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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
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Tillerman wrote:
DLC is just like any other purchase... sometimes it's worth your money, sometimes it's not. The same can be said for the actual games, too.



Nooo it's really not. A lot of DLC is just a ripoff. A lot of DLC is actually already on the disk, so you're paying to unlock a portion of the disk, the same disk you already payed 60 bucks for. It's really only worth it when it's an expansion pack, but for a lot of DLC it's just an excuse for greedy developers to get more money. Keep in mind a lot of DLC is actually made and put on the disk before the game even comes out.

Check out the first part of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRXjIruc ... ture=feedu

Quote:
lets not even get into how stupid EA's online pass is.


Oh god don't even get me started about this shit. The game industry is getting bad these days. . .

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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Yeah, I can see why that's annoying... it's almost like a hidden fee, because you're not actually getting the "full" game unless you pay an additional amount. But at the same time, if those unlockables are not worth it you can always just not get them. I don't really blame them for trying to make money, but it's also to their advantage to try not to piss off their customers.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
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^Yeah, i have money to buy DLC but a lot of times i refuse to buy it based on principle. I will say im all for DLC that's actually a big expansion of the game, like the GTA DLC.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."

Missing since: 16 Jul 2010
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I am worried that the SHD will have RE4 like camera


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 29 Jun 2008
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I believe it's already been confirmed to have a mix of fixed cameras and third-person over-the-shoulder (or as you put it "RE4") perspectives in the Game Informer article.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."

Missing since: 16 Jul 2010
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leftshoe18 wrote:
I believe it's already been confirmed to have a mix of fixed cameras and third-person over-the-shoulder (or as you put it "RE4") perspectives in the Game Informer article.


Damn, I hoped the SHD will have SHO or SH4 camera, RE4 view is good for action games but spoils the suspense in horror


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Mar 2009
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xerx wrote:
leftshoe18 wrote:
I believe it's already been confirmed to have a mix of fixed cameras and third-person over-the-shoulder (or as you put it "RE4") perspectives in the Game Informer article.


Damn, I hoped the SHD will have SHO or SH4 camera, RE4 view is good for action games but spoils the suspense in horror


Not if you're intelligent about the way that you build up the suspense. If the only way you can think of creating suspense is to have irritating and occluding (does that word make sense in this context?) camera angles then you really shouldn't be making a horror game.

Just look at Dead Space (the first game, not the second, because that one's just silly) complete camera control in a game that is frankly terrifying. Or even better, what about the first person horror games like Condemned or Amnesia, both scary as all fuck (especially Condemned) and I don't think that you can give someone more camera control than a first person view.

Fatal Frame 4 uses ots style cam and is still scary than every SH game other than the first.

Just to clarify, it's not that I don't like cinematic camera angles, because I do, but if you need them to make the game scary then obviously it isn't a very good horror game.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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stopped_clock wrote:
Not if you're intelligent about the way that you build up the suspense. If the only way you can think of creating suspense is to have irritating and occluding (does that word make sense in this context?) camera angles then you really shouldn't be making a horror game.


I agree that it's easily possible to have suspense with a RE4 style camera, I mean RE4 itself managed to have a decent amount at points. But I also agree with the other guy that cinematic style camera angles are generally better at creating suspense, at least for me. I find that in games with a constant behind the shoulder camera view, something seems to be lost.

stopped_clock wrote:
Just look at Dead Space (the first game, not the second, because that one's just silly) complete camera control in a game that is frankly terrifying. Or even better, what about the first person horror games like Condemned or Amnesia, both scary as all fuck (especially Condemned) and I don't think that you can give someone more camera control than a first person view.


We've talked about this before, I don't find Dead Space very scary. To be fair, that's for a variety of reasons, but one of which is probably the RE style camera which makes me feel more like I'm playing a Resident Evil style action game. And I haven't played Condemned. I do agree with you though that Amnesia seems pretty successful at creating suspense, despite my preference for 3rd person games. If it didn't have that huge issue of player immortality I'd probably find it pretty effective. But I still think I'd find it even more suspenseful if it were a 3rd person game.

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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Mar 2009
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Tillerman wrote:
I find that in games with a constant behind the shoulder camera view, something seems to be lost.



Thankfully for all concerned they said they will be using both ots and cinematic in SH:D I'm hoping for something along the lines of Cold Fear - so cinematic camera angles are the default but holding down the right mouse button pulls the camera in for RE4 style gameplay.

