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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Aug 2010
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^ Yeah I disagree. The endings and important stuff shouldn't be crap on lower difficulties, but if were talking about frivalous unlockable things, then all of the good ones should be on higher difficulties. I mean it's a shame that nothing is unlocked by beating Silent Hill 3 on Extrme X mode. That should have the best unlockable, like a God more, or all the weapons at the beginning of the game, or a nude Heather.

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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
>Except this time, we get a huge reunion of every protagonist. That would be awesome.<
We call that the Labyrinth ending.

I'd rather the developers not pull a Parasite Eve and fuck over everyone who isn't a super-hardcore, I-have-days-to-spend-killing-the-real-boss gamer. In high school, sure, I managed to do that. Now—hell no am I spending another 15 hours to go up 70 floors only to die repeatedly against arguably one of the most difficult final bosses in history, especially when the only story-wise reward is another minute of dialogue.

No one wants to hear it—too bad—but Silent Hill 2 got it right: Endings should be affected by one's actions, in legitimate (re: subtle) ways.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2007
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I dunno about other difficulty junkies on this forum, but for me, beating a strong opponent is its own reward: I don't need any further incentive.

I used to think it'd be nice if there was a prize, but that's really not fair. There's no good reason to lock out players who don't want to bother with the higher difficulties aside from plain ol' elitism. Gaming elitism isn't even a useful kind of elitism, so why encourage it?

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
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I'm agreeing with Adversary on this one. SH2 had the most subtle ways of effecting the ending. I didn't even realize that things like the rooftop diary, the knife, or the photo of Mary could even do that until I completed the game. Most of the series hasn't even tried that, instead going for sidequests or number of enemies killed. Even with all of its problems, Homecoming came close to pulling off something similar. SM, on the other hand, made things a bit too subtle, IMO.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
Last seen at: Chicago
But so what if there is extra content in hard mode that the regular player won't see? It's only a tiny bit of content. The non-hardcore players can still experience 99.999% of the game on any other difficulty, is it really that important that they have to see *everything?* If there is some extra ending on hard mode that you aren't willing to put the time into seeing, then there's always youtube. But for people who are willing to put the effort into it, why not reward them?

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
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Last seen at: Birmingham
Tillerman wrote:
But so what if there is extra content in hard mode that the regular player won't see? It's only a tiny bit of content. The non-hardcore players can still experience 99.999% of the game on any other difficulty, is it really that important that they have to see *everything?* If there is some extra ending on hard mode that you aren't willing to put the time into seeing, then there's always youtube. But for people who are willing to put the effort into it, why not reward them?

I always play on normal, I've never played any of the games on hard. Is anything different besides difficulty, less ammo and saves?


Last edited by krakalackin on 08 Mar 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
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>The non-hardcore players can still experience 99.999% of the game on any other difficulty<
If I'm not permitted a relevant memo or note or some other such data because I'm not a "hardcore gamer," then fuck the developers for thinking only certain content should be permitted to said "hardcore gamers."

Here's an idea: Let's exclude all of the memos from the Easy difficulty. Clearly only gamers who play on Easy mode aren't interested in actually playing the game and enjoying its story, otherwise they'd graduate to hardcore gamer status and play real games.

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 13 Jun 2007
Notes left: 811
Last seen at: Brazil
I agree with The Adversary. The game should be acessible for everyone, I would love some kind of beginner's mode a la Silent Hill 2 for enjoying its story without worrying about the gameplay. The inclusion of a extremely easy difficulty setting doesn't exclude the possibility of putting a extremely hard one for those who enjoy it.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
Last seen at: Chicago
Wigeke wrote:
I agree with The Adversary. The game should be acessible for everyone, I would love some kind of beginner's mode a la Silent Hill 2 for enjoying its story without worrying about the gameplay. The inclusion of a extremely easy difficulty setting doesn't exclude the possibility of putting a extremely hard one for those who enjoy it.


