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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 May 2009
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"When I say "Cult" and religion I'm technically adressing to everything related to it's mythos and hierarchy within the Order itself. Not about only Alessa and the God.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say. The influence of the cult (Alessa's otherworld et.c.) is something that made all of the first four games, and even Homecoming, what they were.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Quote:
That would basically mean: ''We're out of ideas, so we're making original concepts and marketing them as Silent Hill''.


Wait, so when you're OUT OF IDEAS, you make ORIGINAL ones?

Goddamn, people need to be out of ideas more often.

Quote:
If that's all you think is left of Silent Hill, then why not make a new series?
Want "complete freedom"? Make your own original IP.


Because Silent Hill is about the themes, concepts, story arcs, and presentation more than whether or not the games link up to each other. You can be a Silent Hill game without being related to the original three games or anything. Hell, before SH3 came out a lot of people though SH1 and SH2 were separate universes involving the same town.

As long as "Silent Hill" or "the Otherworld" exists, who cares about continuity? Shouldn't every game be able to stand alone?

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When I'm playing a game called Silent Hill, I want it to feature the town called Silent Hill. That's not something you can reimagine with each game that comes out. And it's mythology is something that can exist with or without the cult (SH2 and SH4).


The town can look different and be reimagined if it has to. Most of the games don't feature the same locales at all despite it being a 'small town'. Might as WELL reimagine it, if you're going to reimagine anything.

The mythology is part and parcel with the cult. The cult drove the entirety of SH4 and its rituals factor into one of James' endings. Don't confuse the presence of the cult with the presence of its cultists.

Quote:
When I say "Cult" and religion I'm technically adressing to everything related to it's mythos and hierarchy within the Order itself. Not about only Alessa and the God.

The way I see it, some aspects of it became obsolete when Silent Hill 3 happened. Though perhaps (and more than likely) people are upset about the Order because Homecoming made them bloodthirsty nutheads that created another religion that shamed the previous. I don't really know.

But Silent Hill 4 is the only game that made it right. And that's what I'd like to see happening again. If it wasn't for Walter's story we wouldn't even know anything about the inside.


I agree entirely. Reiterating what I said above, the cult itself isn't important; it's how it motivates the characters, like Walter, that should be focused on.

Good stories aren't about the concepts or ideas. Good stories are about how characters interact with those concepts. The MacGuffin never "drives" the story.

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That's exactly what I've been trying to say. The influence of the cult (Alessa's otherworld et.c.) is something that made all of the first four games, and even Homecoming, what they were.


Really? I'd wager that barring a single ending, Silent Hill 2 would be basically exactly the same without it. Similarly, SH4 would be mostly the same without it so long as you maintain that Walter was abused and abandoned as a child.

You can replace the Order with basically any religion so long as it meets the equivalent of Satanic Ritual Abuse on Alessa. The cult doesn't matter in of itself.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 May 2009
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AuraTwilight wrote:
I wrote:
That would basically mean: ''We're out of ideas, so we're making original concepts and marketing them as Silent Hill''.


Wait, so when you're OUT OF IDEAS, you make ORIGINAL ones?

Goddamn, people need to be out of ideas more often.


Excuse me. I gambled on your deduction ability being good.
Here, allow me to point it out more clearly: ''We're out of ideas regarding Silent Hill, so we're making original concepts that have nothing to do with Silent Hill and marketing them as Silent fucking Hill!''

AuraTwilight wrote:
I wrote:
That's exactly what I've been trying to say. The influence of the cult (Alessa's otherworld et.c.) is something that made all of the first four games, and even Homecoming, what they were.


Really? I'd wager that barring a single ending, Silent Hill 2 would be basically exactly the same without it. Similarly, SH4 would be mostly the same without it so long as you maintain that Walter was abused and abandoned as a child.

You can replace the Order with basically any religion so long as it meets the equivalent of Satanic Ritual Abuse on Alessa. The cult doesn't matter in of itself.