My problem with cinematic angles though is that it often seems like a way of purposefully limiting control because you can't think of a better way to make a game scary, and whilst it works* it does kinda feel like a cop-out to me. (The same way that in RE you can't move when you're shooting, it's an unnatural limitation that hampers immersion, at least for me.)


*Fatal Frame 1 has the most annoying control/camera scheme ever implemented into a game (not including Hell Forces, what, you really want me to repeatedly tap space to jump higher, in an fps horror? Don't be so silly!) and is probably the scariest game ever made.

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I'll take the river down to still water
And ride a pack of dogs


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
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My main problem with cinematic camera angles is that sometimes they throw them in a room for no reason at all. There's a room in Resi Remake where the camera is positioned under a desk simply because they could. That annoys me a lot.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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stopped_clock wrote:
Thankfully for all concerned they said they will be using both ots and cinematic in SH:D I'm hoping for something along the lines of Cold Fear - so cinematic camera angles are the default but holding down the right mouse button pulls the camera in for RE4 style gameplay.


I could not agree more. That's exactly what I'm hoping they'll do.

stopped_clock wrote:
My problem with cinematic angles though is that it often seems like a way of purposefully limiting control because you can't think of a better way to make a game scary, and whilst it works* it does kinda feel like a cop-out to me. (The same way that in RE you can't move when you're shooting, it's an unnatural limitation that hampers immersion, at least for me.)


I can see why you'd feel that way, but I don't think the developers purposefully set out to "limit control," rather I think that when you use cinematic camera angles, it's almost unavoidable that control will be limited in some way. Although I do know that in some cases the developers do purposefully limit control, like with the RE example you cited.

Although with the RE example, is that really an "unnatural limitation"? I've always found it very realistic. To me, being able to strafe and aim perfectly is unnatural. In real life, if someone wants to actually hit something, they stand still and aim. If you try to actually strafe a target and fire at it you won't hit anything.

stopped_clock wrote:
*Fatal Frame 1 has the most annoying control/camera scheme ever implemented into a game (not including Hell Forces, what, you really want me to repeatedly tap space to jump higher, in an fps horror? Don't be so silly!) and is probably the scariest game ever made.


I find Fatal Frame's controls to generally be pretty good, considering. Granted, they take some getting used to, and I suppose you could say that whenever you need to "get used to something" that's code for it being bad, but honestly I can't imagine how they could be better. Although Fatal Frame 2 is sorely missing the quick turn around button that Fatal Frame 1 had. The only problem other problem is the same one I have with every cinematic style horror game, in that occaisonally if you try to switch movement directions as the camera is changing, you get screwed up. It's usually not a big deal during battles, but there's certain vanishing ghosts that are really hard to capture because of some changing camera angles.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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I actually find the tank controls less bothersome in Fatal Frame than in Resident Evil. I don't know why, but the RE controls combined with the camera gave me more problems than most anything.

That's all without mentioning that Fatal Frame has a really well thought out combat system. In Resident Evil, you just get lucky.

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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Mar 2009
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Tillerman wrote:
Although with the RE example, is that really an "unnatural limitation"? I've always found it very realistic. To me, being able to strafe and aim perfectly is unnatural. In real life, if someone wants to actually hit something, they stand still and aim. If you try to actually strafe a target and fire at it you won't hit anything.


I'm not trying to suggest that they allow you to sprint and use a sniper rifle at the same time (apologies for the hyperbole :) ) it just seems logical to me that you should be able to move and shoot, if you have a pistol and you're in a corridor full of zombies you are going to be backing away and shooting at the same time or you're gonna be dead. Taking away that ability is a way of purposefully limiting what a person can do in order to make a situation scarier, without actually having to make it scarier, if that makes sense.

As for Fatal Frame, it's not so much the standard controls as the disconnect between the 3rd and 1st person controls. I have never been able to get used to switching between exploration and camera modes. I accept that this could well just be me being useless!

EDIT: One of the things I love about the FF controls is the run button.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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stopped_clock wrote:
I'm not trying to suggest that they allow you to sprint and use a sniper rifle at the same time (apologies for the hyperbole :) ) it just seems logical to me that you should be able to move and shoot, if you have a pistol and you're in a corridor full of zombies you are going to be backing away and shooting at the same time or you're gonna be dead. Taking away that ability is a way of purposefully limiting what a person can do in order to make a situation scarier, without actually having to make it scarier, if that makes sense.


