Combat.

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stopped_clock
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Re: Combat.

Post by stopped_clock »

There may well have been more enemies in SH3, but I don't particularly like that game either.

In SH1 combat never felt like a chore to me though, I always found it quite brutal and satisfying, I never get tired of dispatching hospital staff with the emergency hammer. Homecoming's combat always felt like a shitty mini-game to me, combat in previous games felt more natural and was better integrated into the overall experience.
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Tillerman
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Re: Combat.

Post by Tillerman »

Silent Hill games have always had a lot of combat, and 1-3 is no exception. But the difference is that those games made combat as simple and easy as possible, so it never got frustrating. The question is if that's a good route for Silent Hill to continue taking in regards to the combat. If we keep the monsters as frequent as the early games, but add challenge and complexity to the combat, in my mind that's just making Silent Hill into Resident Evil. That's a good route for an action game but not IMO for a horror game. Reducing the amount of encounters while making them more fearsome seems like the exactly the right way to go for a horror game. I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like to me.
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Silent Fantasy
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Re: Combat.

Post by Silent Fantasy »

^ I completely agree with that. letting the enviornment and acoustics making you uneasy. havnt seen a monster in awile, but you know ones around the corner somewhere. then you run into one, bringing in the fear and dread into the mix. the only thing about encounters being less, is balencing it and making it unpredictable. not, "well i killed a monster just now. now i know i wont be seeing one for a bit atleast. time to chill. 8)"
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Doctor Eggnog
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Re: Combat.

Post by Doctor Eggnog »

I agree with stopped_clock. SH1's combat has gotten imfamously sh*tty and I don't know why. Maybe everyone switches SH2 and 3 to 3D controls or something.

As for Tillerman's idea, I would only like it if it was taken to the extreme, like there were VERY few enemies (like 5-15) in the whole game and they were never repeated, and it might take going through an entire level and doing puzzles and things to take one out (but definetly not every level or it'd be way too Clock Tower 3) Plus it would be really hard to see one coming. That would be the only way to really focus on the enemies that I would like. Otherwise I'd rather just have the first two game's combat. (The third game felt much more combat focused than the first two to me.) But that's just me, sometimes my SH opinions are different from a lot of people. (I think 2 is the scariest and has the best graphics lol.)

So basically I want as little combat focus as the first two games or near boss level focus with every enounter but very few encounters (sortof like Shadow of the Colussus). Gee, I feel picky.
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clips
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Re: Combat.

Post by clips »

I just like how the combat was handled in the older games...once we got homecoming it was annoying and the framerate was atrocious....and what's the fun in just pressing the button using the knife?....Alex looked liked a manic sitting there in that animation and it brought the whole game down a bit immersion wise because of it.

The SH creatures were never that strong to begin with...the atmosphere and disturbing imagery is what was SH's strongest elements...i mean it does help on some level that the creatures are a challenge, but for the most part, most creatures in SH were made to freighten you because of their disfigured forms and horrifying presence.

The scare factor in SH is completely different from the standard scare mechanics seen in classic RE games...notice i said "classic RE games" as in RE 1 & 2...those games contained basic horror fundamentals in terms of standard horror mechanics...the first game just felt like a huge haunted house and it worked well for that game, but the SH series is just brutally something else altogether.
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Re: Combat.

Post by Skele »

eh, i can't argue against your opinions... it's just that i happen to like Homecoming's gameplay so i enjoy the combat a lot in that game. to me, the controls are really simple, and gameplay feels fluid whereas the older games were simple, but felt clunky and got boring. there's a reason why i mainly stuck to firearms in the old games, and if it wasn't that, it was the steel pipe.
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stopped_clock
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Re: Combat.

Post by stopped_clock »

Homecoming's combat was indeed simple, and sure, the controls are fine, but for some reason for me it just felt like a repetitive task with no pay off. Slash slash slash, tap b at the right moment, rinse, repeat. Alex's dodge rolls and combos made the combat feel more sleek and somehow less brutal and visceral than in previous games, I guess it's because once you start putting in combo systems and all that it starts to feel more gamey. Condemned 2 had the same problem for me. I felt that homecoming dealt with firearms particularly poorly, but that didn't really bother me since I've never been one to use the guns in SH unless I absolutely have to.
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Skele
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Re: Combat.

Post by Skele »

Condmened's combat isn't brutal to you? so you feel SH 1-4's combat is more brutal?

i definitely disagree, and as far as shooting in Homecoming goes, i thought it was fine. i prefer to aim/shoot for myself, rather than have the game auto aim for me... so i like the fact that when i miss, or hit something, it's cos i actually did it, rather than having the game just randomly make me miss, or give me a head shot.

also, combat is repetitive in all the games, i mean any action/shooter/fighter game is repetitive, but what makes a game fun to play are the gameplay options available to you. i'm not saying Homecoming had tons of options, but the combat/gameplay offered a lot more than past games, and the enemy AI was also improved.

thanks for bringing up Condemned though, as i had been wanting to go back and play both games.
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Re: Combat.

Post by Tillerman »

The reason Homecoming's combat feels repetitive is because there's too many monsters and they're too good at killing you. The earlier games don't feel repetitive because combat is easy... once it's turned it into a chore that you have to do so often, it's only natural it will feel repetitive. As a horror game Homecoming has too much action, and as an action game it's too simple and repetitive.
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Skele
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Re: Combat.

