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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room

Missing since: 25 Aug 2010
Notes left: 41
Even though Downpour is a far more enjoyable game, I'd recommend at least trying the Room first simply because of one area you discover in Downpour. =)


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
Notes left: 3828
Last seen at: i'm sick of these monkey fighting snakes on this monday to friday plane.
Personally i'd say SH4 shits on downpour.

SH4 has a much better atmosphere and creepiness. Downpour's atmosphere was not tense or creepy at all, and at some places it was just annoying(puzzle with re spawning enemies, yeah great idea). The environments looked interesting at times, but i never really felt tense or even nervous, there wasn't anything creepy or unnerving about them. Downpour was SERIOUSLY lacking on the scare factor. SH4's monster designs were hit and miss(like the patients, they look creepy but they burp which was a stupid idea) but overall much better than downpours(twin victims>any monster in downpour).

Story? Eh, downpours was ok. SH4's was better to me though.

Downpour has better controls though, i'll give it that.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 23 Mar 2007
Notes left: 468
Last seen at: Canada
SH4 has a better atmosphere and is leagues of creepy over Downpour (and the other games, imo).

However, SH4 is also infinitely more frustrating due to most enemies not dying and for another reason:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Your safe haven eventually becoming more harmful than the worlds beyond the holes in the wall.


It depends which is more important to you.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Mar 2008
Notes left: 1336
Last seen at: Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium
I still don't understand this neverending mocking of Silent Hill 4. It was a spectacular game storywise and stayed true to the atmosphere and setting of the series. And that's because it was made by japanese developers and had japanese horror, compared to american jumpscare/gore ala SAW in Homecoming (for example).

What bothers me is that, as soon as a new Silent Hill game is good in some way, people must immediately start and compare it to SH4 and say stuff like "Better than SH4, dont you think?", "This was best since SH3 guys!", "Bringing back memories from pre-SH4-days". I find this way of acting childish and very outdated. It's been almost 9 years and people still have the strength to shit and pee on SH4? You'd better compare Downpour to the other games made by western developers instead. SH1-4 is like a standalone series in itself.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Aug 2011
Notes left: 106
Last seen at: Turkey
^I stopped taking those people seriously when I heard them saying shit like "SH1 wasn't that good" and all.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
Last seen at: Chicago
Jonipoon wrote:
I still don't understand this neverending mocking of Silent Hill 4. It was a spectacular game storywise and stayed true to the atmosphere and setting of the series. And that's because it was made by japanese developers and had japanese horror, compared to american jumpscare/gore ala SAW in Homecoming (for example).


I do think SH4 is a bit underrated, it does have an excellent story... the best thing about it is that it manages to be a good story without feeling like it's ripping off SH2, which is something that the western games had a lot of trouble doing. I think it showed that the Japanese developers would have been able to continue to take the series in new directions without repeating themselves.

But on the other hand, SH4 does have some pretty big flaws, you have to admit. I really dislike that there is nowhere new to visit after the halfway point of the game. And revisiting all of the old areas again is made worse by the fact that there is so little different about them; Silent Hill in general has an excellent device, the "otherworld" device which makes re-exploring old areas fun, but they didn't even use that here. I think the 2nd half of the game was very rushed. At the very least, they should have saved getting to explore outside of your apartment for the final level, for pacing reasons.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Sep 2014
Notes left: 348
Last seen at: Kent (England)
No one EVER plays a SH game because it has good gameplay, at least no one I know. If gameplay is whats most important to you then my advice would be to avoid the entire series.

The gameplay in 1-3 and possibly 4 was non existent, (don't argue you know I'm right)

That being said they are still some of the best games of their generation and still widely played today, more than most other games of their age.

Downpour's enemy design was not at all bad and I was initially impressed with the game, but the more you play the more you notice the lack of variety, they use those "zombie" type ones you encounter first far too often, and it's not just the monsters: Every door to a building with a side mission and every balcony or window was IDENTICAL, even the smudges on the windows, same with the clutter, rubbish and pretty much every thing else was a little bit lazy.