Yeah, you can't shoot and back away in Resident Evil at the same time. You can in Fatal Frame though, which is nice. The thing about Resident Evil controls is that they are perfect for slow moving enemies like zombies, but when you try to fight more manuverable enemies like bosses they become kind of a pain.

But speaking hypothetically, if you're in a corridor full of zombies you are probably not going to be backing away and shooting. If you are anywhere with zombies, you are never going to back up, period! You're always gonna look where you're going! If you're gonna try to shoot a zombie, you're gonna want to stand still and take careful aim, so as not to waste ammo. And if you need to back up, then you should probably turn around and run instead, and not worry about shooting what's behind you, since you're not gonna hit it anyway.

So yeah, Resident Evil's controls... way more realistic than just about any FPS game, when you think about it!

stopped_clock wrote:
As for Fatal Frame, it's not so much the standard controls as the disconnect between the 3rd and 1st person controls. I have never been able to get used to switching between exploration and camera modes. I accept that this could well just be me being useless!

EDIT: One of the things I love about the FF controls is the run button.


The run button is really nice, it's great for games with fixed cameras. Yeah, the disconnect between controls never bothered me. When you switch from third person to first person view, it seems only natural that the controls would have to change, because now all of a sudden you have to worry about controlling the camera and moving is less important.

If Downpour ends up having switchable viewpoints, it'll be interesting to see if there are control issues there as well. I would think there'd have to be. Fixed camera games usually use analog control or tank controls, but tank controls are really unpopular so it'd probably be analog. Over the shoulder camera games either use tank controls like Resident Evil, or FPS controls like Dead Space, right? I don't think it's even possible for an over the shoulder camera game to have analog control, cause then the camera would flip around like crazy and it'd be disorienting, wouldn't it? It seems like if you're gonna have switchable camera types, it's pretty much mandatory to switch between totally different control schemes.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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In RE4, the controls weren't a problem imo. this is due to the ganados (or whatever they were called) not swarming you as badly as the enemies do in RE5. i think simply adding the ability to move and reload would've helped RE5 a ton. there were too many times where i had 2 monsters around me, and i got caught by one cos Chris was glued to the floor as he needed to reload.

they also should've given players the option to walk and shoot as well. that goes for moving forward, sideways and backwards. leave it to the player to decide whether or not to risk moving backwards into a crowd of zombies. heck, most of the time i found myself wanting to move forward, or to the side while shooting monsters in front of me, because i could hear one creeping up behind me.

imo, the controls in Homecoming were fine, however they can be improved upon. if Vatra decides to go back to tank controls with Downpour, i'd be very unhappy.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Skele wrote:
imo, the controls in Homecoming were fine, however they can be improved upon. if Vatra decides to go back to tank controls with Downpour, i'd be very unhappy.
Couldn't agree more. Devs should be finding ways to make the more advanced control schemes frightening, rather than adopting controls that were barely acceptable in the early 2000s. They shouldn't be taking steps backward (lol RE5), they should be adapting to the new gaming environment.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Maybe this is crazy, but personally I'd like to see a control scheme that combines both tank style and analog style movements. Analog is more natural to use, but has problems with shifting camera angles; tank controls can easily handle shifting camera angles but feels stiff. I'd really like it if you had analog control with the left analog stick, but also at the same time you had a run button that just made you run forward, and you could use the L & R buttons to steer like in a tank controlled game. That's a lot of buttons to assign for movement, but it would be nice to have the best of both worlds.

I thought of this while I was replaying Fatal Frame, because you have analog controls and a run button, which I thought was nice, but I wished there was some way to steer your character while using the run button like in a tank control game.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."

Missing since: 30 Mar 2011
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Am I the only person in the world that actually LIKES Silent Hill Homecoming? Seriously, it's not that bad. Granted, as a Silent Hill game it's terrible (not scary either), but as a GAME it's average. Seriously, as long as you completely ignore the "Silent Hill" part in the title, and just think of it as "Homecoming, the stand alone action- horror game!", it can be rather fun.


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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 23 Dec 2006
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Is it confirmed to be over the shoulder and not just 3rd person?


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
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^I believe it has been confirmed to be over the shoulder, i.e., a camera system that doesn't suck.

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