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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Mar 2011
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Seems consistent enough, except everyone must be put on trial before being sentenced. With Sewell's grudge against Frank, there would have been reasonable doubt for Murphy up the wazoo. Furthermore, he wouldn't have even been charged for murder until years later when Frank finally died! Murphy must have known about Frank being alive, but spent every day from 2006 to 2011 not doing anything about Sewell, while Sewell spent every one of those days not doing anything about Murphy.

My point is this: if they had simply made Frank die right there in the showers, all the game would be missing was the wheelchair monster. Anne would still have her hatred, Murphy would still have his guilt. The whole vegetative state thing is plot-hole-inducing for no real purpose other than having yet another Silent Hill baddie on wheels.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute

Missing since: 20 Mar 2012
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How many times do you need this explained to you? He stabbed him in the throat. Blood loss means lack of oxygen to the brain, lack of oxygen to the brain means brain damage. It has nothing to do with how close to the brain the hit was. You could have your leg lopped off and the blood loss could cause brain damage.

This isn't some far fetched interpretation. You would have to want to see something wrong with this to find anything wrong with this. You're reasoning is completely contrived. Why was Angela's monster a table to represent sexual abuse? What does a table have to do with anything? Why not just a man? Why not just a meaty rape monster? Why a goddamn table? Why is pyamid head pyramid head? He's a judgemental executioner, when have you ever seen an executioner wearing a big rusty iron pyramid on their head?


You dont know why he's in a wheelchair? You know what? You're completely right. A mush brained vegetable laying on a gourney would've been a WAY scarier boss right? If you thought it was sort of a weak design that didn't scare you, so be it, but don't act like it's some major game or plot inconsistency that the developers overlooked. The monster's have no defined rules for their manifestation. They're loosely associated with the characters' psyche. For whatever reason, Anne pictured the mofo in a wheelchair. You don't get how it was meaningful? Wheelchairs don't symbolize crippling disease or injury to you? They probably wheeled him around in a wheelchair (he wouldnt know whats going on, but its not like brain death where you have to be hooked up to machines constantly), and Anne probably sat around and hoped desperately that one day he would regain some conscious functions. There's your explanation if you need a direct one so bad. She shows up in silent hill, it gives her that thing she really hoped for. Not a complete revival of Frank, just that little bit she hoped for back before he died to make it more real and meaningful to her; basically it would resonate with actual hopes she had at one point, and she never bothered to hope for a complete return to normalcy because that was so far from possible it was inconceivable; more than she could hope for in other words.

Sewell probably thought Frank was dead. Maybe Frank had some good ass surgeons. Have you ever beat someone to death? How would you know for certain if you killed someone when you only had minutes or seconds before other guards showed up and all you had was a crude shiv and a baton? I don't know how easy it is to tell someone is dead other than extreme situations like they're completely dismembered or beginning to decompose. Pulse doesnt necessarily mean it's over. They got him to a hospital in time and managed to "save" him, to some degree.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Mar 2011
Notes left: 283
Actually, a monster permanently strapped to a gurney might have worked. But as I said, the paralysis and vegetative state weren't even important for the plot, and leaving them out would have actually smoothed out some inconsistencies. I am willing to be shown otherwise, of course, but for now I agree the wheelchair monster (and what he represented) was a superfluous addition to the narrative.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jan 2005
Notes left: 217
Last seen at: BEHIND YOU!
There's so much anger in this thread about Wheelchair man, I'm almost afraid to read all the posts...

Anyway. I was weirded out by Wheelchair Man as well throughout the game. I had an idea it was Frank when I realized how Frank continues to give you tips of life throughout the game (I'm guessing he's the voice over character because when he says "Murphy Run!" its the same line from the beginning of the game when Murphy starts to run away from the void. Perhaps have has the same helpful role in Anne's Otherworld and since they intertwine that's why the little girl sees the Wheelchair man (because the little girl is Anne) and why Murphy see's him as well. Kinda like a more helpful Valtiel. (With less God's stuck in their tummies)

As for the end Boss, I really felt like Murphy had suppressed what happened that day because he felt guilt over it happening. I felt like the end boss was his way of coming to turns with what happened. ALSO you slowly pull the tubes on this guy and then Anne sees you directly after it happened. Perhaps that was what the town wanted Anne to see. Murphy pulling the plugs on her father? We do she her directly after the boss fight and she's ready to kill you.

