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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
thy_butcher wrote:
I know of the prison in SH2, but it isn't actually there anymore (as far as I know). That thing was in the past.

Yes, it is stated in several sources, among them the Book of Lost Memories, that there were several prisons around the area. One was supposedly where Toluca POW Camp (later Toluca Prison) was later built in 1862 but was closed in 1840. Toluca Prison also closed in the early 1900's and had the Historical Society built above it.
So yes, at least to me, there is no Toluca Prison anymore. It was all in James' head and he pretty much came out behind the historical society. So it is not unlikely that there would be a new prison facility built somewhere in town, not even unlikely that there was another prison in between.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Besides, SH2 introduced Brookhaven as a mental institution. I always wondered why the hell a small town like Silent Hill would need a mental hospital and why it would be situated in the middle of a normal part of the neighborhood with a bowling alley and park nearby, but oh well. Then again Origins didn't help things by adding the Sanitarium. I don't have a problem with Silent Hill expanding but two facilities focusing on mental health in the same town seems like overkill.

The same here, Richard Grady dies around 1961 and Origins doesn't occur until 1976, so it's not unthinkable that until then Cedar's Grove Sanitarium has already closed, as many psychiatric hospitals like this closed down after the 60's. Brookhaven also seems to have a longer history as a regular hospital, having a history back into the 1600's, so it is not that unlikely for both to exist in town.

We also have to consider that small-town is a very undefined word. While in some areas this would refer to a place with only around 100.000 people, the definition of town in itself varies from place to place. If the writers looked into the New England definition of town (or township) they will probably have gotten the image of a much larger place than around other parts of the US.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
Kenji wrote:
To be fair, Australia did start as a continent-sized prison... :wink:

True that. ;)

thy_butcher wrote:
I know of the prison in SH2, but it isn't actually there anymore (as far as I know). That thing was in the past.

I read somewhere that the only parts that remain of the Toluca Prison (in the real world) was the small building the Historical Society was in. However, I don't remember where I read this, so I don't know how reliable the information is.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Inconsistencies plain and simple,but really nothing to ponder too much about. Besides, SH2 introduced Brookhaven as a mental institution. I always wondered why the hell a small town like Silent Hill would need a mental hospital and why it would be situated in the middle of a normal part of the neighborhood with a bowling alley and park nearby, but oh well. Then again Origins didn't help things by adding the Sanitarium. I don't have a problem with Silent Hill expanding but two facilities focusing on mental health in the same town seems like overkill.

Anyone else think that maybe Silent Hill has a slightly higher than normal rate of crazies? I mean, given all the weird shit that happens there...


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Jul 2011
Notes left: 450
The prison in SH2 is different than the prison featured in both Homecoming and Downpour.

I have to say when I heard Overlook Penitentiary was going to be used again I was sort of expecting a SH2 SH3 Brookhaven where the building was preserved with just a few alterations and doors which were previously locked now open. I was a little disappointed that the prison looked completely different, but I know that the psyche of the character can greatly affect the visuals so I guess that is a suitable reason.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 11961
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Glenn wrote:
I have to say when I heard Overlook Penitentiary was going to be used again I was sort of expecting a SH2 SH3 Brookhaven where the building was preserved with just a few alterations and doors which were previously locked now open. I was a little disappointed that the prison looked completely different, but I know that the psyche of the character can greatly affect the visuals so I guess that is a suitable reason.


Can the psyche of a character move an entire prison from Central Silent Hill to an island?

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Jul 2011
Notes left: 450
Droo wrote:
Glenn wrote:
I have to say when I heard Overlook Penitentiary was going to be used again I was sort of expecting a SH2 SH3 Brookhaven where the building was preserved with just a few alterations and doors which were previously locked now open. I was a little disappointed that the prison looked completely different, but I know that the psyche of the character can greatly affect the visuals so I guess that is a suitable reason.


Can the psyche of a character move an entire prison from Central Silent Hill to an island?


