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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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JuriDawn wrote:
Yuki wrote:
No. Tomm Hulett specifically stated that:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Sewell stating Murphy did not kill Napier in Ending B was a mistake. He did indeed kill Napier in all endings except for Ending A.

Ah, okay. Since this is the only SH forum I visit, this is the first I've heard of it. (hooray for google) Though frankly, since the mistake was included, I'm afraid it does have to mean that
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Murphy did not kill Napier in ending B.
I understand that the inclusion of that fact was a mistake and not the intention of the writer(s), but it's in the game and therefore true as I experience it.


To each their own. I tend to abide by Word of God, although this is a major error on their part. It's one of the few times I really don't want to agree with the creators.

Aerith: Tomm indeed did say that. But the game itself does not. Juri seems to be of the school of thought that what the creators say about their work is trumped by the work itself.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
Notes left: 3339
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^I see. Another thing I don't get is which part of that dialogue makes it sound like he wasn't referring to Napier. I thought Sewell, when saying "I presented him to you like a fucking Christmas goose, and you can't even finish the job" meant that Sewell presented Napier to him like a goose, and he finds it not fair that he won't finish the job by killing Frank.

Regardless, the fact that Murphy killed Napier is fine with me. I think that gives Murphy more reason to be in Silent Hill, since he actually killed the guy. If he didn't, well...he still did things wrong (wanting to seek revenge in the first place and judging people), but eh...

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Aug 2009
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Aerith Gainsborough wrote:
The thing is that the legal system (at least the American and many others) doesn't follow the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' approach. Killing someone out of revenge will get someone put in jail, regardless of reasons. We don't take murder lightly. Self-defense is like..the only way one can do it without rotting in a prison cell for the rest of their life. There was another way, which was let Napier rot in prison. Maybe killing him was a reward out of there, or maybe he didn't want to die (he sure seemed to be begging for his life). There are people who are perfectly okay with killing others who killed a member of their family, but it doesn't make it legally (and morally for many) right. If Murphy's entry in the Gallery is correct (which has been stated to be taken with a grain of salt), he actually feels remorse for Napier's death. If he doesn't, well...I guess tough titty. It's the LAW.

I think part of it is Murphy's remorse and self-guilt, yes, but not all of it. I think another contributing factor is simply Anne. Murphy feels self-guilt for Charlie's death. He wasn't watching him, so he feels responsible for his son's death, and his wife blames him, as well. Also, I'm sure he feels some guilt for Frank's death, though it's not really outright stated, he does hear his voice often, and felt sorry for what happened, so it must have affected him at the time, and I'm sure he felt horrible about it. Water is probably mainly influenced by Murphy. His son was found in a lake and he killed Napier in the showers. Water was present when his revenge began and ended. Anne's revenge and remorse also affect Murphy. Anne created the Wheelman monster that Murphy sees. He had no idea that Frank hadn't died and was a vegetable, but she did. She saw him as a broken, lifeless person, pretty much condensed to skin and bone, because he couldn't do anything else but sit there while his life drained away. That's how she saw her father after he was put that way. The man that was once happy and caring, going about his business, has been condensed to the complete opposite, and it kills her inside. You also see various wheelchair marks throughout the games, which lead you to areas you need to go for side-quests and the story, also influenced by Anne that plays homage to Frank's confinement to a Wheelchair, and the fact that Frank is being used to lead both of them to truth and justice. The Bogeyman, I'd say, is inspired by both of them. Both of them judge others. It has nothing to do with how they're judged by others. They both have faults. They both want/ed revenge so badly that it blinded them from properly grieving over the deaths of their loved ones (Aura does a great explanation of this above). They're blinded by hate, and in that hate they judge others and feel the need to take judgment in their own hands, when, in reality, they're being just as monstrous.

Sorry for the wall of text.

@Juri: Wait, I'm confused. I thought Tomm said that Murphy kills Napier in ALL endings except A? o_o


Oh, it's perfectly alright to write a wall of text hehe :)

Umm, It's not about the law or anything nor the eye for an eye, it's about a feeling that everyone would have if their loved one was killed so brutally without a single fault or mistake. You're making them look like monsters for wanting revenge while it's human nature to feel such grudge towards those people.