I don't know, I liked that there was just a little bit of hope in the Wheelchair guy throughout the game. It kept me guessing and was a nice way to introduce tips (I mean, its mentioned SO many times that Frank would help anyone). I also believe its hinted that Murphy really respected Frank.

I also understand why Sewell's wouldn't kill Murphy himself. The prison notes and monsters teach us that the guards at this prison are pretty horrible to their prisoners. It doesn't seem like this is a place where anyone would take a prisoners word over a guard. And normally prisons don't have trails so to speak. A riot starts and Frank dies. If no one is caught, they get off like it was something that happened in the riot. If Murphy is caught, its a guard's words over his, no matter if he's under investigation or not. I think the notes tried very hard to set that up as the environment. (Ie Juggernaut holding Prison Minions on leashes). And when he checks up on the situation to see if its been done or not.

ESPECIALLY if Sewell says something like, "And I think I heard Murphy talking about Napier and how he felt his son's murder was his fault." OR if Sewell has his hands in dirty dealings he could talk another prisoner into saying Murphy was guilty of Napier. Then it looks like Murphy may have lost it and if Sewell really has his hands in the pot so to speak, he could do all that and try and cover it up with favors.

Just theories, but who knows :P

KingCrimson wrote:
Actually, a monster permanently strapped to a gurney might have worked.
But Mary's end game form is almost like that and who wants to copy the same old idea and design?

KingCrimson wrote:
{...} wheelchair monster (and what he represented) was a superfluous addition to the narrative.

So was Valtiel and he's still bad ass! >:)

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Nov 2010
Notes left: 993
Last seen at: Kentucky
My biggest disappointment were the characters.
None of them felt fleshed-out. What happened to Howard? He was great, & we see him only what? Three times? He just goes away.
Of course, where's Dj Ricks? He was there for a few moments & then permanently vanishes.

It seemed like the story was trying to go a dozen different directions; so nothing felt 100% complete.
The details of the story were seemingly witheld rather than sprinkled lightly in a subtle-manner for us to decipher. It was confusing & fragmented instead of mysterious.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
My biggest disappointment were the characters.
None of them felt fleshed-out. What happened to Howard? He was great, & we see him only what? Three times? He just goes away.
Of course, where's Dj Ricks? He was there for a few moments & then permanently vanishes.


In fairness, those characters really don't matter to the greater story at large. It's Murphy, Anne, Coleridge, and Sewell you should be worried about.

And we don't get a motive for why Sewell wanted Frank dead. Shit.

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Nov 2010
Notes left: 993
Last seen at: Kentucky
I think Sewell wanted Frank dead because:
Frank was going to try and expose Sewell's illegal actions as a prison guard. I found a letter from Frank to one of the top-guys at Ryall. It brought up Sewell's actions and was prompting an internal investigation. So before much could be done, Sewell manipulated Murphy into taking care of Frank, thus keeping Sewell's true nature in the dark. He got away clean.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Ah, that makes sense. I know I didn't find every document, so...

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1627
KingCrimson wrote:
My point is this: if they had simply made Frank die right there in the showers, all the game would be missing was the wheelchair monster. Anne would still have her hatred, Murphy would still have his guilt. The whole vegetative state thing is plot-hole-inducing for no real purpose other than having yet another Silent Hill baddie on wheels.

Actually, I think Frank being in a vegetative state played a big part of Anne's story and her feelings towards Murphy. It wouldn't have been easy for Anne to see Frank like that. I know when my mum had her stroke it hurt to see her because of the contrast of how she used to be compared to what she became; a once strong woman was reduced to a weak and feeble shell of a human who could barely even lift her own head for a drink of water. Even now it hurts thinking about that. Thankfully mum is better now, and while that was no-where near as bad as what Frank and Anne went through I can understand how it must have hurt for her to see her father like that. So, I think the story would have suffered if Frank had died then and there. Anne wasn't just trying to avenge his death, but for the long and drawn out time between his beating and death, as well as her own pain at seeing someone she loved (a good man) being reduced to a vegetative state.

