split has happened by the time Harry 1 arrives in Silent Hill. It seems for this theory to work, you have to erase Origins from the equation. If the events of the first game are just a dream, then how does Origins happen when Harry hadn't even been around to witness these events?


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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X-rust wrote:
Quote:
Also, before the original game even begins, we see a cutscene of a woman who does not resemble SM!

Harry's wife (from SH1 intro) died when Cheryl was 3 years old.

Quote:
In SM, Cheryl is his biological daughter.

Why do you so sure? Harry and his second wife don't tell Cheryl the truth about her birth.
You are not confused that the family video records represent a girl aged 6-7 years? Where is the photos of happy parents from maternity home?



I'm not saying anything about when original!Mrs. Mason died. I'm saying that the fact is that we see, before all the Silent Hill shenanigans began--before Harry even goes into the town--a woman who looks nothing like SM!Dahlia and who doesn't resemble Cheryl, not to mention the fact that we're literally watching them find her.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
Trauma_ wrote:
If the events of the first game are just a dream, then how does Origins happen when Harry hadn't even been around to witness these events?

I think in that scenario the events of Origins would be part of Heather's elaborate fantasy as well. Like Dr. Kaufmann said in the UFO-Ending of SM, she had also presented him with a story about demons and cults. Thus it is entire possible that in an earlier session she told him the story of how in her dreams she was actually only Dahlia's daughter and was mentally abused by her into becoming the mother of God and how Harry tried to rescue her. Travis would actually fit quite nicely into this, as he keeps up her narrative of a strong masculine figure rescuing her from the evil female.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
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chounokoe wrote:
Trauma_ wrote:
If the events of the first game are just a dream, then how does Origins happen when Harry hadn't even been around to witness these events?

I think in that scenario the events of Origins would be part of Heather's elaborate fantasy as well. Like Dr. Kaufmann said in the UFO-Ending of SM, she had also presented him with a story about demons and cults. Thus it is entire possible that in an earlier session she told him the story of how in her dreams she was actually only Dahlia's daughter and was mentally abused by her into becoming the mother of God and how Harry tried to rescue her. Travis would actually fit quite nicely into this, as he keeps up her narrative of a strong masculine figure rescuing her from the evil female.

That wouldn't work though if Shattered Memories allegedly starts with the bad ending.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
You could assert that Origins' Bad ending is canon and that he too hallucinated everything.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Sep 2012
Notes left: 86
Last seen at: In Walter Sullivan's mind
chounokoe wrote:
Trauma_ wrote:
If the events of the first game are just a dream, then how does Origins happen when Harry hadn't even been around to witness these events?

I think in that scenario the events of Origins would be part of Heather's elaborate fantasy as well. Like Dr. Kaufmann said in the UFO-Ending of SM, she had also presented him with a story about demons and cults. Thus it is entire possible that in an earlier session she told him the story of how in her dreams she was actually only Dahlia's daughter and was mentally abused by her into becoming the mother of God and how Harry tried to rescue her. Travis would actually fit quite nicely into this, as he keeps up her narrative of a strong masculine figure rescuing her from the evil female.


in a story, where everything is back words and reality trumps fantasy, could it be possible that the UFO ending - which is normally a joke - IS the official proposed ending in this game? ...Doctor Kaufman is NOT alive and one of the aliens from the rest of the UFO endings is posing as him to convince Cheryl that it all never really happened?

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
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the konami code wrote:
chounokoe wrote:
Trauma_ wrote:
If the events of the first game are just a dream, then how does Origins happen when Harry hadn't even been around to witness these events?

I think in that scenario the events of Origins would be part of Heather's elaborate fantasy as well. Like Dr. Kaufmann said in the UFO-Ending of SM, she had also presented him with a story about demons and cults. Thus it is entire possible that in an earlier session she told him the story of how in her dreams she was actually only Dahlia's daughter and was mentally abused by her into becoming the mother of God and how Harry tried to rescue her. Travis would actually fit quite nicely into this, as he keeps up her narrative of a strong masculine figure rescuing her from the evil female.


in a story, where everything is back words and reality trumps fantasy, could it be possible that the UFO ending - which is normally a joke - IS the official proposed ending in this game? ...Doctor Kaufman is NOT alive and one of the aliens from the rest of the UFO endings is posing as him to convince Cheryl that it all never really happened?

"Anything can happen" is not a valid explanation.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2007
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Ryantology wrote:
You could assert that Origins' Bad ending is canon and that he too hallucinated everything.