Post by Skele »

^sorry, the earlier games are just as repeititive if you decide to kill monsters. repetitiveness isn't always viewed as a bad thing, though. and also, the gameplay/combat in Homecoming isn't very hard to grasp. i've seen plenty of people here who find homecoming's difficulty and gameplay stupid easy (like me).

also Homecoming doesn't really have much action going on. it's not like it's DMC, or even RE4 or RE5 where there's tons of enemies on the screen that you have to kill in order to progress. RE5 suffers from being very action packed, but having such a dated control scheme that limits the player, and actually ruins the experience for a ton of gamers (msyelf included). Homecoming gives the player more options to work with, but you're not really forced to kill everything. it's really up to the player whether to fight, or simply elude the monsters. when people say you're forced to fight every monster in Homecoming i just laugh because it's simply not true.
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Tillerman
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Re: Combat.

Post by Tillerman »

Well yeah, you're right. Basically, it's only gonna seem repetitive if what you're doing seems like a chore. So everyone's gonna see it differently.
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stopped_clock
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Re: Combat.

Post by stopped_clock »

Skele wrote:Condmened's combat isn't brutal to you? so you feel SH 1-4's combat is more brutal?

i definitely disagree, and as far as shooting in Homecoming goes, i thought it was fine. i prefer to aim/shoot for myself, rather than have the game auto aim for me... so i like the fact that when i miss, or hit something, it's cos i actually did it, rather than having the game just randomly make me miss, or give me a head shot.

also, combat is repetitive in all the games, i mean any action/shooter/fighter game is repetitive, but what makes a game fun to play are the gameplay options available to you. i'm not saying Homecoming had tons of options, but the combat/gameplay offered a lot more than past games, and the enemy AI was also improved.

thanks for bringing up Condemned though, as i had been wanting to go back and play both games.
Condemned's combat is incredibly brutal, but the sequel bogged it down with gamey aspects (The addition of the timed combos and finishing moves and all that) which is exactly what I felt Homecoming did to the combat of SH. Yes it maybe makes the combat a little more complex, but I can't think of an example of when that's been a good idea in a survival horror game.

I also prefer to manually aim in games, I just don't think homecoming did it very well, even with the senstivity maxed it felt incredibly sluggish and the transition from standard camera to ots was anything but smooth.

Sure, all games have repetitive gameplay elements, but you only notice repetition if the task that you are repeating is dull, which is what I found the combat in homecoming to be.
Last edited by stopped_clock on 16 Jul 2011, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combat.

Post by SilentRobert23 »

Tillerman wrote:Well yeah, you're right. Basically, it's only gonna seem repetitive if what you're doing seems like a chore. So everyone's gonna see it differently.
I suspect it seemed so repetitive b/c the monsters were relentless pursuers, at least until they got stuck on a doorframe. Fight-or-flight lost the latter option in Homecoming in most encounters.
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Skele
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Re: Combat.

Post by Skele »

"I suspect it seemed so repetitive b/c the monsters were relentless pursuers, at least until they got stuck on a doorframe. Fight-or-flight lost the latter option in Homecoming in most encounters."

not really. the only monsters that were relentless, and not super easy to get away from were the schism's... and that's really only due to the fact that in the few times you encounter them, i think you fight like 2 at one time (police station, church). all the other times it's a one on one battle. if you don't want to fight it, simply let it try to attack you, dodge/roll, and then run away. simple.

Needlers are kind of relentless, but there's only 2 instances where you must kill them (or 3 if you stink at a puzzle). one is in the prison shower room, where there's 2 that drop from the ceiling. i say you have to kill them because alex is too slow to cut through the wall opening without getting attacked by them. the other is in the sewers, when they attack you with Siam, but that's like a mini boss fight, so it makes sense.

Nurses, lurkers, ferals, smogs, and even Siam are easy to get away from, however Siam is the only one you have to kill. and he's easy to kill if you have 3 shots in your shotgun.
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stopped_clock
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Re: Combat.

Post by stopped_clock »

Skele wrote:"I suspect it seemed so repetitive b/c the monsters were relentless pursuers, at least until they got stuck on a doorframe. Fight-or-flight lost the latter option in Homecoming in most encounters."

not really. the only monsters that were relentless, and not super easy to get away from were the schism's... and that's really only due to the fact that in the few times you encounter them, i think you fight like 2 at one time (police station, church). all the other times it's a one on one battle. if you don't want to fight it, simply let it try to attack you, dodge/roll, and then run away. simple.

Needlers are kind of relentless, but there's only 2 instances where you must kill them (or 3 if you stink at a puzzle). one is in the prison shower room, where there's 2 that drop from the ceiling. i say you have to kill them because alex is too slow to cut through the wall opening without getting attacked by them. the other is in the sewers, when they attack you with Siam, but that's like a mini boss fight, so it makes sense.

Nurses, lurkers, ferals, smogs, and even Siam are easy to get away from, however Siam is the only one you have to kill. and he's easy to kill if you have 3 shots in your shotgun.
I agree with all this, the monsters are no more difficult to escape than in previous games, indeed, they are all far easier to avoid than, say, the rompers from SH1, who seem perfectly able to fuck Harry's shit up no matter how far away from them you think you've got, the leaping bastards!

To bring things back to Downpour's combat, whilst I want it to be challenging, all this talk of Homecoming has made me realise what else I want, I want it to be unintrusive. I want it not to interrupt the flow of the game but rather to blend into it seamlessly. That's what I think Homecomings combat failed to do.
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