I think the story should be accessible to people who want to play the game on easy as well, but that doesn't mean there can't be extras exclusive to hard mode. Certainly those extras shouldn't be vital pieces of story information, but what's the harm in having some bonus content like an extra boss or a bonus ending? How does that hurt easy mode players? I mean, do people think it's not permissable to have *any* content exclusive to hard mode? It's not okay to reward players for beating a harder difficulty?

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 21 Jun 2010
Notes left: 51
The Adversary wrote:
Here's an idea: Let's exclude all of the memos from the Easy difficulty. Clearly only gamers who play on Easy mode aren't interested in actually playing the game and enjoying its story, otherwise they'd graduate to hardcore gamer status and play real games.


i take that's scarcasm?
if not,
how would any one be deeply interested in a game they've never played, or even heard of, and they're just doing it to try it out?

I wouldn't blame anyone who's a starter on this game for not caring about the story and the game itself, but obviously, if we take out all of the memos and said story from the easy mode, it might be a sure not-coming-back-for-more experience for them...

just sayin


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
Context is everything.

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This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 21 Jun 2010
Notes left: 51
then i guess that post goes out to Tillersman
wink


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Jan 2011
Notes left: 250
Last seen at: Gnashville, TN
I don't think players should necessarily be penalized for choosing an easier difficulty, but I wouldn't see a problem with a few extras for those who choose hard mode. The actual story itself shouldn't be affected, obviously, but I don't see anything wrong with rewarding people who take the time to get better at the game.

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 13 Jun 2007
Notes left: 811
Last seen at: Brazil
Tillerman wrote:
Wigeke wrote:
I agree with The Adversary. The game should be acessible for everyone, I would love some kind of beginner's mode a la Silent Hill 2 for enjoying its story without worrying about the gameplay. The inclusion of a extremely easy difficulty setting doesn't exclude the possibility of putting a extremely hard one for those who enjoy it.


I think the story should be accessible to people who want to play the game on easy as well, but that doesn't mean there can't be extras exclusive to hard mode. Certainly those extras shouldn't be vital pieces of story information, but what's the harm in having some bonus content like an extra boss or a bonus ending? How does that hurt easy mode players? I mean, do people think it's not permissable to have *any* content exclusive to hard mode? It's not okay to reward players for beating a harder difficulty?


As long as the reward isn't anything related to the plot I'm okay with that. Something like a weapon, or different clothing to the characters, something along these lines, the problem with putting a extra ending on harder settings is that people who play on easy can't see it easily and there's always the chance that particular ending is important to the plot.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 21 Jun 2010
Notes left: 51
hasn't the difficulty election always been related to the plot?

as in SH1, we totally got different plausible endings depending on our actions AND difficulty level, and that feature doesn't bother me at all... i could be totally wrong, though.

i'm loving your avatar and signature, btw @Wigeke
(:


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
Last seen at: Chicago
Wigeke wrote:
As long as the reward isn't anything related to the plot I'm okay with that. Something like a weapon, or different clothing to the characters, something along these lines, the problem with putting a extra ending on harder settings is that people who play on easy can't see it easily and there's always the chance that particular ending is important to the plot.


Well, I wouldn't mind them making the "true" ending only accessible in hard mode, but I can see how that might be frustrating for some players. It could always be more of a bonus ending, something that isn't necessary to see in order to understand the plot, or even a joke ending. As a matter of fact, I don't necessarily think hard mode needs to have it's own ending... any special content as a reward would be great. As you say, bonus costumes or weapons are great options. If I had to pick my #1 choice, I would like to see a special boss only accessible on hard mode. It's both an extra challenge and bonus content. Like I said before, I love Contra 3, and not enough games do that kind of thing.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2007
Notes left: 5077
Sure, a player who doesn't have the skill, time, or willingness to pursue that extra cutscene could find it on YouTube, but there's a principle to the matter. It's the game's acknowledgement and encouragement of entertainment castes based on an individual's priorities. It's telling other people that they're not good enough to see this or that on their own, and they must rely on the generosity of the "hardcore" and be thankful for it.