And that's the problem I see with this theory, even though I can see a sort of elegance in it. If everything is self-contained, disconnected hallucinations among people who never really meet, then the relevance of connecting it chronologically, along those lines, becomes rather moot.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
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^As weak as it sounds even to my own ears; collective subconscious argument?

I'm one of those people that actually hated SM as a game. I respect it and accept it for the things it contributed to the series as a whole, but I just didn't personally like it in it's own right. So as far as people like me are concerned, anything that makes SM more palatable is always welcomed with open arms. Yes, in the strictest definition this IS stretching a bit, but what's the harm? At least it'll bring up some original debates that don't relate to the movie or Downpour.

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
Kenji wrote:
Ryantology wrote:
You could assert that Origins' Bad ending is canon and that he too hallucinated everything.

And that's the problem I see with this theory, even though I can see a sort of elegance in it. If everything is self-contained, disconnected hallucinations among people who never really meet, then the relevance of connecting it chronologically, along those lines, becomes rather moot.


I agree, entirely, but for me, this exercise is less about legitimate theory than it is about the fun of seeing if an alternate interpretation is possible without sounding completely ridiculous.

The one major flaw with assuming that both Origins and the first Silent Hill are independent hallucinations is how they inexplicably share common characters.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Sep 2012
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Last seen at: In Walter Sullivan's mind
Trauma_ wrote:
the konami code wrote:
in a story, where everything is back words and reality trumps fantasy, could it be possible that the UFO ending - which is normally a joke - IS the official proposed ending in this game? ...Doctor Kaufman is NOT alive and one of the aliens from the rest of the UFO endings is posing as him to convince Cheryl that it all never really happened?

"Anything can happen" is not a valid explanation.


I didn't say "anything can happen", but SM does seem to be more about presenting a jumble of disjointed events/characters that somehow lead to one simple PLAUSIBLE truth - Harry Mason died in the car crash. The other games gradually pull the protagonist from reality into a surreal nightmare world which equally seems to tie into the bizarre ending. I don't know. It's hard to explain.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
Notes left: 494
Ryantology wrote:
Kenji wrote:
Ryantology wrote:
You could assert that Origins' Bad ending is canon and that he too hallucinated everything.

And that's the problem I see with this theory, even though I can see a sort of elegance in it. If everything is self-contained, disconnected hallucinations among people who never really meet, then the relevance of connecting it chronologically, along those lines, becomes rather moot.


I agree, entirely, but for me, this exercise is less about legitimate theory than it is about the fun of seeing if an alternate interpretation is possible without sounding completely ridiculous.

The one major flaw with assuming that both Origins and the first Silent Hill are independent hallucinations is how they inexplicably share common characters.

The more I think about the "dying fever dreams" theory, the more I love it, and the more I dislike Origins. It could work on the condition that the series were to split off into different tangents (rather than an alternate universe altogether) like the Zelda series had (and that Origins had never existed). It's also an interesting idea for future installments if they can get rid of the cult once and for all.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Of course, for it to work, the characters in Shattered Memories would be closer to those in Harry's real life, considering the human brains tendency to fuck people in 5 directions at once while they're dying.

These would simply be the same events interpreted from 2 different (and equally skewed) perspectives.

-(IRL) Dahlia could be represented by an insane cult leader hellbent on world destruction. It was shown in Shattered Memories that the divorce was messy no matter what, and most divorces generally end in either party antagonizing the other.

-The burning of Alessa could be representative of the effect that Dahlia's and Harry's divorce had on Cheryl.

-It's not told whether or not Harry and Dahlia actually went for marriage counseling, however it could be likely.(There's no proof either way however, so this is moot for now). It's not a stretch to think that (IRL) Kaufman was their family psychiatrist. (SH1) Kaufman working in cahoots with (SH1) Dahlia could be representative of the some sort of (perceived) favoritism towards (IRL) Dahlia on (IRL) Kaufman's part, and Harry harboring some resentment from that.

-Around the end of Silent Hill-Shattered Memories, Kaufman says something along the lines of "But you're alive, your mother is alive. She's not the monster you make her out to be". Which would reinforce my earlier point a bit.


That's all I've got for now but I'm sure I could find a use for the other characters in SM. Would be a bit tricky to figure out how Cybill Bennet, and Harry's dead wife from Silent Hill 1 would fit into the equation however.

Another reason to say fuck Origins...


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