As for some of the original points of this thread; I would also like to know more about DJ Ricks. I like Aura's suggestion that he's stuck in a sort of loop/purgatory because he hasn't the courage to face whatever it is that's keeping him there.
I would also like to see some more of what Anne went through, but I did like that her feelings had an affect on Murphy's experiences; the wheelman, the little girl, and part of the boogeyman. I also think the final boss might have been more of her creation that his. It seems quite odd to me that Murphy would be the one pulling the plug on a monster that represents Anne's father when Murphy probably didn't know much about what happened to Frank afterwards (other than feeling guilty over what happened). Hell, the whole "pulling the plug" thing probably stems from Anne actually considering doing just that to her father at some stage.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
Notes left: 3339
Last seen at: Kentucky
Frank being in a vegetative state helped to lead Murphy (and Anne, as well). There are many times (especially in UV) you can see wheelchair marks. Following these marks leads you to areas where you need to go for side quests or the story itself. Throughout the game (and even when Murphy was at Ryall and Frank was alive) Frank serves as Murphy's guide and support. You hear his voice throughout the game, and you follow him as The Wheelman on a wild goose chase very often. He's helping Murphy to face his past, as well as the truth, and all of this is helping Anne to have resolution as well.

I loved the ending when Anne talks about Frank. It was very emotional, and one of the most emotional scenes I've seen in the franchise. All of the pieces come together, and you find out so much in those last few minutes.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Mar 2011
Notes left: 283
I can imagine plenty of ways that Anne's story could be heartbreaking and Frank's guidance just as strong without requiring him to be a vegetable. His prolonged state before dying is hard to reconcile with Murphy being apparently unaware he was alive, as well as Frank never attempting to clear Murphy's name and reveal Sewell's crime. Unless by "vegetable" Anne meant he was in a persistent vegetative state, in which case he might as well have been dead, since only the brainstem is functional and he wouldn't have a personality, never mind the ability to operate an electronic wheelchair. I can appreciate the intention of giving the audience reason to pity Frank, but his fate at Sewell's hands was reason enough in my opinion, and would have led un-problematically to Murphy's imprisonment.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 03 Apr 2012
Notes left: 15
I took them both as people - or even manifestations that were once people - serving the town in the sense that they never found their "own way" out and became parts of the town. Howard directs Murphy along rather nonchalantly, as if he doesn't really care but has to anyway, without complaining. The act of delivering mail is rather symbolic to this. Ricks states he's been trying to find someone to help him escape for a while, but all he ever does is provide Silent Hill with a radio personality, also directing Murphy, in a sense.

Here I am a bit more wary, but When Murphy is in the otherworld prison he is briefly locked up and Frank's wheelchair form looks through the bars at him before wheeling away. Murphy screams and screams, and we are given the impression that he is UNDER THE IMPRESSION that he is going to be left to forever be in the role of prisoner in silent hill, as if he didn't figure out his business there properly or fast enough, so he will forever remain until he maybe gets another chance - or doesn't.

I've always gotten the sense that silent hill can kill you, or free you, but that some of the people drawn to the town don't descry such "concrete" fates. I can go into further detail with more evidence for both Ricks and Howard, but I feel i've presented enough for now.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
Notes left: 3339
Last seen at: Kentucky
KingCrimson wrote:
I can imagine plenty of ways that Anne's story could be heartbreaking and Frank's guidance just as strong without requiring him to be a vegetable. His prolonged state before dying is hard to reconcile with Murphy being apparently unaware he was alive, as well as Frank never attempting to clear Murphy's name and reveal Sewell's crime. Unless by "vegetable" Anne meant he was in a persistent vegetative state, in which case he might as well have been dead, since only the brainstem is functional and he wouldn't have a personality, never mind the ability to operate an electronic wheelchair. I can appreciate the intention of giving the audience reason to pity Frank, but his fate at Sewell's hands was reason enough in my opinion, and would have led un-problematically to Murphy's imprisonment.


He was apparently in a persistent vegetative state. He couldn't even control his own bodily functions, as said by Anne. Also, I didn't notice this until later, that he actually gets stabbed in the neck, which could lead to him being completely brain-dead. To be honest, I'd rather someone in my family be dead than in a state like that, and I'm sure it's extremely difficult to go through. It would hurt so much to see someone who was once active and able to enjoy their life now having to be taken care of by their own child. I'm sure during that time it just ate up at her so much that somebody caused this man to have to be in this state, and that she'd have to witness it. Sure, they could have shown it in another way, but I think the fact that he was a vegetable makes it so much more impacting. The fact that this man survived and had to go through agony, and his family had to, as well, shows just how much Murphy's revenge affected so many people that he never would have dreamed about.

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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 16 Oct 2010
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Yeah, finding out what really happened to him and what Anne had to go through in result of it was heartbreaking. Tears were shed.

I also don't think it's all that big a dead (not saying anyone does) that his manifestation is in a wheelchair. If you look at the actual Wheelman, he very much represents a human body in paralyzed, non-functional slouch that is common in people that have experienced spinal cord or brain damage. The only thing getting that wheelchair moving is his finger clicking that button, and it's not real important if he would've been able to move that finger or not. He doesn't even turn his head, from what I can remember. What matter is the impression he has on the player and how his visual/metaphorical image plays well in the story.