Such people should be executed because they don't deserve to live among good people, their existence only brings more trouble and when they're in prison, most murderers or sex offenders live a fucked up life with no resources and a shitty house (most not all) so taking them to jail as sequestered prisoners would feel like a 5 stars vacation to them.

I agree about the experience being born out of their own feelings and I view it as a way to portray how they feel rather than judgement or punishment to Anne and Murphy. I think the whole story began when Frank died, it could've started when Napier was killed or when Charlie died (just like most SH titles which usually start right after the problem occurs) but it started after Frank was killed and Murphy met Anne as if destiny waited for them to unite so they can see things for what they really are and I believe the aim of this was the truth.

I also feel like the story is partially being told from Anne's perspective. Anne did not know the truth and she wanted to kill a man who didn't kill her father so she has to know what's really going on hence the existence of 2 endings that revolve around a very similar conclusion.

I also believe that just like the world of SH1,3 and Origins was born from Alessa's point of view and misery, and SH2 was born from both James and Mary's point of view and SH4 was born from Walter's point of view, the same thing is here. The world is born from Frank's point of view, so many elements that aren't related to Murphy (like the first otherworld transformation which looks almost exactly like a ship from the 50s, 60s or 70s) as well as Murphy and Anne's, hence the variety of elements in it.


JuriDawn wrote:
Yuki wrote:
No. Tomm Hulett specifically stated that:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Sewell stating Murphy did not kill Napier in Ending B was a mistake. He did indeed kill Napier in all endings except for Ending A.

Ah, okay. Since this is the only SH forum I visit, this is the first I've heard of it. (hooray for google) Though frankly, since the mistake was included, I'm afraid it does have to mean that
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Murphy did not kill Napier in ending B.
I understand that the inclusion of that fact was a mistake and not the intention of the writer(s), but it's in the game and therefore true as I experience it.


Very well said, my thoughts exactly. It doesn't matter what Tomm and the others say, what matters is what we got in the final product. Not everyone is interested in the internet and online forums nor everyone will listen to what the developers will say AFTER the game is released. M

any people if not most of them go to a store, find a nice video game they watched a trailer of or loved it's franchise from a while ago and buy it, they don't bother browsing the web and forums and threads to see IF anyone fixed anything that is said in the game or not.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
Notes left: 3339
Last seen at: Kentucky
Quote:
Umm, It's not about the law or anything nor the eye for an eye, it's about a feeling that everyone would have if their loved one was killed so brutally without a single fault or mistake. You're making them look like monsters for wanting revenge while it's human nature to feel such grudge towards those people.

Such people should be executed because they don't deserve to live among good people, their existence only brings more trouble and when they're in prison, most murderers or sex offenders live a fucked up life with no resources and a shitty house (most not all) so taking them to jail as sequestered prisoners would feel like a 5 stars vacation to them.


^Everyone? I certainly don't think so. In fact, I'm 100% against the death penalty and I'm a Christian Conservative. You can't speak for everyone. I'm sure there are many people, if put in this position, who would and wouldn't feel that way. Also, the laws and morals in many areas go hand in hand. Morality deeply affects law. Whether one is religious or not, they abide by many of the same moral choices of someone religious because of the laws and the norm of their society. So, yes, I do believe the law itself plays a vital role due to the fact that it is affected by the morality of the society one is living in, and [possibly] the morals of that person because of that society.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Aug 2009
Notes left: 273
Last seen at: Iraq
Aerith Gainsborough wrote:
Quote:
Umm, It's not about the law or anything nor the eye for an eye, it's about a feeling that everyone would have if their loved one was killed so brutally without a single fault or mistake. You're making them look like monsters for wanting revenge while it's human nature to feel such grudge towards those people.

Such people should be executed because they don't deserve to live among good people, their existence only brings more trouble and when they're in prison, most murderers or sex offenders live a fucked up life with no resources and a shitty house (most not all) so taking them to jail as sequestered prisoners would feel like a 5 stars vacation to them.


