Chrissie The Nurse: Evidence For Vincent's "Joke"?

Heather finds out why it's true that you shouldn't talk to strangers. Or look in mirrors, quite honestly.

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Ashmodean
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Post by Ashmodean »

I think the whole idea of the monsters being real people is just silly. And a lot of times, completely implausible (nurses don't usually pack revolvers while working in a hospital)...
What if there are others stuck in the otherworld as well but teh player simply sees them as monsters. Someone else who is probably scared and searching for something carrying a gun for protection and they probably see the protagonist as a monster as well. Who knows.

I don't totally agree witht the idea either but it is possible.
While I agree that the Matrix is by no means on the same level as SH, it's by no means pseudo-intellectual or philosophically weak. The original movie was by all means a masterpiece, and the other two were almost as good. Yes, it suffers from being a Hollywood production, but it's probably the only movie that probably made absolutely everyone who watched it think atleast a little bit. And it does reference ideas that most people would've never heard of, like The Cave Allegory.
The Matrix is sci-fi in its purest form. It just has action in it and that makes snooty people look down on it. Anyway I would love to keep discussing this in a different thread instead of crowding this one with off topic discussion.
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Post by headkickrodeo »

Hrmmm....so you think the whole thing was an illusion? Even the police tape and dead human? I do like that better than the idea of a regular Joe running around, murdering everyone in sight and breaking into every apartment and hotel room he can find for hours without getting caught. :) I do think those alternate worlds (the vacant foggy world, and the otherworld) physically manifest themselves to certain people...I mean, if perception is reality, then I think it makes sense...especially when those alternate realities partly come from a burnt dead girls subconscious, something that James never even knew about.

And yeah, I was a bit harsh on the Matrix's fans (not the movie itself). But, while I love Plato's "Republic", and as much as I think the allegory of the cave applies a little TOO well to today's media, it's still almost the same message as the Buddhist "reality is an illusion" idea. The movie all but beats that little piece of symbolism into your head with the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

AuraTwilight wrote: All a conjuration of James', and a hint towards his past.
The Matrix lamifies itself just fine. I don't like it when people compare something intellectually respectable like SH to that pseudo-intellectual, philosophically limp-wristed angst-filled action movie marketed to insecure and ineffectual weak-minded 20-somethings...

Not a Matrix fan...
While I agree that the Matrix is by no means on the same level as SH, it's by no means pseudo-intellectual or philosophically weak. The original movie was by all means a masterpiece, and the other two were almost as good. Yes, it suffers from being a Hollywood production, but it's probably the only movie that probably made absolutely everyone who watched it think atleast a little bit. And it does reference ideas that most people would've never heard of, like The Cave Allegory.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Hrmmm....so you think the whole thing was an illusion? Even the police tape and dead human?
I know it is. It's a reference to the person James has already killed, being manifested as a psychological block to keep him from going where he's not supposed to, like the cliffs in the first game.
I do like that better than the idea of a regular Joe running around, murdering everyone in sight and breaking into every apartment and hotel room he can find for hours without getting caught. Smile I do think those alternate worlds (the vacant foggy world, and the otherworld) physically manifest themselves to certain people...I mean, if perception is reality, then I think it makes sense...especially when those alternate realities partly come from a burnt dead girls subconscious, something that James never even knew about.
Not quite. The mysterious power that creates alternate realities based on people's thoughts has been emanating from Toluca Lake before Silent Hill was even built, the power revered by the natives. Alessa merely gave the lake the ability to call out to guilty souls, virtually extending it's original reach.
And yeah, I was a bit harsh on the Matrix's fans (not the movie itself). But, while I love Plato's "Republic", and as much as I think the allegory of the cave applies a little TOO well to today's media, it's still almost the same message as the Buddhist "reality is an illusion" idea. The movie all but beats that little piece of symbolism into your head with the subtlety of a sledgehammer.
The idea of the Cave isn't that "Reality is an illusion", it's "What would happen if someone found out that was the case?" The movie repeats it so much because it's the theme of the franchise. And it's by no means the only philosophical idea it draws on. There's also good old fashioned Fate VS Free Will with a pretty damn interesting twist, the concept of Agape, the coldness of humanity and the humanity of cold steel.