There is also not enough mystery in Downpour, It is very obvious what happened to Murphy way way before you find out and that is unforgivable. (I think everyone who played it probably worked it out).

Another thing that annoyed me was that you loose your weapons far too often.

Whereas SH4 is not perfect either, Monkeys? no thanks, escorting Eileen could get a bit annoying at times, especially given that her character is in no way compelling, a bit bland really (I know SH characters are not supposed to be flashy but they are allowed to have substance). But I would've liked the affect of the flashlight used as its very effective in the first 3.

Between the two I definitely prefer The Room. The story had a lot of depth and I thought it was inspired, the Room itself (Henry's Apartment) was very well done and gets gradually more oppressive and foreboding as it goes on.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Especially if you put Walters doll in the item box.


Not a perfect game by any stretch but still excellent. As they both are.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Mar 2010
Notes left: 1875
Last seen at: Los Angeles
Its Gone Now wrote:
The gameplay in 1-3 and possibly 4 was non existent, (don't argue you know I'm right)

Since when does engaging enemies/bosses with a variety of melee and firearms, finding and using items to solve puzzles, and controlling a player character to explore an environment not constitute gameplay?


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Sep 2014
Notes left: 348
Last seen at: Kent (England)
I think people generally refer to gameplay as the way the game plays "physically" the thought provoking puzzles are not gameplay in that sense. However wonderful they are.

I'm not saying that I don't like them or even that I don't like the way they play.

Also in the first 3 specifically the only way you kill bosses really is repeatedly firing then perhaps moving and then firing again, I mean intelligent monster and level design does not mean the game plays well "physically".

There are some horror games in the PS2 Gen that play a lot better than SH (RESI 4 anyone), but does that make the overall experience better, the short answer is that it is entirely down to personal taste. Personally I think RESI 4 is more fun to play in a physical sense, but Silent Hill is a far superior experience overall.

This is made apparent by the amount of people I know that are put off of games like this because of the limited controls.

While they are fun and engaging to play they do not necessarily play well.

That is how it doesn't constitute gameplay (in the traditional use of the word)


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Mar 2010
Notes left: 1875
Last seen at: Los Angeles
Its Gone Now wrote:
While they are fun and engaging to play they do not necessarily play well.

I completely agree. I think your definition of gameplay is just different from what I understand it to mean.

The only interactive media labeling itself as a "game" that I would say constitutes as having gameplay that is almost non-existent is the visual novel genre. Any form of real input or player choice to guide a character (or even no character) and have them effect change in the environment, through puzzles, items, characters, etc., is what I understand gameplay to be. While the Silent Hill games might not have combat as deep as Bayonetta or Resident Evil 4 doesn't mean it's not there. It's just a little more shallow in that department, but makes up for it in other ways, as you mentioned.


I've been itching to go back and replay The Room, and I might have to see to that sooner than later.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Sep 2014
Notes left: 348
Last seen at: Kent (England)
Yeah The Walking Dead game is a good example, also Broken Sword type games that have a great story/narrative and are fun to play but don't have a lot of traditional gameplay.

And I wasn't bashing the early SH's for their gameplay because it says a lot that even with the technical limitations of the time that they are still among my favorite games ever.

I played through SH4 about 6 months ago and I already wanna have at it again. I love the Walter Sullivan story, and that apartment is so iconic now.

I could also play Downpour again now saying that. just wish it wouldn't judder so much. :(


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SHH Cult Subscriber
SHH Cult Subscriber
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 03 Jan 2005
Notes left: 4642
Last seen at: Colorado
I'm a bit late commenting on the above conversation, but...
Gameplay simply means a player's interaction with the game while playing through it. It includes all kinds various challenges, or enjoyable little random things like making Harry Mason hop backwards. It includes combat, exploration, puzzles, tasks, etc. Of course the early Silent Hills had gameplay, even if we go by what Its Gone Now is talking about.
And I happen to really like the gameplay in those games. It's not as simple or as terrible as some people make it sound.