^Everyone? I certainly don't think so. In fact, I'm 100% against the death penalty and I'm a Christian Conservative. You can't speak for everyone. I'm sure there are many people, if put in this position, who would and wouldn't feel that way. Also, the laws and morals in many areas go hand in hand. Morality deeply affects law. Whether one is religious or not, they abide by many of the same moral choices of someone religious because of the laws and the norm of their society. So, yes, I do believe the law itself plays a vital role due to the fact that it is affected by the morality of the society one is living in, and [possibly] the morals of that person because of that society.


I'm a Muslim and there are laws in Islam against murder and all, my whole point is that anybody would feel so hurt and so much hatred for the killer of their own son, daughter, lover ...etc. I guess it's more like common sense. I'm not speaking for everybody, I'm just stating a fact like "If I don't eat, I'll die".

Wouldn't you feel such hatred for someone who kills your own son or someone so dear to you (God forbids)? It's not just about going there and killing them but feeling the need to just hurt them like they hurt you and that person you love and cherish so much. I think whether we do it or not, the feeling is always there.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
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^The thing is that there is a difference between feeling upset for someone killing your loved one and actually wanting to go out and get revenge. I don't think everyone has those thoughts cross their mind. Regardless, it is considered to be wrong for Murphy to want revenge and to judge others, at least seen by others, the Town, and himself. The point is that in Downpour not only is it bad for one on their personal moral level, it, in this circumstance, caused interruptions in the lives of various people, not just Murphy. His revenge caused lots of problems, more than what he had before.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 23 Dec 2009
Notes left: 207
Last seen at: Silent Hill.
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Does anyone know what the WLMN in WLMN FM stands for?

This is something that's been bothering me for a while now.

Does anybody have an answer to this? I've played Downpour once and am on the second playthough, but haven't found a note or memo explaining this.

Also, I heard that Sanchez's prisoner number is DD Q1T. Is there a significance to this?


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2939
^It's just the way radio stations are named. I don't think it means anything.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F

Missing since: 15 Feb 2010
Notes left: 33
Last seen at: Silent Hill, I hope.
Cyrus, I tried looking up DD Q1T and couldn't find anything. Can anyone with experience with looking up legal-related things help us out?

When I looked it up, I was linked to a similar thread at Silent Hill Community. Maybe they'll have the answers there!


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 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
Aerith Gainsborough wrote:
^The thing is that there is a difference between feeling upset for someone killing your loved one and actually wanting to go out and get revenge. I don't think everyone has those thoughts cross their mind. Regardless, it is considered to be wrong for Murphy to want revenge and to judge others, at least seen by others, the Town, and himself.

Murphy isn't going through this experience and suffering a guilty conscience because he wanted revenge. That isn't his crime. A desire for revenge is natural and, more importantly, involuntary. Murphy can't choose how he feels, but he does choose to act on those feelings and take drastic criminal action that results in the death of the man he's fixated on, as well as a good man who had only ever tried to help Murphy.

Not everyone would take Murphy's action, but I agree that most of us would understand his feelings. If someone killed or even injured someone I care about, I probably wouldn't dedicate myself to the cause of vengeance (because I consciously know it to be wrong), but you can bet I'd spend a lot of sleepless nights imagining scenarios in which the offending person is caught and made to pay for their crime. It's human nature.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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I'd also reiterate that even if he doesn't always go through with it, Murphy always makes a deal with a crooked cop to arrange a chance to murder Napier, with the price being that he has to bump off a perfectly innocent man. That's fucked up.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
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JuriDawn wrote:
Aerith Gainsborough wrote:
^The thing is that there is a difference between feeling upset for someone killing your loved one and actually wanting to go out and get revenge. I don't think everyone has those thoughts cross their mind. Regardless, it is considered to be wrong for Murphy to want revenge and to judge others, at least seen by others, the Town, and himself.

