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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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thy_butcher wrote:
What?
Ending B is wrong? It's what I got... I liked it a lot.
What the hell?
And everything in the "extras" menu can be cast aside completely?

Wow. That's sooo weird...


It's not that Ending B is wrong; it's that Sewell saying Murphy couldn't kill Napier in that ending is wrong.

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Nov 2010
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^ Ohh ok, my mistake. Sorry I misread.

That issue with the "extras" is still very agitating.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Mar 2011
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Yuki wrote:
thy_butcher wrote:
What?
Ending B is wrong? It's what I got... I liked it a lot.
What the hell?
And everything in the "extras" menu can be cast aside completely?

Wow. That's sooo weird...


It's not that Ending B is wrong; it's that Sewell saying Murphy couldn't kill Napier in that ending is wrong.


I'd like Tom to explain why it is wrong. Whether Murphy could go through with killing Napier or not doesn't affect any other aspect of that ending.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 23 Dec 2009
Notes left: 207
Last seen at: Silent Hill.
KingCrimson wrote:
I'd like Tom to explain why it is wrong. Whether Murphy could go through with killing Napier or not doesn't affect any other aspect of that ending.

If I understand how the ending is achieved, then it's "wrong" because Ending B requires you to kill lots of monsters. I got Ending B the first time I played and while I was looking through the statistics I noticed I had killed 95 monsters.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Aug 2009
Notes left: 273
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I believe the whole Downpour experience is just like what SH2 told us, each one sees it in his/her own way. Maybe Howard and Ricks are just a product of Silent Hill's delusion that it casts on the protagonists.

There weren't any citizens whom we encountered. Just those two which is weird cause those two are the only ones whom are living a normal life there. I view Howard as an equivalent to Dark Alessa in Silent Hill film, he shows up briefly, gives obscure messages and then leaves and pretends to be enjoying his time here and he's got "Mail to Deliver", this remind me of the film "The Box" where that mysterious man with a portion of his face/jaw is missing doesn't work for his own, he's programmed by someone else from an unknown origin and nature and he's just got "boxes to deliver" and each box is a test to the family it's given to.

Howard is probably got "tests" and "instructions" to give to those who pass through Silent Hill so whether he's a spirit (the sudden disappearance when we first meet him) or a product of Murphy's delusion that is caused by Silent Hill, he's there to lead us somewhere and that's what we all agree about.

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Nov 2010
Notes left: 998
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^ What about Homer, the homeless man?


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SHH Cult Subscriber
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 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
I got the impression that Murphy can only encounter other people if they have something to offer him, be it direct assistance (Homer's shortcuts, Ricks's boat) or insight.

Howard guides Murphy to the Centennial Building and St. Maria's.
Sater: "Murder's a mortal sin. You go to hell for murder!"
Cunningham
[Reveal] Spoiler:
provides a parallel to Murphy's own quest for vengeance, making it unmistakably clear how such a destructive cycle turns about and consumes a person.

The nun at St. Maria's
[Reveal] Spoiler:
tells Murphy that he must claim the Bogeyman as his own; that he created this monster and he can't claim his freedom until he accepts that.


Somehow, even with this many supporting characters, Downpour didn't feel overly crowded to me. Each character was useful and efficiently used. Not at all the way I felt about Homecoming. ;)


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
I concur with JuriDawn pretty much entirely. Not that I at all believe the nun is
[Reveal] Spoiler:
a real person
but whatever.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Aug 2009
Notes left: 273
Last seen at: Iraq
fudgestix wrote:
After what Tomm posted at SHC I'm inclined not to take anything from the extras as evidence.

Quote:
The bonus gallery text wasn't written by Gomez, Waltz, or myself. So any weird points should not be taken as truth necessarily. Grains of salt please.


I don't know what kind of development team is that to make killing Napier by Murphy a mistake on ending B and making the extras menu be written by someone else that nobody else is aware of what's written and then release the whole game.

If that's how Vatra is then I really wish they don't get linked to Silent Hill EVER again. I guess SH does need better treatment from Konami, not just MGS.