I'll put in the effort (over an extended period of time) to defeat a strong enemy, but I hardly think everyone does or should act like me or believe that my frankly silly, unproductive behavior deserves any reward beyond my personal satisfaction.

Why should we penalize those who put their jobs, social lives, or a myriad of other things over videogames? So we geeks can feel better about ourselves and perpetuate the fantasy that we're better than everyone else? That's the only reason I can see, and it's the big reason I'm really uncomfortable with this "hardcore vs. casual" debate. "Casual" is a term coined for the express purpose of looking down upon those who aren't willing to devote their lives to a leisure activity. I wholeheartedly reject that line of thinking.

Should there be separate difficulties for separate levels of skill and devotion? Of course. Should it affect anything besides the challenge? I don't think so. In addition to my own feelings, it's a terrible idea because it creates a disincentive for anyone other than the geekiest to buy videogames, and that's bad for business.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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Kenji wrote:
Why should we penalize those who put their jobs, social lives, or a myriad of other things over videogames?


Why is rewarding the hardcore players a "penalty" for casual players? There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing a game casually, and games should always try to be accessible to new players. But should casual players be automatically entitled to experience *all* of a game's content handed to them on a silver platter? Are you saying that it's wrong to reward effort?

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
The Adversary wrote:
No one wants to hear it—too bad—but Silent Hill 2 got it right: Endings should be affected by one's actions, in legitimate (re: subtle) ways.

I loved the way SH2 determined the endings. It was a great and thoughtful way to tie in ones actions into James' fate. It made the game better, almost more realistic, imo. Having the viewing of the knife tie into the In Water ending was a great way to show James' frame of mind when it comes to his actions and that ending. I think having it done in that manner just adds to the game and story. Sure, they're subtle, and seemingly small and insignificant actions, but in the end, if one thinks about the requirements, it could give a little insight into how the character's mind worked, and thus how they came to that fate.

Tillerman wrote:
If there is some extra ending on hard mode that you aren't willing to put the time into seeing, then there's always youtube.

Yeah, but it's not the same. As I recall, there is a different mode/ending in the Xbox version of Project Zero 2/Fatal Frame 2. I've only seen it on YouTube, but it just doesn't have the same impact as it would if I had been able to achieve that ending myself (don't have an Xbox). Limiting the players experience based on skill level is a cope out. I don't mind extra content, such as new weapons, outfits, or other unlockables for people who manage to beat hard mode, but not story related stuff. I don't think it's fair to punish those of us who aren't hardcore gamers by depriving us of story related material.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Yeah, but it's not the same. As I recall, there is a different mode/ending in the Xbox version of Project Zero 2/Fatal Frame 2. I've only seen it on YouTube, but it just doesn't have the same impact as it would if I had been able to achieve that ending myself (don't have an Xbox). Limiting the players experience based on skill level is a cope out. I don't mind extra content, such as new weapons, outfits, or other unlockables for people who manage to beat hard mode, but not story related stuff. I don't think it's fair to punish those of us who aren't hardcore gamers by depriving us of story related material.


I see where you're coming from. But how much of a "punishment" it actually is really depends on the nature of the unlockable ending itself. For example, take Parasite Eve's "bonus ending." In all honesty I can tell you that if you didn't see that, you missed very little... the ending you get at the end of the regular game is pretty much all you needed.

Now, in a hypothetical extreme case where the normal ending to the game is complete crap, and the hard mode ending is awesome, then yeah, I would agree with you that casual gamers are being "punished." But I'm having a hard time thinking of cases where that actually happens... other than Contra games, anyway. Anyway, that's not really the direction I'd like to see them go either... if there is gonna be an excusive hard mode ending, I would rather it be more of a bonus ending that you don't need to see in order to understand the story. Or, like I said, it doesn't even need to be an ending, in fact I would prefer an extra boss for hard mode if I had a choice.

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