Murphy isn't going through this experience and suffering a guilty conscience because he wanted revenge. That isn't his crime. A desire for revenge is natural and, more importantly, involuntary. Murphy can't choose how he feels, but he does choose to act on those feelings and take drastic criminal action that results in the death of the man he's fixated on, as well as a good man who had only ever tried to help Murphy.

Not everyone would take Murphy's action, but I agree that most of us would understand his feelings. If someone killed or even injured someone I care about, I probably wouldn't dedicate myself to the cause of vengeance (because I consciously know it to be wrong), but you can bet I'd spend a lot of sleepless nights imagining scenarios in which the offending person is caught and made to pay for their crime. It's human nature.


When I say revenge, I meant how Murphy wanted to get revenge, and that was murdering Napier. That is wrong. Like I said, there is a difference between feeling upset, and going out and killing someone out of revenge. Sorry that I didn't clarify that very well.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Jul 2011
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AuraTwilight wrote:
I'd also reiterate that even if he doesn't always go through with it, Murphy always makes a deal with a crooked cop to arrange a chance to murder Napier, with the price being that he has to bump off a perfectly innocent man. That's fucked up.


Murphy didn't know what the price would be when he first made the deal. And when Murphy found out he had to kill another person, Sewell made it seem this soon-to-be victim really deserved it, like Napier.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F

Missing since: 18 Apr 2012
Notes left: 7
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
If I understand how the ending is achieved, then it's "wrong" because Ending B requires you to kill lots of monsters. I got Ending B the first time I played and while I was looking through the statistics I noticed I had killed 95 monsters.


Not true. First playthrough, I killed 50 monsters, made both good moral decisions, and got positive endings.

2nd playthrough I killed 0 monsters (to get good behaviour achievement) and made both bad moral decisions. Initially I got both good endings again, but all I needed to do after that was re-load and kill a handful of Juggernauts (6-8) during the Anne chase to get both negative endings (including ending B) instead :)


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
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Glenn wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
I'd also reiterate that even if he doesn't always go through with it, Murphy always makes a deal with a crooked cop to arrange a chance to murder Napier, with the price being that he has to bump off a perfectly innocent man. That's fucked up.


Murphy didn't know what the price would be when he first made the deal. And when Murphy found out he had to kill another person, Sewell made it seem this soon-to-be victim really deserved it, like Napier.


True. Even Murphy says, "I never killed anyone who didn't deserve it." He also asks Sewell if the person he's asking him to kill (Frank) deserves it, which Sewell replies that he does and that 'if I could I would do it myself.' I think Murphy felt like he was doing a just act, since he was being told that these people deserve it. This all goes back to how the Bogeyman represents how Murphy and Anne judge others.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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The point remains, however, that he knew it was Coleridge before he was made to carry out the deed.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1627
AuraTwilight wrote:
The point remains, however, that he knew it was Coleridge before he was made to carry out the deed.

He did? It was easy for the player to figure it out because of all the notes regarding Coleridge and Sewell, but I don't recall seeing anything that would show or indicate that Murphy knew beforehand (unless I missed something, which is entirely possible).


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
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Soulless-Shadow wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
The point remains, however, that he knew it was Coleridge before he was made to carry out the deed.

He did? It was easy for the player to figure it out because of all the notes regarding Coleridge and Sewell, but I don't recall seeing anything that would show or indicate that Murphy knew beforehand (unless I missed something, which is entirely possible).


He meant in the showers themselves; he sees that it is Coleridge there.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Indeed, and he had every intention of carrying it out until the last moment when he had apprehensions. We also don't know how much Murphy actually knew. Did Sewell tell him, "Kill the first cop that comes in here" or "I'm gonna lure in Coleridge, and you're gonna stab the fucker"?

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SHH Cult Subscriber
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 Post subject: Re: There's no such thing as stupid questions ... Downpour F
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
I was under the very strong impression that Murphy was expecting to ambush another prisoner. Sewell tells Murphy that it's going to be just like the last attack in which Napier was the victim. There's no indication that he will be attacking a guard, unless I'm having a major memory lapse.


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