He's going to have to get around somehow, right? For some reason, watching him move himself around like that spoke a lot for him as an entity in the game. Just the way he looks in relation to how and when he appears in the game speak a lot about his purpose. He was probably one of my favorite elements in Downpour. I learned tons more from him than Howard and Ricks combined, though, and felt much more impacted by his presence, and he doesn't even talk.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Monster!Frank can move himself around for the same reason Pyramid Head impales Maria through her fucking stomach. The symbolism of the Otherworld exaggerates, and while Frank Coleridge is a vegetable in real life, his memory is a spiritual guide for both Murphy and Anne. Therefore, wheelchair and an opposable thumb.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
Notes left: 3339
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I'm glad they made him portrayed as close to a vegetative state as they could by using a button. If he had been actually rolling it with his arms, then that would have been a major turn off from his movement, then.

Also, I didn't see this above but...@thy_butcher: I believe that's totally it. It's a bit obvious. You find those memos scattered mainly through the Centennial Building (I think) and at the end of the game Sewell says, "You should have kept your fucking mouth shut, Frank!"

I know many of you think that Howard and DJ Ricks share the same fate of being stuck almost in a loophole like Murphy in Ending C. I can see it for DJ Ricks, but not so much for Howard. They both seem to know what's going on, but Howard just doesn't come off as a guy that's stuck there. He's so calm and collected, like nothing is affecting him, but DJ Ricks is the opposite. Still, it's odd how you hear both of their voices in Ending C. I'd love to have a DLC (Maybe playing through Anne's story, kind of like a BFaW deal) to find out more information, or maybe another comic that has Howard in it. That would be wonderful.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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Aerith Gainsborough wrote:
I'm glad they made him portrayed as close to a vegetative state as they could by using a button. If he had been actually rolling it with his arms, then that would have been a major turn off from his movement, then.

Also, I didn't see this above but...@thy_butcher: I believe that's totally it. It's a bit obvious. You find those memos scattered mainly through the Centennial Building (I think) and at the end of the game Sewell says, "You should have kept your fucking mouth shut, Frank!"

I know many of you think that Howard and DJ Ricks share the same fate of being stuck almost in a loophole like Murphy in Ending C. I can see it for DJ Ricks, but not so much for Howard. They both seem to know what's going on, but Howard just doesn't come off as a guy that's stuck there. He's so calm and collected, like nothing is affecting him, but DJ Ricks is the opposite. Still, it's odd how you hear both of their voices in Ending C. I'd love to have a DLC (Maybe playing through Anne's story, kind of like a BFaW deal) to find out more information, or maybe another comic that has Howard in it. That would be wonderful.


I thought it was pretty much outright stated thanks to the memos that's why Sewell wanted Frank dead; I don't really think there's much room for interpretation there.

That being said, I agree about Howard. DJ Ricks definitely seemed to be stuck and looping--"record after record after record"--but Howard seemed... not exactly sinister, but more in-the-know, more in tune with Silent Hill itself.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
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^Same, but I was clarifying. ;)

Right. It just makes me wonder if Howard is just merely a manifestation of the town.

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Aug 2007
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Aerith Gainsborough wrote:

Right. It just makes me wonder if Howard is just merely a manifestation of the town.


I spent the game assuming this to be the case. The way he seems to be able to teleport around locations, when (as far as I can remember), the other characters can't just backs this up.

I got the impression they were setting him up as a way for the town to guide people in, or something to that effect. James immediately sprang to mind when he started talking about letters.

I haven't read the comic, so I'm not sure if his appearance there might change my view of him.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: A satisfying conclu- hey, wait a minute

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1627
AuraTwilight wrote:
Monster!Frank can move himself around for the same reason Pyramid Head impales Maria through her fucking stomach. The symbolism of the Otherworld exaggerates, and while Frank Coleridge is a vegetable in real life, his memory is a spiritual guide for both Murphy and Anne. Therefore, wheelchair and an opposable thumb.

^This. Just because real Frank probably couldn't move doesn't mean that his otherworld apparition has to be exactly like real world Frank. That...wouldn't be very scary... Anyway, we've already seen otherworld exaggerations of things in other games, so why wouldn't wheelie Frank be similarly exaggerated? Very little in the otherworld seems to work quite like it would in the real world.


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