No actually there's no need to replace the cult. You can completely remove it from the series (and you should, SH3 pretty much wrapped it's role up). But would the otherworld as we see it in SH2 exist without the practices of the cult and Alessa's tampering with it? Unless we're talking reboot, then no. Could they have done it before releasing SH2? Probably yes, but that's not the case. Now where does the series stand?
And don't bring up the 0rigins and (supposedly) Downpour retcon, 'cause once you start relying on bad writing mechanisms you should simply put the series out of it's misery.

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
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Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
I don't think Homecoming contradicted the series canon besides a bit of wackiness regarding Central Silent Hill's layout.

Then again, it's no more egregious than, oh let's say, moving the entire prison from CSH to an island in Toluca Lake with nary an explanation.

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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Quote:
But would the otherworld as we see it in SH2 exist without the practices of the cult and Alessa's tampering with it? Unless we're talking reboot, then no. Could they have done it before releasing SH2? Probably yes, but that's not the case. Now where does the series stand?


You must have played a different Silent Hill 2 than I did, because mine had this description of the Otherworld: "under the right circumstances, any man or woman would be driven, like him, to "the other side."

Alessa's existence is mostly irrelevant to anything in this game. There's only a single line in Lost Memories which even touches on this, and I'm totally cool with newer games ignoring it, because I thought it was pretty stupid to begin with. If this is the sort of minor plot point which makes you dismiss all the games after whatever game you first didn't like, I'll send you some laxatives for Christmas because wow.

Also, forgive me if I remember mistakenly, but aren't you really into Metal Gear Solid? I'd have thought plot holes would turn you on, to be honest.

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Subway Guard
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Missing since: 19 May 2009
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Quote:
You must have played a different Silent Hill 2 than I did, because mine had this description of the Otherworld: "under the right circumstances, any man or woman would be driven, like him, to "the other side."


So you're saying that similar otherworld events would be possible even before SH1 and Alessa? What I'm saying is that the otherworld wouldn't be the way we see it in 2 if 1 hadn't happened. (and thus the mirror world in 0rigins never should have existed)

Quote:
Also, forgive me if I remember mistakenly, but aren't you really into Metal Gear Solid? I'd have thought plot holes would turn you on, to be honest.


Yeah I'm a fan. Never really noticed any plot holes though. Retcons? Sure, lots of them in MGS4. Not in the style of "remember what was established in the previous games? Fuck that! This is what really happened.", though. (again, check 0rigins' mirror world)

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Agent of God wrote:
Yeah I'm a fan. Never really noticed any plot holes though. Retcons? Sure, lots of them in MGS4. Not in the style of "remember what was established in the previous games? Fuck that! This is what really happened.", though. (again, check 0rigins' mirror world)


Remember that time Snake killed Pettrovich Madnar? Yeah, that wasn't exactly what happened. Origins' retcons and MGS retcons aren't that different, in fact I'd say all the retcons in the SH franchise are way tamer than the stuff MGS pulled off.

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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Quote:
So you're saying that similar otherworld events would be possible even before SH1 and Alessa? What I'm saying is that the otherworld wouldn't be the way we see it in 2 if 1 hadn't happened. (and thus the mirror world in 0rigins never should have existed)


What I'm saying is I couldn't care less because that is the least important thing ever in Silent Hill mythology.

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
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Agent of God wrote:

Quote:
Also, forgive me if I remember mistakenly, but aren't you really into Metal Gear Solid? I'd have thought plot holes would turn you on, to be honest.


Yeah I'm a fan. Never really noticed any plot holes though. Retcons? Sure, lots of them in MGS4. Not in the style of "remember what was established in the previous games? Fuck that! This is what really happened.", though. (again, check 0rigins' mirror world)


Isn't that the very definition of a retcon? :?

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A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 29 Jun 2008
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Tomm Hulett is the current voice of Silent Hill and he says that "Alessa didn't create the otherworld guys. Get over it."

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 May 2009
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"What I'm saying is I couldn't care less because that is the least important thing ever in Silent Hill mythology."

The "least important thing"? Yeah? Fascinating.

"Isn't that the very definition of a retcon?"