It's got combat: You usually have a few or several different melee weapons, each of which has to be used somewhat differently. I particularly love beating monsters with pipes. You also of course have firearms, and while the aiming system was simple and doesn't change to a special zooming view, it's still purposely designed so that you've got to somewhat take care with your shooting; we play as average people who won't land every shot successfully, especially when shooting at a quick rate or shooting at a distance or at a moving target. We've got the ability to block attacks and to sidestep or backhop out of the way. Then of course, whether you took an enemy down with melee or a firearm, you usually still have to stomp on them to finish them off (or shoot them again, but why?), which is another element I really like.
The bosses aren't always quite as one-dimensional as people (such as yourself) make them sound, either. Sure, they weren't intricate as more boss battles tend to be nowadays. But, for example, with the lizard boss in SH1, you've got a specific tactic you must deduce from something you read (or figure it out on your own if you skipped the reading), which is biding your time until the creature opens its mouth widely to charge at you, then positioning yourself properly, and with just the right timing (so you don't get chomped), shooting into its mouth. The final boss in SH1 can clobber you pretty quickly if you don't get the proper method of dodging the lightning attacks, running in just the right size of circle at the right angle at the right time. With the caterpillar boss, you have to figure out that you've got to dodge in just the right way- preferably in a circle- and then quickly get turned around and fire at it before it's completely back in the ground and you miss your chance to hurt it. Like I said, still pretty simple but not entirely one-dimenional, just standing and shooting like so many people say. And I've only given a couple of examples.

We also have the option of sneaking by enemies. This can be desirable if you're scared and not wanting to deal with more confrontations at the moment, or low on items and not wanting to take a risk. Sometimes, particularly in large outdoor areas when it's daylight, we can easily run past them, but other times & indoors, we have to be more careful, turning off our light and being slow and quiet if we wish to get by. This adds an element of stealth, further deepening the gameplay.

We've got exploration: Silent Hill is often not a game with a narrow, set path that you must follow. There's quite a bit of exploring to do, inside and out. One may want to do it for the rewards- finding items that are tucked in nooks and corners- or simply for the experience of seeing everything there is to see, or for looking for tidbits such as memos that are posted and notes that are available to read. (It's kind of nice that these things aren't always required to be looked at or entirely obvious to find to a less observant, more rushed player. Subtlety and little extras are fun for some people like myself to discover.) I've sat and watched a friend play 1&2 for the first time and saw them go past many things, simply because they're not used to that. The exploration and discovery of things is an element of gameplay and not one that all video games have to such an extent, or that everyone is used to.

And yes, puzzles are gameplay, too. They're another way the player interacts with the game. And they're part of progressing. Sometimes the puzzles involve physically tweaking something to get it right, and sometimes they mostly involve thinking. Sometimes they're just little tasks that people don't count as puzzles, such as acquiring and using those two rings for the hand on the door in SH2 or acquiring and using the chemicals on the hand on the medallion in SH1 or the fluid and lighter on the vines in SH1 (etc.) These are all elements of gameplay. Things the player does.

And I, personally, am a fan of the gameplay in the early games, not solely the story and atmosphere. I also have zero complaints about the controls, but I could see how a modern gamer who's not played the early SH games before (or who hasn't been playing them frequently over the years) could be weirded out/annoyed with them. They're completely normal to me, though, and don't inhibit my enjoyment of the gameplay whatsoever.
:)

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Aug 2005
Notes left: 1506
Last seen at: Colombia
KiramidHead wrote:
2) The player character doesn't suck.


Are you saying that introverted people suck? I feel offended by your comment...

