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Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 28 Sep 2012
by X-rust
Also, before the original game even begins, we see a cutscene of a woman who does not resemble SM!
Harry's wife (from SH1 intro) died when Cheryl was 3 years old.
In SM, Cheryl is his biological daughter.
Why do you so sure? Harry and his second wife don't tell Cheryl the truth about her birth.
You are not confused that the family video records represent a girl aged 6-7 years? Where is the photos of happy parents from maternity home?
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 28 Sep 2012
by AuraTwilight
She physically resembles both of them, Harry was married to Dahlia before Cheryl was born, and the concept of being adopted, born out of wedlock, or a stepchild would've come up since it'd probably be a major aspect of Cheryl's complex.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 28 Sep 2012
by Trauma_
X-rust wrote:So Heather goes into therapy...
Not Heather.
Cheryl in Shattered Memories - it's a Cheryl from original Silent Hill, after 18 years.
SH3 and SHSM run in parallel:
Except that there
is no Cheryl at the end of
Silent Hill [In the bad endings at least]. And depending on which bad ending you get the first game becomes an infinite loop. The only thing to break this is the inclusion of the Good Ending, and we all know this leads to
Silent Hill 3- thereby severing any continuity ties to
Shattered Memories.
The Bad Endings of
Silent Hill lead to either Harry being caught up in an infinite loop, or leaving Silent Hill empty handed. There is no way Cheryl can even exist in that sort of time line.
If that's not what you were implying then I apologize.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 28 Sep 2012
by alone in the town
Actually, I think the bad ending could lend itself very well as a lead-in to Shattered Memories, because everything that actually happens in the scenario leading to it can be dismissed as a dying man's fever dreams. In this scenario, it is possible that the Otherworld does not exist at all. Cheryl may still be safe at home. Dahlia may still be his wife, and if an acrimonious separation has just happened, it could make sense that she is represented in his dreams as reprehensibly evil. It would take some work to shoe-horn in the secondary characters, admittedly, but I'm sure it could be done. I might even try it.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 28 Sep 2012
by Trauma_
You make a good point actually. Never thought about it that way. You might have to explain it a bit better though since I can't wrap my head completely around it.
But if I may...
Dahlia 1 (Silent Hill 1) is just a place holder for Dahlia 2 (Shattered Memories). Am I getting that right? If that's true, then where does that place Origins? The immolation and subsequent soul split has happened by the time Harry 1 arrives in Silent Hill. It seems for this theory to work, you have to erase Origins from the equation. If the events of the first game are just a dream, then how does Origins happen when Harry hadn't even been around to witness these events?
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 29 Sep 2012
by Yuki
X-rust wrote:Also, before the original game even begins, we see a cutscene of a woman who does not resemble SM!
Harry's wife (from SH1 intro) died when Cheryl was 3 years old.
In SM, Cheryl is his biological daughter.
Why do you so sure? Harry and his second wife don't tell Cheryl the truth about her birth.
You are not confused that the family video records represent a girl aged 6-7 years? Where is the photos of happy parents from maternity home?
I'm not saying anything about when original!Mrs. Mason died. I'm saying that the fact is that we see, before all the Silent Hill shenanigans began--before Harry even goes into the town--a woman who looks nothing like SM!Dahlia and who doesn't resemble Cheryl, not to mention the fact that we're literally watching them find her.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 29 Sep 2012
by chounokoe
Trauma_ wrote:If the events of the first game are just a dream, then how does Origins happen when Harry hadn't even been around to witness these events?
I think in that scenario the events of Origins would be part of Heather's elaborate fantasy as well. Like Dr. Kaufmann said in the UFO-Ending of SM, she had also presented him with a story about demons and cults. Thus it is entire possible that in an earlier session she told him the story of how in her dreams she was actually only Dahlia's daughter and was mentally abused by her into becoming the mother of God and how Harry tried to rescue her. Travis would actually fit quite nicely into this, as he keeps up her narrative of a strong masculine figure rescuing her from the evil female.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 29 Sep 2012
by Trauma_
chounokoe wrote:Trauma_ wrote:If the events of the first game are just a dream, then how does Origins happen when Harry hadn't even been around to witness these events?
I think in that scenario the events of Origins would be part of Heather's elaborate fantasy as well. Like Dr. Kaufmann said in the UFO-Ending of SM, she had also presented him with a story about demons and cults. Thus it is entire possible that in an earlier session she told him the story of how in her dreams she was actually only Dahlia's daughter and was mentally abused by her into becoming the mother of God and how Harry tried to rescue her. Travis would actually fit quite nicely into this, as he keeps up her narrative of a strong masculine figure rescuing her from the evil female.
That wouldn't work though if Shattered Memories allegedly starts with the bad ending.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 29 Sep 2012
by alone in the town
You could assert that Origins' Bad ending is canon and that he too hallucinated everything.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 29 Sep 2012
by the konami code
chounokoe wrote:Trauma_ wrote:If the events of the first game are just a dream, then how does Origins happen when Harry hadn't even been around to witness these events?
I think in that scenario the events of Origins would be part of Heather's elaborate fantasy as well. Like Dr. Kaufmann said in the UFO-Ending of SM, she had also presented him with a story about demons and cults. Thus it is entire possible that in an earlier session she told him the story of how in her dreams she was actually only Dahlia's daughter and was mentally abused by her into becoming the mother of God and how Harry tried to rescue her. Travis would actually fit quite nicely into this, as he keeps up her narrative of a strong masculine figure rescuing her from the evil female.
in a story, where everything is back words and reality trumps fantasy, could it be possible that the UFO ending - which is normally a joke - IS the official proposed ending in this game? ...Doctor Kaufman is NOT alive and one of the aliens from the rest of the UFO endings is posing as him to convince Cheryl that it all never really happened?