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SHH Cult Subscriber
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 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
AuraTwilight wrote:
Not that I at all believe the nun is. . .

At least as much as Howard, I would think.

Rino, Yuki, Cyrus: Murphy's inability to
[Reveal] Spoiler:
kill Napier
in ending B isn't a mistake or a bad decision. Saying that Murphy's act of mercy toward a human being is inconsistent with his killing of monsters is kind of an apples to oranges statement. One was a cowering unarmed man, the others are nightmare monsters that want to eat his face. Just because Murphy defended himself with deadly force against inhuman creatures to reach ending B doesn't make him obviously a murderer, especially since the shower incident took place long before his decisions to kill or spare the monsters.

The only thing that really matters as far as determining whether or not Murphy is a murderer is
[Reveal] Spoiler:
his decision to kill or spare Cunningham.

That's the decision that makes a real difference with regards to Murphy's character and his treatment of other people, which is why endings A and B are so similar.

We could really break down the main endings for this game just like the original Silent Hill's:

Good+: Happy ending #1, in which Harry gets his daughter back and saves Cybil, though accomplishing both requires most players to consult a strategy guide since throwing the aglaophotis at her while she shoots at you is rather counter-intuitive.
Ending A (Forgiveness): Happy ending #1, in which
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Murphy gains his freedom and Cunningham lets go of the past.
Acquiring this ending requires most players to consult a strategy guide since leaving off the finishing blow on downed monsters in a Silent Hill game is rather counter-intuitive.

Good: Happy ending #2, in which Harry gets his daughter back but fails to save Cybil. A variation of Good+, though Cybil's death makes the victory bittersweet.
Ending B (Truth and Justice): Happy ending #2, in which
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Murphy gains his freedom but Cunningham continues her quest for vengeance.

A variation of ending A, though the implication that
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Cunningham will probably kill or at least attack Sewell, which will lead to her own arrest
makes the victory either bittersweet or ultra satisfying, depending on how much you liked Cunningham compared to how much you'd really like to see Sewell get what's coming to him.

Bad+:Tragic ending #1. When last we see our protagonist, he's still in Silent Hill.
Ending C (Full Circle): Tragic ending #1. When last we see our protagonist, he's still in Silent Hill.

Bad:Tragic ending #2. We see Harry dead in his Jeep. It appears that the entire game was a dying dream.
Ending D (Execution): Tragic ending #2. We see Murphy
[Reveal] Spoiler:
strapped down for a lethal injection. It appears that the entire game was a dying dream or a delusion.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
At least as much as Howard, I would think.


I sincerely don't think so. Aside from not getting a name or characterization, she never really talks TO Murphy, but AT him, not responding to him as if she were a recording.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
Hm, I suppose I saw it more like the nun was ignoring whichever questions Murphy asked that indicated his perception of something strange, thus reaffirming that what Murphy sees is not necessarily the reality that even the people he encounters are witnessing. Murphy looks around at the destruction inside the orphanage and asks the nun if there was an earthquake. She pauses as if he's said something strange, but politely moves on to relevant business. It may seem like she's ignoring him, but I view it as her simply being more polite than Laura in SH2, who would've asked Murphy if he was blind or somethin'. ;)

The reason I compare the nun to Howard is that she seems to be aware of the nature of the town; she doesn't seem surprised or concerned that Murphy is seeing strange things. She holds back on the complete truth, but still points Murphy toward the next step in his journey by fulfilling her specific role within the town. As the postman delivers a letter to Murphy, the nun stands at his side and offers her condolences in the morgue at St. Maria's. Howard and the nun are as much set pieces as characters, and it's deliciously unsettling (for me, anyway) to be uncertain as to how much of each they are.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
Notes left: 2523
JuriDawn wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
Not that I at all believe the nun is. . .

At least as much as Howard, I would think.