It can also happen in the style of: after game X these characters did [this and that], actions that happened off camera.
Which is less painful than the other example I pointed out.

"Alessa didn't create the otherworld guys. Get over it."

Wasn't implying that she created the otherworld.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 24 Nov 2011
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Agent of God wrote:
Yeah I'm a fan. Never really noticed any plot holes though. Retcons? Sure, lots of them in MGS4. Not in the style of "remember what was established in the previous games? Fuck that! This is what really happened.", though. (again, check 0rigins' mirror world)

You must have played an entirely different MGS series than everybody else because the series most certainly does have those "fuck that!" type of retcons.

Silent Hill doesn't even begin to compare to the amount of rewrites and inconsistencies within the MGS series. And the latter is a series headed up by its original holy race of the Earth Japanese creator since day one.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
Excuse me. I gambled on your deduction ability being good.
Here, allow me to point it out more clearly: ''We're out of ideas regarding Silent Hill, so we're making original concepts that have nothing to do with Silent Hill and marketing them as Silent fucking Hill!''


And my point is, how do you decide if something does or does not have to do with Silent Hill? It's certainly nothing to do with being in the same universe, as I've already demonstrated. And I haven't advocated removing the actual TOWN or anything, but even then SH3 and SH4 demonstrate THAT'S not necessary either.

The only feature of the series that's consistent across the board is the presence of the Otherworld. That is the only storyline feature every game has, except for the focus on character study.

Quote:
No actually there's no need to replace the cult. You can completely remove it from the series (and you should, SH3 pretty much wrapped it's role up). But would the otherworld as we see it in SH2 exist without the practices of the cult and Alessa's tampering with it? Unless we're talking reboot, then no. Could they have done it before releasing SH2? Probably yes, but that's not the case. Now where does the series stand?
And don't bring up the 0rigins and (supposedly) Downpour retcon, 'cause once you start relying on bad writing mechanisms you should simply put the series out of it's misery.


Let's be honest, the cult really has nothing to do with the existence of the town's power. They worshipped a power that was already there.

Also, retcons aren't a bad writing mechanism. What do you even know about writing, professionally?

Quote:
So you're saying that similar otherworld events would be possible even before SH1 and Alessa? What I'm saying is that the otherworld wouldn't be the way we see it in 2 if 1 hadn't happened. (and thus the mirror world in 0rigins never should have existed)


Silent Hill: Past Life. Go read it.

Quote:
Wasn't implying that she created the otherworld.


Then she's not necessary for Otherworld events to take place. So what's your bellyaching about?

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 May 2009
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"What do you even know about writing, professionally?"

By that logic we're not supposed to debate any written work if we're not "professionals"?
As if that's supposed to mean anything.

"Silent Hill: Past Life. Go read it."

Thank you, I already have. It was actually pretty goo... OH! Wait a minute! I don't know anything about writing "professionally", so I can't really have an opinion on it! Silly me...

"Then she's not necessary....."

Relating to that I think I've already made my point. I'm not gonna play along and repeat myself for the third time.
Let's just make it clear that I always supported the "spiritual power always existed" thing.
Spiritual power + unique Alessa = the version of the otherworld we she in the games.
Anyway, here's to hoping this thread goes back to the subject of Vatra.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
By that logic we're not supposed to debate any written work if we're not "professionals"?
As if that's supposed to mean anything.


I wasn't bringing up to dismiss the credibility of your opinion; I was going to gauge what you know for my next few points before I end up patronizing to someone who might already know what I wanted to say and end up being a condescending asshole. My apologies if I ended up shooting myself in the foot there.

That being said, the point I wanted to make is that everyone uses retcons. Literally everyone who's ever written a good anything has utilized retcons in some form. All retcons are are going back and rewriting things you did before, even if you do this in the rough draft. Your problem with retcons isn't with their existence but with the egregiousness of their presentation. You've already gladly accepted several retcons. Heather's backround, Walter's nature, motivations, and actions, the nature of the "Red Devil"...