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 30 Sep 2012
by Trauma_
the konami code wrote:chounokoe wrote:Trauma_ wrote:If the events of the first game are just a dream, then how does Origins happen when Harry hadn't even been around to witness these events?
I think in that scenario the events of Origins would be part of Heather's elaborate fantasy as well. Like Dr. Kaufmann said in the UFO-Ending of SM, she had also presented him with a story about demons and cults. Thus it is entire possible that in an earlier session she told him the story of how in her dreams she was actually only Dahlia's daughter and was mentally abused by her into becoming the mother of God and how Harry tried to rescue her. Travis would actually fit quite nicely into this, as he keeps up her narrative of a strong masculine figure rescuing her from the evil female.
in a story, where everything is back words and reality trumps fantasy, could it be possible that the UFO ending - which is normally a joke - IS the official proposed ending in this game? ...Doctor Kaufman is NOT alive and one of the aliens from the rest of the UFO endings is posing as him to convince Cheryl that it all never really happened?
"Anything can happen" is not a valid explanation.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 30 Sep 2012
by Kenji
Ryantology wrote:You could assert that Origins' Bad ending is canon and that he too hallucinated everything.
And that's the problem I see with this theory, even though I can see a sort of elegance in it. If everything is self-contained, disconnected hallucinations among people who never really meet, then the relevance of connecting it chronologically, along those lines, becomes rather moot.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 30 Sep 2012
by SilentWren
^As weak as it sounds even to my own ears; collective subconscious argument?
I'm one of those people that actually hated SM as a game. I respect it and accept it for the things it contributed to the series as a whole, but I just didn't personally like it in it's own right. So as far as people like me are concerned, anything that makes SM more palatable is always welcomed with open arms. Yes, in the strictest definition this IS stretching a bit, but what's the harm? At least it'll bring up some original debates that don't relate to the movie or Downpour.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 30 Sep 2012
by alone in the town
Kenji wrote:Ryantology wrote:You could assert that Origins' Bad ending is canon and that he too hallucinated everything.
And that's the problem I see with this theory, even though I can see a sort of elegance in it. If everything is self-contained, disconnected hallucinations among people who never really meet, then the relevance of connecting it chronologically, along those lines, becomes rather moot.
I agree, entirely, but for me, this exercise is less about legitimate theory than it is about the fun of seeing if an alternate interpretation is possible without sounding completely ridiculous.
The one major flaw with assuming that both Origins and the first Silent Hill are independent hallucinations is how they inexplicably share common characters.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 30 Sep 2012
by the konami code
Trauma_ wrote:the konami code wrote:in a story, where everything is back words and reality trumps fantasy, could it be possible that the UFO ending - which is normally a joke - IS the official proposed ending in this game? ...Doctor Kaufman is NOT alive and one of the aliens from the rest of the UFO endings is posing as him to convince Cheryl that it all never really happened?
"Anything can happen" is not a valid explanation.
I didn't say "anything can happen", but SM does seem to be more about presenting a jumble of disjointed events/characters that somehow lead to one simple PLAUSIBLE truth - Harry Mason died in the car crash. The other games gradually pull the protagonist from reality into a surreal nightmare world which equally seems to tie into the bizarre ending. I don't know. It's hard to explain.
Re: so I have a theory about Shattered Memories...
Posted: 14 Nov 2012
by Trauma_
Ryantology wrote:Kenji wrote:Ryantology wrote:You could assert that Origins' Bad ending is canon and that he too hallucinated everything.
And that's the problem I see with this theory, even though I can see a sort of elegance in it. If everything is self-contained, disconnected hallucinations among people who never really meet, then the relevance of connecting it chronologically, along those lines, becomes rather moot.
I agree, entirely, but for me, this exercise is less about legitimate theory than it is about the fun of seeing if an alternate interpretation is possible without sounding completely ridiculous.
The one major flaw with assuming that both Origins and the first Silent Hill are independent hallucinations is how they inexplicably share common characters.
The more I think about the "dying fever dreams" theory, the more I love it, and the more I dislike Origins. It could work on the condition that the series were to split off into different tangents (rather than an alternate universe altogether) like the Zelda series had (and that Origins had never existed). It's also an interesting idea for future installments if they can get rid of the cult once and for all.
Of course, for it to work, the characters in Shattered Memories would be closer to those in Harry's real life, considering the human brains tendency to fuck people in 5 directions at once while they're dying.
These would simply be the same events interpreted from 2 different (and equally skewed) perspectives.
-(IRL) Dahlia could be represented by an insane cult leader hellbent on world destruction. It was shown in Shattered Memories that the divorce was messy no matter what, and most divorces generally end in either party antagonizing the other.
-The burning of Alessa could be representative of the effect that Dahlia's and Harry's divorce had on Cheryl.
-It's not told whether or not Harry and Dahlia actually went for marriage counseling, however it could be likely.(There's no proof either way however, so this is moot for now). It's not a stretch to think that (IRL) Kaufman was their family psychiatrist. (SH1) Kaufman working in cahoots with (SH1) Dahlia could be representative of the some sort of (perceived) favoritism towards (IRL) Dahlia on (IRL) Kaufman's part, and Harry harboring some resentment from that.
-Around the end of Silent Hill-Shattered Memories, Kaufman says something along the lines of "But you're alive, your mother is alive. She's not the monster you make her out to be". Which would reinforce my earlier point a bit.
That's all I've got for now but I'm sure I could find a use for the other characters in SM. Would be a bit tricky to figure out how Cybill Bennet, and Harry's dead wife from Silent Hill 1 would fit into the equation however.
Another reason to say fuck Origins...