Rino, Yuki, Cyrus: Murphy's inability to
[Reveal] Spoiler:
kill Napier
in ending B isn't a mistake or a bad decision. Saying that Murphy's act of mercy toward a human being is inconsistent with his killing of monsters is kind of an apples to oranges statement. One was a cowering unarmed man, the others are nightmare monsters that want to eat his face. Just because Murphy defended himself with deadly force against inhuman creatures to reach ending B doesn't make him obviously a murderer, especially since the shower incident took place long before his decisions to kill or spare the monsters.


No. Tomm Hulett specifically stated that:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Sewell stating Murphy did not kill Napier in Ending B was a mistake. He did indeed kill Napier in all endings except for Ending A.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Aug 2009
Notes left: 273
Last seen at: Iraq
Let me ask the most stupidest question ever :P

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Why did Murphy go through all this? if in ending A and B (If it's not a mistake) Murphy didn't kill Napier but Sewell did or he killed Napier as an act of justice and never hurt Anne's father. Why did he go through all this?

Murphy was moved to Wayside prison for a crime he didn't commit as well (Killing Coleridge) so why didn't Sewell go through Silent Hill instead? why not Napier who got a reward that doesn't match the sick crime he committed?

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
Notes left: 3339
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^
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Read the spoiler above yours. Tomm specifically says that Murphy did kill Napier in ALL endings except for A. Regardless, Murphy constantly judged others and wanted revenge, whether he killed Napier or not. For that, he was at fault. He wanted Napier to die. He wanted him to pay for killing his son. In all of the endings except A he kills Napier, successfully acquiring his revenge. Even though he doesn't kill Napier in A, he desired for him to pay and to feel just as bad as he did, and Murphy was judging others (Napier, JP), when he has no right to, because he, in short, has stooped down just as low as they have.

All of this reminds me of Christianity. In Christianity, all sins are equal, whether it be murder, adultery, theft, or any others. In Downpour, both Napier and JP have committed crimes. Even though in Ending A Murphy doesn't kill Napier, he still is judging someone and wants so badly to seek revenge against Napier that it makes him just as vicious and monstrous.

Napier and Sewell probably weren't included because neither of them really feel remorse for their actions. Just about like Eddie in Silent Hill 2. He feels no remorse for killing the dog or shooting the football player. He was in Silent Hill simply to avoid consequences, rather than face them head on.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Aug 2009
Notes left: 273
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Aerith Gainsborough wrote:
^
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Read the spoiler above yours. Tomm specifically says that Murphy did kill Napier in ALL endings except for A. Regardless, Murphy constantly judged others and wanted revenge, whether he killed Napier or not. For that, he was at fault. He wanted Napier to die. He wanted him to pay for killing his son. In all of the endings except A he kills Napier, successfully acquiring his revenge. Even though he doesn't kill Napier in A, he desired for him to pay and to feel just as bad as he did, and Murphy was judging others (Napier, JP), when he has no right to, because he, in short, has stooped down just as low as they have.

All of this reminds me of Christianity. In Christianity, all sins are equal, whether it be murder, adultery, theft, or any others. In Downpour, both Napier and JP have committed crimes. Even though in Ending A Murphy doesn't kill Napier, he still is judging someone and wants so badly to seek revenge against Napier that it makes him just as vicious and monstrous.

Napier and Sewell probably weren't included because neither of them really feel remorse for their actions. Just about like Eddie in Silent Hill 2. He feels no remorse for killing the dog or shooting the football player. He was in Silent Hill simply to avoid consequences, rather than face them head on.


Thanks for your reply.

Well I thought of this too but I was like "This is ridiculous" because I think anyone in his place would want the other side to pay for their crime. Be it someone murdering/raping (or both) your mother or son or sister or little brother or daughter, even your friends, one would still wish they get hurt like they hurt those innocent people.

I mean Napier took an innocent child, probably raped him and then killed him and threw him into the lake and in the end he's just spending his time alone in jail as a sequestered prisoner, I personally don't understand if this is a reward or punishment.

And you mentioned that Sewell and Napier didn't see that world of Silent Hill because they feel no remorse, so are you implying that the whole Downpour experience has occurred in Murphy's head because it's a type of remorse and regret and self-punishment?