I believe so. Alex isn't familiar with Silent Hill. He was forbidden to go there and likely heard a lot of rumors. Who knows, maybe he thought that the prison was in Central Silent Hill.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 11961
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Except that the events of Homecoming aren't all in his mind in all but one of the endings. So it doesn't matter whether he knew where the prison was or not.

_________________
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"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
Last seen at: Katz Street
Silent Hill isn't some geographic canvas, except in rare cases involving strong Otherworld influence.

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WARNING: Some Parts of Reality May Seem Violent or Cruel.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 24 Nov 2011
Notes left: 398
Look, it's just an inconsistency plain and simple, okay? Yeah, we could sit around conjuring up a bevy of theories but we all know what it is. If you want storyline reasons as for why it's different there are many you can come up with such as Silent Hill warping reality or whatever or you can assume everything in Alex's journey was just a dream as that one ending implied and there was no prison. You can come up with whatever you want to rationalize it. It doesn't matter.

Just don't use too much brainpower trying to overanalyze something that's an obvious map hiccup. Even then, it's not a big deal. This sort of stuff isn't uncommon in the video game industry.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 11961
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
It's not a "map hiccup". It's about the location of a gigantic prison that features heavily in the plot of two games not even being able to remain consistent from one game to the very next installment. It bothers me because it shows just how sloppy the developers are becoming with the town's layout.

_________________
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"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
Last seen at: Katz Street
Valve admitted to and said way before hand that they were gonna retcon the prison's location. Not that you can tell it's the same prison in the first place, but there ya go. Who cares about consistency anymore..

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WARNING: Some Parts of Reality May Seem Violent or Cruel.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Sep 2009
Notes left: 491
Silent Fantasy wrote:
Valve admitted to and said way before hand that they were gonna retcon the prison's location. Not that you can tell it's the same prison in the first place, but there ya go. Who cares about consistency anymore..


Droo cares. I kinda care.

Also, Valve? Hm?

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
Last seen at: Katz Street
I care too, it wasn't me seriously asking. lol
And shit, meant Vatra. XD Valve is awsome though. lol

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WARNING: Some Parts of Reality May Seem Violent or Cruel.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 20 Sep 2012
Notes left: 1
Last seen at: CT
I'm unemployed right now so I decided to run through all my Silent Hill games again. I purchased Downpour last week. I have to admit I was sorely disappointed in this outing. The side quests made running through Silent Hill a LITTLE bit more enjoyable, but it made it feel like GTA: Silent Hill. I also read somewhere in the forums that a developer who worked on The Suffering (which I hated so much I didn't even bother finishing) worked on Downpour and I think it showed (a little too much). Once I got out of the monastery I only finished the game just to see what ending I would get (B because I didn't know finishing off monsters reduced your score, heh). Great soundtrack from a non Yamaoka contribution though, even the Jonathan Davis song in the credits wasn't all that bad.

I'd have to say I enjoyed Homecoming more. It's not without flaws but I liked the environments better. The problem with the series that's becoming increasingly more noticeable is it is suffering from Lost syndrome - they are progressively adding too much into the story and leaving other things unanswered.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
Last seen at: Katz Street
Except... Lost is horrible.
I do see your point, and it does seem like they try to juggle multiple storylines kinda lazily since SH4. Downpour does have it's good parts and does exercise the brain a bit if analyzed, just not compared to the original four games or SM.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Sep 2012
Notes left: 86
Last seen at: In Walter Sullivan's mind
Glenn wrote:
Scares- Homecoming missed a lot of pop scares. I felt like the atmosphere and the quick scares were great in Downpour


Yea, but Silent Hill has always been above the cheap generic pop-scare technique.

If we're talking steadily creepy atmosphere and foreboding ambiance, gotta give it to Homecoming... unless you'd consider typical forest noises, the character's own footsteps, and the exaggeratedly loud rustling sound of his clothes as he runs, as scary :wink:

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Jul 2011
Notes left: 450
the konami code wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Scares- Homecoming missed a lot of pop scares. I felt like the atmosphere and the quick scares were great in Downpour


Yea, but Silent Hill has always been above the cheap generic pop-scare technique.