People have written goddamned A-earning essays in academies and universities for their thesis, I swear to God.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by Ashmodean »

The idea of the Cave isn't that "Reality is an illusion", it's "What would happen if someone found out that was the case?" The movie repeats it so much because it's the theme of the franchise. And it's by no means the only philosophical idea it draws on. There's also good old fashioned Fate VS Free Will with a pretty damn interesting twist, the concept of Agape, the coldness of humanity and the humanity of cold steel.
Reality is an illusion is only there to break into the mind of people watching who literally never think of these things. It hits hard and completely supends disbelief as you can no longer trust what is "real". It leaves teh audience open to suggestion. I actually thought they handled the free will vs fate thing quite well in that all the decisions we make are simply the calculations that our brain does for us so there is no avoiding making the decision you are going to make. Understanding why or how you jusify making that decision is what makes us all different. I could get so much more into it but I would end up writing pages and pages.
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Implausibility

Post by michinobu_zoned »

headkickrodeo wrote:The person brutally murdered in the tunnel was killed by the first monster you find. Remember the dead human in the background? Later, there's police tape up. Some people think the monster that James kills was actually human, guess they don't notice the dead body you can examine in the back.

I think the whole idea of the monsters being real people is just silly. And a lot of times, completely implausible (nurses don't usually pack revolvers while working in a hospital)...
Hmm... Not sure about that.

Well, you don't really know that nurses wouldn't happen to have revolvers. I don't see it as being likely either, but if people were gradually becoming monsters, there's a chance that those who had yet to become monsters or monster-food would've freaked and start collecting weapons to defend themselves.

Based on the interviews with the developers it certainly seems like it's a thought that they wanted you to have, that maybe these were all people to begin with. The fact that one of the developers (I don't remember who it was on "The Making of Silent Hill" that said this) said that the monsters could be her neighbors or anybody makes one think that they did mean for that to be a possibility - though not explicitly proven in other games. Since Aura pointed out from her official fanbook that they're not all humans, it seems that later the developers may have decided to change their minds about continuing this notion in later installments of the series.

Perhaps because earlier episodes made it clear that the monsters were figments of someone's imagination? Or, at least their appearance as the SH2 characters saw them differently but they were still there physically.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

The monsters were never intended to all be humans. The thought is only put in the minds of the player as part of the mind screw and for characters like Leonard. People have never "gradually become monsters" or "monster-food", really. All the human to monster transformations are carried out by Claudia's ability to transfigure hearts; essentially mind control.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by Ashmodean »

The monsters were never intended to all be humans. The thought is only put in the minds of the player as part of the mind screw and for characters like Leonard. People have never "gradually become monsters" or "monster-food", really. All the human to monster transformations are carried out by Claudia's ability to transfigure hearts; essentially mind control.
I don't think that monsters like Leonard are actually monsters or at least nto the way that the player sees them. They could eb completely normal or given the religious themes he may have seen himself as some kind of divine being like an angel. The form you see him in is only a part of whoever's nightmare you are in (still not sure if its Heather or Claudia or both)
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Post by AuraTwilight »

I don't think that monsters like Leonard are actually monsters or at least nto the way that the player sees them. They could eb completely normal or given the religious themes he may have seen himself as some kind of divine being like an angel. The form you see him in is only a part of whoever's nightmare you are in (still not sure if its Heather or Claudia or both)
Even though Leonard makes movements impossible for a human to make?
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by michinobu_zoned »

AuraTwilight wrote:
I don't think that monsters like Leonard are actually monsters or at least nto the way that the player sees them. They could eb completely normal or given the religious themes he may have seen himself as some kind of divine being like an angel. The form you see him in is only a part of whoever's nightmare you are in (still not sure if its Heather or Claudia or both)
Even though Leonard makes movements impossible for a human to make?
Maybe, but when suffering from schizophrenia it doesn't matter what movements they're making. There's probably alot of things that aren't happening that Heather imagines to justify murdering innocent people, if this scenario were the case.

It could be that when Heather goes visit Leonard in his mental hospital room (what with the padding and all), and he goes off about Paradise being meant only for the believers and all, she just snaps and kills Leonard. Heather just snaps and kills a poor, innocent old man. Then afterward she's thinking to herself, "What have I done!? I killed that old man??? No, he wasn't an old man, I saw him! He was another one of those monsters! I had to kill him, I had no choice..."
Last edited by michinobu_zoned on 08 Jun 2008, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by five5sixers »

Are you suggesting Heather was suffering from schizophrenia or am I reading into that wrong?
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Post by michinobu_zoned »

xoxsnoof wrote:Are you suggesting Heather was suffering from schizophrenia or am I reading into that wrong?
Not really, I'm not making that suggestion. What I mean is it's possible for what Ashmodean is talking about regardless of movement, which is what Aura_Twilight was saying. The fight needn't even exist if everyone's imagining different things in Silent Hill.
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Post by five5sixers »

Alright, my bad then. Sorry for assuming that.