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
The point is that Murphy got so obsessed with revenge that it completely distracted him from mourning over his son properly, causing his entire life to fall apart to the point that he got himself arrested on purpose in order to attempt to murder someone, and in even though he doesn't go through with it in most endings, he atleast CONSIDERS killing an innocent man who believed in him and was only ever good to him in order to have an oppurtunity to kill Napier.

That's fucked up, man.

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 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
Yuki wrote:
No. Tomm Hulett specifically stated that:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Sewell stating Murphy did not kill Napier in Ending B was a mistake. He did indeed kill Napier in all endings except for Ending A.

Ah, okay. Since this is the only SH forum I visit, this is the first I've heard of it. (hooray for google) Though frankly, since the mistake was included, I'm afraid it does have to mean that
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Murphy did not kill Napier in ending B.
I understand that the inclusion of that fact was a mistake and not the intention of the writer(s), but it's in the game and therefore true as I experience it.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2939
JuriDawn wrote:
Yuki wrote:
No. Tomm Hulett specifically stated that:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Sewell stating Murphy did not kill Napier in Ending B was a mistake. He did indeed kill Napier in all endings except for Ending A.

Ah, okay. Since this is the only SH forum I visit, this is the first I've heard of it. (hooray for google) Though frankly, since the mistake was included, I'm afraid it does have to mean that
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Murphy did not kill Napier in ending B.
I understand that the inclusion of that fact was a mistake and not the intention of the writer(s), but it's in the game and therefore true as I experience it.


Until the patch, that is. Ba-dam, ching! :)

That's if somehting like that is patch-able, of course.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
Notes left: 3339
Last seen at: Kentucky
The thing is that the legal system (at least the American and many others) doesn't follow the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' approach. Killing someone out of revenge will get someone put in jail, regardless of reasons. We don't take murder lightly. Self-defense is like..the only way one can do it without rotting in a prison cell for the rest of their life. There was another way, which was let Napier rot in prison. Maybe killing him was a reward out of there, or maybe he didn't want to die (he sure seemed to be begging for his life). There are people who are perfectly okay with killing others who killed a member of their family, but it doesn't make it legally (and morally for many) right. If Murphy's entry in the Gallery is correct (which has been stated to be taken with a grain of salt), he actually feels remorse for Napier's death. If he doesn't, well...I guess tough titty. It's the LAW.

I think part of it is Murphy's remorse and self-guilt, yes, but not all of it. I think another contributing factor is simply Anne. Murphy feels self-guilt for Charlie's death. He wasn't watching him, so he feels responsible for his son's death, and his wife blames him, as well. Also, I'm sure he feels some guilt for Frank's death, though it's not really outright stated, he does hear his voice often, and felt sorry for what happened, so it must have affected him at the time, and I'm sure he felt horrible about it. Water is probably mainly influenced by Murphy. His son was found in a lake and he killed Napier in the showers. Water was present when his revenge began and ended. Anne's revenge and remorse also affect Murphy. Anne created the Wheelman monster that Murphy sees. He had no idea that Frank hadn't died and was a vegetable, but she did. She saw him as a broken, lifeless person, pretty much condensed to skin and bone, because he couldn't do anything else but sit there while his life drained away. That's how she saw her father after he was put that way. The man that was once happy and caring, going about his business, has been condensed to the complete opposite, and it kills her inside. You also see various wheelchair marks throughout the games, which lead you to areas you need to go for side-quests and the story, also influenced by Anne that plays homage to Frank's confinement to a Wheelchair, and the fact that Frank is being used to lead both of them to truth and justice. The Bogeyman, I'd say, is inspired by both of them. Both of them judge others. It has nothing to do with how they're judged by others. They both have faults. They both want/ed revenge so badly that it blinded them from properly grieving over the deaths of their loved ones (Aura does a great explanation of this above). They're blinded by hate, and in that hate they judge others and feel the need to take judgment in their own hands, when, in reality, they're being just as monstrous.

Sorry for the wall of text.

@Juri: Wait, I'm confused. I thought Tomm said that Murphy kills Napier in ALL endings except A? o_o

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