I always have said that SH4 is really gtood and you can backtrack my comments from several years ago in this forum; the monster designs aren't that bad (Although the behavior of the creatures sometimes is more hilarious than scary); I always found the victims reallty scary and I always feel sad because we couldn't have the complete 19 victims in the game (Some of them couild be ghosts and the others could be killable creatures like Twin victims)

People complain about Eileen but I never had problems with her, she is actually helpful (Not like Maria or Ashley); the subway world can be pretty generic but all the other worlds are awesome, the panopticon always gives me that uneasy and uncomfortable feeling and the building and apartment worlds have so much random stuff that makes them unique...

The classic misty and dark layers of Silent Hill appear in the stairs between worlds and these segments are so packed with lots of twisted imagery that arein the same level of the previous overworlds (Thanks to the great dedication of nur_ein_tier for allowing us to see all the cool stuff that the developers decided to hide from us)

It's awesome how they created such a cool story using random people from previous SH memos, (Wallter Sulllivan, Joseph Schreiber and Nurse Rachel) and I would liked to have more adventures with people from memos (Leonard Rhine, K Gordon, Officer Gucci, Patrick Chester, Jennifer Carroll) and more instead just creating shit from thin air (Like Homecoming did)

The worlds from SH4 could be a lot better if the second times you visited them they were totally dark so you needed to use the pocket flashlight, stuff like the pet shop massacre is still so damn creepy evenm in a totally illuminated area.

Now, Downpour is a great game and it is probably my favorite of the non-japanese games; it does a great job mixing stuff from all the previous games and it had a coupld of really creepy locations (I never dared to visit the totally dark basement with the milk cartons again). The 2 main arguments weren't really original (Again involving dead people) but the development team did a good job using the argument in a new way; some of the sidequersts are really good (My favorites are the gramophone and ribbons ones although both of them are just brutal) and I really enjoyed playing the game.

If you can play both games just do it, 4 and Downpour are pretty good although 4 is slighty superior due to all its innovative and original elements...


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Mar 2010
Notes left: 1875
Last seen at: Los Angeles
KageReneko wrote:
Are you saying that introverted people suck? I feel offended by your comment...

I believe you are reading more into that comment than they meant by it.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Sep 2014
Notes left: 348
Last seen at: Kent (England)
I have to say I agree with Phantomess about pretty much all of those points, some of my comments were probably a bit vague, gameplay is a very largely encompassing term as there are many aspects. I love SH1 and I wouldn't want anyone to think I was bad mouthing it, and I wasn't trying to imply that the bosses were one dimensional.

I was only referring to the physical fluidity of the controls or lack therof, not the puzzles or anything else.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 16 Oct 2012
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KageReneko wrote:
People complain about Eileen but I never had problems with her, she is actually helpful (Not like Maria or Ashley);

I'm assuming you mean Ashley from Resident Evil 4, which confuses the hell out of me. Why are you using an example from a game that isn't even Silent Hill and not, oh I don't know, Elle from Homecoming who did jack?

To be fair though, I liked Eileen. I just hated having to backtrack all through the second half of the game.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jan 2007
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Last seen at: Neely's Bar
Downpour definitely. SH4 was depressingly bad for me. In my mind it's just a grey, dull atmosphere and a guy repeating "what the hell..."

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
It's a tough choice. On the one hand, you have a game which completely fails at telling what would have been a pretty good story, that has bad controls, a bad combat system that you're constantly forced to endure, artificial inventory limits and a single save point that serve only to force a lot of needless and frustrating backtracking, unkillable enemies who harm you just by being near you, supporting characters that are bland and really hard to care about, and a dead background character who would have made a much more interesting protagonist, who basically discovers everything that's going on before the game starts, so that you, the player, don't have to.

On the other hand, you have Downpour.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Mar 2010
Notes left: 1875
Last seen at: Los Angeles
It's okay, Ryan, we all know of your deep-seated hatred for candles. You don't have to hide it anymore.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: This or Sh4: The Room
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
Man, fuck candles.

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