I think I'm with Aura on what Leonard is, though. I'm quite certain he's a real monster, not just Heather imagining him as one. Claudia transfigured some cult members into real monsters (a la Scrapper and Missionary) so I don't find it far fetched for Leonard to be a real one when he actually has a tie to her, and it's an incredibly negative one at that.
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Monster

Post by michinobu_zoned »

xoxsnoof wrote:Alright, my bad then. Sorry for assuming that.

I think I'm with Aura on what Leonard is, though. I'm quite certain he's a real monster, not just Heather imagining him as one. Claudia transfigured some cult members into real monsters (a la Scrapper and Missionary) so I don't find it far fetched for Leonard to be a real one when he actually has a tie to her, and it's an incredibly negative one at that.
But, that's the thing. His only tie with Heather is negative, and that might be why he looks like a monster to her. It might not be that way here, where everyone looks different to another person, but it if it were like SH2 then it very well could be.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Heather isn't hallucinating, she's in another dimension. The human monsters she sees aren't humans she's "hallucinating" are monsters. due to the nature of the Otherworld, they were probably transfigured into Monsters. The events of the Otherworld, though surreal, are actually happening. They're just in another dimension.

And I personally believe, since Claudia also contributes to SH3's Otherworld, that Leonard is given his monster form because he's seen as an abusive monster by her.
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Post by Ashmodean »

Even though Leonard makes movements impossible for a human to make?
I didn't say he had to be human. I'm saying that its possible that some of the monsters could be human becasue we allready know that people can see things differently. Just think if one o fthe monsters that you killed is actually a person searching through the town jsut as scared as the protagonist and to them mayeb the protagonist even looks like a monster.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Yea, that's never happened to any Silent Hill character, though.
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Post by Soulless-Shadow »

Old thread, I know, but I have some thoughts on the topic.

I don't think Chrissie, or Christie, or whatever her name was, is evidence for Vincent's joke. But I do think it has some meaning. After all, if the developers just wanted to add that name somewhere because it was Claudia's original name (like they did with Heather and Helen's Bakery), then they could've just added Chrissie or Christie to a shops name, similar to the aforementioned Helen's Bakery.

I'm sort of divided on how the nurse appeared right where a note said a nurse was. On one hand I think we're to assume Heather does indeed read all the notes, and then subconsciously conjured said nurse. But on the other hand, despite not having any evidence in any shape or form, I think that what happened to Chrissie/Christie left a sort of stain or imprint on that area of the Otherworld, and that, combined with Heather reading the note, created that particular nurse monster in that room.
Of course, as stated, I have no proof for that theory, and when I think about the incident in the subway station I tend to favour the first theory over the second.

Oh, and because is was mentioned in here, I think Vincent sees exactly what Heather and the player sees. He just finds it interesting because he's a sick fuck (for want of a better term. Though I believe it's an accurate description).
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Post by The Adversary »

Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle suggests the "nurses of the hospital transformed into monsters." I consider that a pretty clear indicator of the nurse's identity.

The fact Valtiel is repeatedly seen dicking around w/ nurses is indicative that, even if you die in the Otherworld you can be brought back via metempsychosis, as what Valtiel engages in is an act of purification.
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Post by Soulless-Shadow »

The Adversary wrote:Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle suggests the "nurses of the hospital transformed into monsters." I consider that a pretty clear indicator of the nurse's identity.

The fact Valtiel is repeatedly seen dicking around w/ nurses is indicative that, even if you die in the Otherworld you can be brought back via metempsychosis, as what Valtiel engages in is an act of purification.
It's been a while since I've read Lost Memories, so I checked it out again. It says "It may be that the nurses of the hospital transformed into monsters, but the details are unclear." I think that means it's up to the player to interpret what the nurses are and how they came about (and thus how Christie came about too). Though I wouldn't be surprised if they were transformed into monsters. After all, the puppet nurses and puppet doctors were staff that have been "parasitized by something".
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Post by Yuki »

My only issue with the majority of the monsters being human is that it doesn't make any sense; if Heather was going around killing as many people as there are monsters in Silent Hill, wouldn't there be like, some form of police task force or something after her? Some of them may be human, but I doubt all of them are.
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