If we're talking steadily creepy atmosphere and foreboding ambiance, gotta give it to Homecoming... unless you'd consider typical forest noises, the character's own footsteps, and the exaggeratedly loud rustling sound of his clothes as he runs, as scary :wink:


SH2 and 3 both use the "cheap generic pop-scare technique." Of course they don't rely on that method as the games would be crap, but they are implemented here and there. I like tension mixed with an occasional "pop."


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Sep 2012
Notes left: 86
Last seen at: In Walter Sullivan's mind
Glenn wrote:
the konami code wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Scares- Homecoming missed a lot of pop scares. I felt like the atmosphere and the quick scares were great in Downpour


Yea, but Silent Hill has always been above the cheap generic pop-scare technique.

If we're talking steadily creepy atmosphere and foreboding ambiance, gotta give it to Homecoming... unless you'd consider typical forest noises, the character's own footsteps, and the exaggeratedly loud rustling sound of his clothes as he runs, as scary :wink:


SH2 and 3 both use the "cheap generic pop-scare technique." Of course they don't rely on that method as the games would be crap, but they are implemented here and there. I like tension mixed with an occasional "pop."


oh they use them, but definitely sparingly. Consider the support those pop scares had (in SH2 & 3) from the unsettling imagery, morbid notes, twisted creatures and random sounds and music. It all sets you up to really jump when they happen. I didn't get that from DP. It was just like "Oh, the door slammed" or "oh, I hear birds". In other words, there was no lasting residual fear after they happened, IMO

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
Last seen at: Katz Street
Downpour still set up ambience and atmosphere better than Homecoming.
Homecoming did nothing for me, and Downpour is the first game to make me feel unease in years, even if only a little compare to the originals when I was younger (and not jaded).

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour

Missing since: 16 Oct 2012
Notes left: 6
I would definately pick Downpour over Homecoming. I thought Homecoming was the worst in the series aswell ; i didnt like the combat system, i didnt like the main character and the scenery was a bit boring aswell... Where as in Downpour i totally loved Murphy, the scenery was freaking awesome, the story was much more interesting and it felt so much more like a Silent Hill game to me.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Homecoming vs Downpour
     
         
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Missing since: 16 Oct 2012
Notes left: 157
Last seen at: Portland
Downpour, durr.

Haven't finished Homecoming myself yet, but I have seen the entire game all the way through to have an opinion on it from an analytical perspective.

Both games have elements that I like and dislike. However, the major thing that I always focus on when I play a Silent Hill game is whether the characters are interesting, and if the story is good. In this case, Downpour was a better narrative for me. It had a likable protagonist, and some interesting side characters that I would've liked to know more about. The story was interesting, the dialogue was amazing and felt natural. To me, even when dealing with a heartless bastard like Sewell, the characters still felt believable and real.

Homecoming... The protagonist was just about all it had going for it. I didn't care about Elle, Wheeler was okay, but everyone else was either boring as hell or were as believable as a James Bond villain. The gore didn't fit the tone of the series, which as a result felt like it was drawing more inspiration from the movie than the actual games. At the same time, it also felt like they were Trying Too Hard to be like all of the cool kids, and going so far as to copy a plot twist from its predecessor. It had massive potential, but was wasted on account of that twist which, at the risk of sounding dramatic, seriously ruined the game's story for me.

Yeah, some people will say that Downpour "didn't feel like a Silent Hill game" like Homecoming did, but that's because Homecoming copied too many elements from the past games. It didn't take as many risks, with the exception of the excessive violence for shock value. I've got a strong stomach for violence, but for a Silent Hill game? It felt terribly out of place. Downpour returned to the more subtle gore, revealing only the most violent scenes at the beginning and end of the game, which I always thought was interesting.

All in all, Downpour didn't seem to rely on the previous games in order to establish itself. It told a story that we had never seen in a Silent Hill game before. It also did its own thing with the environment and combat and character archetypes, and it worked for me. Homecoming felt like it was being watered down (pun not intended) by its efforts to be one of the Cool Kids and tripped on its shoelaces.

Poor Homecoming.


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