You don't want the retcons to slap you in the face with their obviousness, where a visible 'contradiction' is created. That's fine, and that's an understandable feeling. But the distinction is ultimately an arbitrary one, and a fairly subjective one. And I for one feel that if we want the series to continue, the developers need to be allowed to throw off the ball and chain. They've tried to stay connected to the canon Team Silent left behind and fucking no one was satisfied with their attempts 100%.

So our options are that the new developers either cut the umbilical cord, or the series dies.

Quote:
Thank you, I already have. It was actually pretty goo... OH! Wait a minute! I don't know anything about writing "professionally", so I can't really have an opinion on it! Silly me...


Chill your buns, homeslice, no need to get agitated. You seem to think Past Life is good. But it contradicts the premise that Alessa is basically responsible for Silent Hill as we know it. So what do you do? Do you reject it for creating a retcon, even though you liked it? Or do you allow your mental picture of Silent Hill to flexibly change to accomodate new content?

Quote:
Let's just make it clear that I always supported the "spiritual power always existed" thing.
Spiritual power + unique Alessa = the version of the otherworld we she in the games.


But there's Otherworld shenanigans in Past Life...

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 May 2009
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Quote:
You seem to think Past Life is good. But it contradicts the premise that Alessa is basically responsible for Silent Hill as we know it. So what do you do? Do you reject it for creating a retcon, even though you liked it? Or do you allow your mental picture of Silent Hill to flexibly change to accomodate new content?

There's Otherworld shenanigans in Past Life.


So Past Life, 0rigins and Downpour support the idea that the otherworld always was that way, right? But what happened in Past Life seems very different than, let's say James' otherworld.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
The enviroment doesn't really change, the vulgar and symbolic monsters as we see them in the games are replaced by dead people (?) from Jeb's past.
While it's certainly a nightmare enviroment, it's not obscure and alien in the quantities we've seen in all of the games.


I'm not arguing that it wasn't possible for these events to happen before Alessa, I just think it's obvious that Alessa changed something. Distorted the place's power. If you look at the otherworlds of SH's 1, 2, 3, 0rigins and Homecoming can we agree that they're all similar? To say that Alessa didn't change anything is rather ignorant, in my opinion.
That's why 0rigins' mirror world seems so out of place for me. What I'm saying is that by supporting that idea with future games will contradict the themes of older games in the series, resulting in a badly written universe.

And if people come together and agree to not care anymore about the series' mythology (and personaly I do care), should that immediately lead to free-canon, standalone, future titles? Or, as I'm suggesting, the creation of a completely new franchise?
Would you not have enjoyed Shattered Memories if it didn't have the Silent Hill name on it? I think we both would have enjoyed it just fine.

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 11978
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Okay. Time to get back on topic.

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"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?

Missing since: 07 Jul 2009
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Last seen at: Silent Hill - Downpour
I personally like to assume since the town was inhabited by Native Americans that the Otherworld was based off their spiritual powers and harnessed whenever settlers tried to take their land. That being said I wouldn't mind seeing a old-timey Silent Hill, back when the town was being constructed or settled in.

Anyway from my understanding VVatra is going down seeing as they've abandoned the patch for the Xbox 360, so that's literally not coming out. I don't really think any of this is Vatra or Tom's fault though I'm sorta blaming Konami on this one for not giving Silent Hill the support it needs. I'm just waiting for the day now that someone makes a "Similar" version of silent hill but sort of like Amnesia: The Dark Descent. Not gameplay wise or anything but atmosphere and indie for the people kind of stuff.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Sep 2009
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It's Vatra's fault for being unable to make a game that isn't littered with bugs and frame rate issues that also happens to look more like a game released in 2007 than 2012.

Just sayin'.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Vatra closing?
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Aug 2012
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Falconv1.0 wrote:
It's Vatra's fault for being unable to make a game that isn't littered with bugs and frame rate issues that also happens to look more like a game released in 2007 than 2012.

Just sayin'.


I don't think it's Vatra's fault. I mean, If I wasn't for Konami's pressure, I bet Downpour would be perfect. The game would probably been released latter, too.
And Downpour is not that bad. I had no problems with bugs like other people seen to been having.

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